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Old October 10th, 2013, 01:52 AM   #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
I agree with you that tram must be given a certain priority in Moscow bit it shouldn't be the only one.

Don't forget as well the Russian climate and snowfalls that make tram lines sick.
The reason, why Moscow should go for more trams (and it doing it, albeit a bit too slowly) is simple - the existing system have a number of flaws that a cheap to fix, and that can boost ridership in times for a small amounts of money. Again there is a fair number of chordal routes, that can't justify full-scale metro, but already to crowded for buses.

It, of course doesn't change a fact, that metro is Moscow's bread and butter, anyway...

Considering snow - for 7 decades russian trams operated nearly seamlessly during winter, but in 90th there was a great degradation of public transit, so many technologies was either lost from routing operation, or diminished greatly. For example, Voronezh, that produced many hundreds of tram-snowplows for russian, ukrainian and etc. cities are now totally devoid of any tram per se, save producing one.
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Old October 10th, 2013, 01:59 AM   #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
I just explained that priority in the development of public transport is determined by its size and population. In provincial towns, surface transport plays higher role than subway system. However, in large cities it can't be real alternative for Metro. That's why it not correct to compare organization and work of different kinds of transport in large and provincial cities. Different scales - different priorities.

Why I should to explain such simple things?
Your are missing (or underestimating the fact) the fact, that soviet-based city use 'pyramid' of transit modes, where buses and trams serves feeders to metro. This scheme worked perfected until 90th, when it was broken - surface transit, especially tram, was neglected.
For cost-effective transit in Moscow, the 'pyramid' must be reassembled, that's what all the pro-tram movement is about.
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Old October 10th, 2013, 10:04 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
This summer Czech specialists presented interesting table during transport conference in Novosibirsk.

Prague Metro: 3 lines, length of Metro lines - 59.4 km, average speed - 35.65 km/h, annual ridership - 530.493 million.
Prague Tram: 33 lines, total route length - 539.8 km, average speed - 18.57 km/h, annual ridership - 312.898 million.
And they in Prague build tram to Barrandov instead metro :-)


You must realize that you will not ever finish building metro. You must also develop other types of transportation. Now beside metro you have nothing - in Paris we can use buses, trams, and RER - in Moscow trams, buses, trolleys are not working at all.
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Old October 10th, 2013, 11:08 AM   #364
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The reason Paris has less need for tram is because Paris metro is ill planned. Line 4 has average distance of 424 m between stations. The Paris metro lines go near many places - but they are slow and inefficient because of many stops.

And I argue that for the slow, last kilometre transport metro is still inefficient compared to tram. Catching a metro train still involves leaving the sidewalk and climbing to the station. A street level tram network would be better - designed to connect with the fast metro at its stations.
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Old October 10th, 2013, 11:23 AM   #365
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And they in Prague build tram to Barrandov instead metro :-)
As I read, the actual plans for 2014-2018 are connected with extension of Line C to the Václav Havel Airport (four new Metro stations are planned to be opened next year). Also, they have plans for contruction of the new Line D.

Anyway, I don't understand your desire to contrapose these two kind of fast transport. The preferences in the choice of future kind of transport for definite area are depends from numerous factors - projected ridership, number of local residents, the covering of the other kinds of transport in this area, etc.

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You must realize that you will not ever finish building metro.
The construction of Metro has own limits. As it was declared, currently 22% of Muscovites not lives in the houses that located at an walkable distance from nearest Metro station. So, when actual plans will be realized, the pace of Metro construction will be decreased.

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Originally Posted by outage View Post
You must also develop other types of transportation. Now beside metro you have nothing - in Paris we can use buses, trams, and RER - in Moscow trams, buses, trolleys are not working at all.
As native Muscovite, I should say again that you greatly exaggerated the actual problems of ground transport (I don't know why you doing it). Yes, its operation is not ideal, and delays in schedules are not rare. But to declare that "trams, buses, trolleys are not working at all" is total BS.

I think, XAN_ desribed actual problems very good. In Soviet times, there were tables with schedule of routes at each stop of ground transport. As rule, ground transport operates according with schedule. In 1990s - when population of Moscow greatly increased (due to high migration of people from other Russian cities and post-Soviet states) and number of personal cars at the roads grew every year, but authorities did not have the desire and money for developing of public transport - these tables became non-actual and were removed from many stops. This situation was similar with processes that took place in Western Europe in middle of 20th century when many tramlines were dismantled in favour of car driver. That's when appeared high disbalance between passenger's demand and capacity of transport system.
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Old October 10th, 2013, 11:59 AM   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XAN_ View Post
Actually all stops already accept at least 30 m long trams, and further extending platforms (to reasonable length like 45-50 m, at least) isn't a problem on most routes.
What really drag tram down - years of neglect under misconception of tram being an outdated transport, that should be dismantled in a favor of extra traffic lane, and painfully slow boarding via first door only turnstile (even in 30 m long articulated trams...), resulting in timetables with hell a lot of padding (well, the latter are sadly true about all surface transit in Moscow).

Also, you must understand, that soviet-style subway are really fast due to fact it's designed with rather long distances between stations, but the cost of such speed - it's useless for a reasonable share of people if there is no surface transit to get people to/from metro. You should think about the Moscow Metro as analogue of NY express lines, and of Moscow tram* - like an analogue of all-stop NY services.

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*well, not just tram, and not every tram route... Trunk surface routes would be more correct analogue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by XAN_ View Post
Your are missing (or underestimating the fact) the fact, that soviet-based city use 'pyramid' of transit modes, where buses and trams serves feeders to metro. This scheme worked perfected until 90th, when it was broken - surface transit, especially tram, was neglected.
For cost-effective transit in Moscow, the 'pyramid' must be reassembled, that's what all the pro-tram movement is about.
Right to the point. Trams in cities of all sizes have some role to fulfil. So I don't see the point of this discussion.
In cities of size of Moscow, London or Paris it's subsidiary role. In cities of Warsaw, Budapest or Prague size it's still subsidiary but more important role. And in agglomerations of size up to million people trams play primary role.
I used to live in Stockholm. There's 100 metro stations and over 105 km metro network, not mentioning commuter rail. So urban rail network is relatively to the city size more extensive than in Moscow, but they're gradually restoring trams in the city centre, and constructing new fast-tram lines, because people are wasting more time to reach a nearest metro station, than to ride the metro when they travel to work or to school.
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Last edited by Petr; October 10th, 2013 at 12:07 PM.
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Old October 11th, 2013, 09:34 AM   #367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
The construction of Metro has own limits. As it was declared, currently 22% of Muscovites not lives in the houses that located at an walkable distance from nearest Metro station. So, when actual plans will be realized, the pace of Metro construction will be decreased.
Wishfull thinking.
Moscow transport is not only Moscow but also suburbs like Khimki, Vidnoje and etc. They will also need fast and reliable transport in future. This story never ends.
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Old October 11th, 2013, 10:02 AM   #368
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Wishfull thinking.
Moscow transport is not only Moscow but also suburbs like Khimki, Vidnoje and etc. They will also need fast and reliable transport in future. This story never ends.
Moscow Region and city of Moscow are two different federal subjects of Russian Federation. That's why city authorities have little reasons to extend Metro lines into suburbs - there are many judical problems with this, and existing Metro lines will be overloaded as result of extension into populated suburbs.

That's why improving of railway links with city is better solution for regional authorities.
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Old October 11th, 2013, 06:18 PM   #369
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In countries more developed than Russia and Poland all means of transport all integrated and network is organised on agglomerational scale, across municipal borders. In Germany for example, Berlin and Brandenburg are 2 different states, and it's not a problem. U-Bahn and S-Bahn have a common ticket system.
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Old December 28th, 2013, 07:39 PM   #370
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Alstom and Transmashholding presented a new tramway for Moscow:

http://sg79.livejournal.com/57816.html
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Old January 17th, 2014, 08:09 PM   #371
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New screens at stops are being tested. For now, only several of them are working properly. Authorities are planning to hook up each bus stop (over 15 000) to the system.


«IMG_7633.JPG» на Яндекс.Фотках

11.01.2014.

Anothern news noticed. On the buses of BRT line # 902 there is now free Wi-Fi access over Megafon mobile carrier.


«IMG_7675.JPG» на Яндекс.Фотках

13.01.2014.
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Old January 30th, 2014, 09:59 AM   #372
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Render of new Moscow trams maden by Polish manufacturer PESA. They will arrive for testing in March this year. Link:

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Old January 31st, 2014, 11:17 PM   #373
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PESA everywhere
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Old February 13th, 2014, 11:06 AM   #374
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New renders of transit hub next to the new Troparyevo metro station:



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Old February 20th, 2014, 07:06 PM   #375
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PESA for Moscow





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Old February 24th, 2014, 07:41 PM   #376
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Published on Railway Gazette:

Quote:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/u...-unveiled.html

Foxtrot tram for Moscow unveiled
24 Feb 2014



RUSSIA: Pesa revealed its first tram for Moscow on February 21. The new 1 524 mm gauge low-floor tram is branded Foxtrot, and will be delivered to the Russian capital next month.

Moscow ordered 120 trams from Pesa in co-operation with Uraltransmash in June 2013, with deliveries to take place between March 2014 and March 2015. All the vehicles will be produced in Poland.

‘The new trams fully meet the demands that we make of rolling stock supplied to Moscow. The capital’s residents will appreciate the quality of the new trams’, said Yevgeny Mikhailov, General Director of tram operator Mosgotrans.

The air-conditioned tram is designed to operate in temperatures between -40°C and 40°C. It is 26 m long with capacity for 160 passengers, including 60 seated. Maximum speed is 75 km/h.
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Old March 6th, 2014, 09:18 AM   #377
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On the 5th March, Alstom had tested their Moscow tram again. But this time, it was presented for bloggers. More you can find here (link in Russian):











The other tram - Pesa Foxtrot - will arrive to Moscow on 10th March for testing. Link in Russian. Again Foxtrot tram photos plus how it was constructed:













This article is also explains, why City Hall decided to buy PESA trams. Originally Bombardier wins the bid with Uraltransmash to supply 120 trams, but soon it was found that Canadians can't build such number of trams in short terms, so they ordered PESA to build instead. Moreover, PESA has very good boggie production, which was in part of contract. One question remained opened - where these trams will be produced in future if Moscow ordered more - in Poland or somewhere in Russia?
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Old March 6th, 2014, 03:51 PM   #378
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For me now an open question is how political cold-down in Poland-Russia and Russia-UE relationships gonna effect on this contract?
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Old March 6th, 2014, 08:58 PM   #379
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Russia is highly integrated into the world economy and no one wants to lose such a huge market.
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Old April 13th, 2014, 04:09 PM   #380
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How about that - Tatra, Alstom and Pesa trams in one place, taken from here:

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Last edited by dimlys1994; April 13th, 2014 at 09:13 PM.
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