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Old June 10th, 2013, 11:18 AM   #161
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Liaz 5292.22 of the last generation, new orders.

As you can see some drivers still like decorating their buses with different stuff. This trend used to be very popular in late 80s - 90s but now it's officially forbidden.









8 .06. 2013.
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Old June 10th, 2013, 04:14 PM   #162
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How much buses have Moscow?
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Old June 10th, 2013, 04:37 PM   #163
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Well, a nice site by a friend of mine - http://busphoto.ru/show.php?t=1&cid=110 count's up ~6200 buses, but that includes intercity buses based in Moscow, Police buses and etc.

If you are interested in urban transit buses only you can sum up the statistics of depots 1..19 of Mosgortrans - http://busphoto.ru/city/110/ by clicking on "list of the models" (switch to English is available in upper-right corner) for each depot
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Old June 21st, 2013, 09:53 PM   #164
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Moscow orders 120 low-floor trams built by polish PESA.
70 cars to be delivered by the end of 2014 and the remaining 50 before the end of 2015.

In Polish
http://www.rynek-kolejowy.pl/46058/P...dla_Moskwy.htm





PESA-Swing 120Na:


image hosted on flickr



Pesa Duo:



PEsa Jazz:
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Old June 21st, 2013, 10:19 PM   #165
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What the hell? Why they refused from Bombardier?

It's catastrophe.

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Old June 21st, 2013, 11:09 PM   #166
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That's strange. But we still don't have confirmation of this news from russian sources.
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Old June 21st, 2013, 11:34 PM   #167
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Do PESA have any experience of successful operation in the developed European states?
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 12:10 AM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
Do PESA have any experience of successful operation in the developed European states?
You mean, like, in Poland, Czech Republic or Hungary? Well yes, thank you, with more than 300 electric and diesel railcars, and more than 250 trams performing nicely one may say it's a success. Plus the contract signed in September 2012 with Deutsche Bahn for up to 470 Link multiple units with net worth around EUR 1,2 bln. Already delivered vehicles for companies in Italy seem to work as well.
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 12:15 AM   #169
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Well, they do have experience in Russia - Kaliningrad... Anyway, the story seams strange to me.
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 12:37 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WotaN View Post
You mean, like, in Poland, Czech Republic or Hungary? Well yes, thank you, with more than 300 electric and diesel railcars, and more than 250 trams performing nicely one may say it's a success.
Well, it seem that supplying of tramcars into two Eastern European countries is really great success for every Polish company...

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Well, they do have experience in Russia - Kaliningrad... Anyway, the story seams strange to me.
Kaliningrad is only 40th most populated Russian city. Knowing about its obsolete tram infrastructure and history of demolition of Kaliningrad tramlines during last 12 years, the buying of one low-floor Polish tramcar is the real progress for that provincial city.

But how it works for Russian capital with much larger financial opportunities and ambitious programm for development of urban transport? Why need to buy cheap second-class rolling stock?
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 01:15 AM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WotaN
Already delivered vehicles for companies in Italy seem to work as well.
They do

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Old June 22nd, 2013, 01:43 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
Well, it seem that supplying of tramcars into two Eastern European countries is really great success for every Polish company...
Considering how long history of PESA is, then yes, it's a great success taking orders from other than Polish cities (not countries, those do not buy trams). If you're interested in just countries after all, then PESA trams ride in two Central European, one Southeastern (+ one more in progress) and one Eurasian. I didn't include rail vehicles.

You can find portfolio of PESA here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PESA_SA (check out the models in the table).

Quote:
Kaliningrad is only 40th most populated Russian city. Knowing about its obsolete tram infrastructure and history of demolition of Kaliningrad tramlines during last 12 years, the buying of one low-floor Polish tramcar is the real progress for that provincial city.
I heard they wanted to order more. Unfortunately I don't know how it ended.
Quote:
But how it works for Russian capital with much larger financial opportunities and ambitious programm for development of urban transport?
Sorry, I don't know the answer. Guess we should ask somebody who knows how public spending is regulated in Russian state-owned companies, what are the criteria of choosing the contractor and product.
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Why need to buy cheap second-class rolling stock?
I would restrain from such comments since we still don't know the value of the contract nor the specification of the ordered tram. So we can't say it's cheap or second-class.

However, I'm sorry if you didn't like the PESA trams. I rode both Swing (in Warsaw) and Bombardier trams in Kraków and I don't find the latter any better (maybe except the design, and even this only in NGT8 model). But it's a matter of opinions. Where did you took the ride of PESA tram (or maybe heard the opinions of someone who did)? Maybe they don't pay too much attention to vehicle maintenance where you have been.
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 08:29 AM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
What the hell? Why they refused from Bombardier?

It's catastrophe.

It's a very good tram, not worse than Bombardier, Poland also produces Solaris Tramino which are even better (in terms of design).
Russia should focus on improving its tram infrastructure like Poland did, because condition of Russian tram rails is horrible, and these beautiful trams will be devastated because of it, its like buying Porsche for unpaved country roads.

Last edited by markfos; June 22nd, 2013 at 08:34 AM.
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 10:52 AM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
Kaliningrad is only 40th most populated Russian city. Knowing about its obsolete tram infrastructure and history of demolition of Kaliningrad tramlines during last 12 years, the buying of one low-floor Polish tramcar is the real progress for that provincial city.

But how it works for Russian capital with much larger financial opportunities and ambitious programm for development of urban transport? Why need to buy cheap second-class rolling stock?
You misunderstood me - it's totally OK that Kaliningrad bought PESA.
I just don't get what is going on in Moscow - is that PESA trams will be instead, or in addition to Bombardier order?
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 11:54 AM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XAN_ View Post
You misunderstood me - it's totally OK that Kaliningrad bought PESA.
I just don't get what is going on in Moscow - is that PESA trams will be instead, or in addition to Bombardier order?
Previously it was declared that Bombardier (in cooperation with Uralwagonzavod Plant) won tender for supplying if new tramcars in Moscow. 70 tramcars to be delivered by the end of 2014 and the remaining 50 before the end of 2015 (the same numbers of tramcars were mentioned in Polish article). So, if these rumors are correct, PESA will be work with Uralwagonzavod instead of Bombardier.

http://top.rbc.ru/economics/14/12/2012/836721.shtml

In April 2013 Bombardier and Uralwagonzavod signed new agreements at the Hannover Messe (world's biggest industrial fair) in Germany.

http://fedpress.ru/news/econom/revie...lichnogo-metro
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 12:10 PM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markfos View Post
It's a very good tram, not worse than Bombardier, Poland also produces Solaris Tramino which are even better (in terms of design).
If these tramcars are so perfect, why they not supplying in other EU cities in Germany, France, etc. The fact is that Bombardier has much larger international market. As it was mentioned, they even sell it to Poland (Krakow).

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=542

May be, Polish tramcars has better design (I'm not expert in design), but we should cooperate with leaders of transport manufacturing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markfos View Post
Russia should focus on improving its tram infrastructure like Poland did, because condition of Russian tram rails is horrible, and these beautiful trams will be devastated because of it, its like buying Porsche for unpaved country roads.
Although it's sad truth for many Russian cities, I don't think that Moscow tramlines are such horrible as you mentioned.
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 12:23 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
If these tramcars are so perfect, why they not supplying in other EU cities in Germany, France, etc. The fact is that Bombardier has much larger international market. As it was mentioned, they even sell it to Poland (Krakow).

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=542

May be, Polish tramcars has better design (I'm not expert in design), but we should cooperate with leaders of transport manufacturing.



Although it's sad truth for many Russian cities, I don't think that Moscow tramlines are such horrible as you mentioned.
Germany ordered 470 trains from Polish PESA for 1,2 bn €!, they checked the quality before this gigantic order and admitted its a top quality product.



http://www.railway-technology.com/ne...-deutsche-bahn

But as I said, your tram rail infrastructure is horrible, nowhere near to the Polish infrastructure so these trams will be in a poor condition if you don't improve it.

Your future trams

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Old June 22nd, 2013, 01:13 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markfos View Post
Germany ordered 470 trains from Polish PESA for 1,2 bn €!, they checked the quality before this gigantic order and admitted its a top quality product.

http://www.railway-technology.com/ne...-deutsche-bahn
Do you understand difference between trams and trains?
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 01:31 PM   #179
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^ yes I did, but it also refers to trams, we have them in most Polish cities and they work perfectly, do you think that Germany would buy trains from company which produces bad quality trams? I doubt. You can find PESA trams in Italy and Germany as well.

PESA site in Russian if you'd like to get more information.

http://pesa.pl/ru/
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 01:43 PM   #180
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Well I do understand the attitude. Its not well-known company. I would have also liked Nokia mobile phone way more than Samsung mobile phone. Some like 10 years ago. But times have changed and Samsung is the global leader now. Clever thinking made the company go all the way up. It's just the example of underestimating a company. Not related to the quality of products though. Give PESA a chance and if you don't like it for some reasonable reasons, then you can bash the company. Otherwise, I would strain from it.
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