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Old October 14th, 2010, 10:58 PM   #61
zlobna raca
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I'm not missing the point, I know exactly what he meant but his comparison wasn't appropriate. I seriously doubt that you could drive to Manhattan because I've spent some two years in NYC and there is no theoretical way that you can drive to work from Brooklyn to Manhattan during peak hours. It is just impossible within acceptable time. You can if you're willing to spend 3h in a car. Manhattan streets are anywhere from 3x3 to 5x5 and look at the congestion there and keep in mind that car ownership in Manhattan is only 25%. In all of the NYC only 31% of population drive to work and mostly they work outside Manhattan. That means 69% use public transportation.

Now take NYC subway (I'm not counting rail, PATH, airrail, buses...) for example with 5,100,000 rides daily. Can you imagine additional 5,100,000 cars on NYC streets? ChrisZwolle here is an expert so I ask him how many freeways should be built in NYC and how many lanes should be added to current streets so that the city could survive all that traffic? Newyorkers would probably suffocate on smog but let's leave environmental reason for another time. So the deal is 5,100,000 extra cars in NYC. So let's "solve" this with freeways and multilane streets...
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Old October 15th, 2010, 12:29 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by zlobna raca View Post
Tokyo itself is a living proof how wrong you are, also London is a very good example.
I take it you've never been to Tokyo, which has literally dozens of elevated expressways through the central core. Even with the very extensive public transport system in Tokyo, you still need lots of expressways. There is simply no such thing as a metropolitan area that relies solely on public transport.

London is a very good example of what not to do with road transportation.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 12:32 AM   #63
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Vehicle-free downtowns are pleasant though.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 12:35 AM   #64
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They are. But you can't expect all of Manhattan south of 59th street, or all of ancient Rome to be a car-free zone. Car-free zones need to be walkable from the nearest car park; 5 - 10 minutes to cross it from one end to the other at most. Not 3 miles.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 12:44 AM   #65
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Yeah, more than 10 min is too much, I think.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 01:03 AM   #66
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There is no one solution you need a mix of transport options.
Yes, but cars are still overused, even when there are alternatives.

It is impossible to replace them on rural-to-rural destinations trips, but on a lot of other trips it is. Personally I avoid using a car as much as possible, and for most of these trips buses and trains are not so slow or unconfortable. Where I live during off-peak hours buses are even faster than cars on peak times.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 01:24 AM   #67
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What's with this all or nothing approach to city centers/downtowns?
Areas which are completely vehicle free may not have the pedestrian footfall to ensure vitality. Some of the most successful urban streets do have cars - they just operate within a built environment which places them on a more level playing field.
For example by using shared surfaces and no footpaths which slows down cars and makes them compete with pedestrian traffic.
Think of the Ramblas in Barcelona - narrow street with wide sidewalks
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Old October 15th, 2010, 01:33 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zlobna raca View Post
I'm not missing the point, I know exactly what he meant but his comparison wasn't appropriate. I seriously doubt that you could drive to Manhattan because I've spent some two years in NYC and there is no theoretical way that you can drive to work from Brooklyn to Manhattan during peak hours. It is just impossible within acceptable time. You can if you're willing to spend 3h in a car. Manhattan streets are anywhere from 3x3 to 5x5 and look at the congestion there and keep in mind that car ownership in Manhattan is only 25%. In all of the NYC only 31% of population drive to work and mostly they work outside Manhattan. That means 69% use public transportation.

Now take NYC subway (I'm not counting rail, PATH, airrail, buses...) for example with 5,100,000 rides daily. Can you imagine additional 5,100,000 cars on NYC streets? ChrisZwolle here is an expert so I ask him how many freeways should be built in NYC and how many lanes should be added to current streets so that the city could survive all that traffic? Newyorkers would probably suffocate on smog but let's leave environmental reason for another time. So the deal is 5,100,000 extra cars in NYC. So let's "solve" this with freeways and multilane streets...
Impossible? I drove from the mountains on the Thruway down I-87 until I got stuck in traffic, luckily the Bronx River Parkway was only a few miles away so I took that alternative and drove across all the way to the middle of long island in about an hour maybe hour and half. I also took a car(wasn't driving on this one) and straight in the middle of rush hour from the middle of long Island to central queens in about an hour. I drove again to Manhattan in about half an hour after rush hour and lower Manhattan the traffic isn't bad at all, Midtown is alright, etc.

It's not impossible as you said the car ownership in Manhattan is low so off peak times the traffic is lower. You do have to factor in something about traffic in Manhattan and that is the amount of commuters that commute into the area is a very large amount and this is why traffic gets bad. Can you imagine how bad it would be without those highways in place? Can you imagine how overloaded the mass transit would be if cars weren't allowed into parts of Manhattan? Again you need both systems for things to work.

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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Yes, but cars are still overused, even when there are alternatives.

It is impossible to replace them on rural-to-rural destinations trips, but on a lot of other trips it is. Personally I avoid using a car as much as possible, and for most of these trips buses and trains are not so slow or unconfortable. Where I live during off-peak hours buses are even faster than cars on peak times.
How do you define overused though? I could maybe say that for my metro because we lack a decent mass transit system but in major cities around the world can you really say the car is overused? With a good mass transit system you are right that they aren't slow or uncomfortable, I loved the trains in NY but during off peak hours it was cheaper and quicker at times to use a car.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 01:47 AM   #69
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For me "overuse" a car is using it to make 1 kilometre, or when one's origin (or a park&ride) destination are near a mass transit stop (or even near a bus stop well served), especially when roads are saturated and when there is no space to enlarge them.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 02:01 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Vehicle-free downtowns are pleasant though.
Not Really , Car reduced downtowns are....Car restricted Downtowns are quiet....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
They are. But you can't expect all of Manhattan south of 59th street, or all of ancient Rome to be a car-free zone. Car-free zones need to be walkable from the nearest car park; 5 - 10 minutes to cross it from one end to the other at most. Not 3 miles.
Downtown Manhattan is the tip of Manhattan and has very narrow streets. Most of it is Car Restricted due to Terriosm concerns and New PED Malls. Most cities are copying NYC so , here in Urban Jersey we have Storage cars we only use them 1-2 a week , the rest of the week we walk or use Transit.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 05:26 AM   #71
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Not Really , Car reduced downtowns are....Car restricted Downtowns are quiet....
Maybe in the US..
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Old October 15th, 2010, 09:45 AM   #72
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They flood in from China and India. Their sole purposes are to turn Canada into their countries and steal jobs from Canadians. Vermin...
Um no. Canada is their country and without immigration, Canada would go into decline. Jobs should go to who ever is most qualified for them. The Canadian economy deserves no less than that. We're not running a charity here. You need to earn the job.

Canada was built on immigration and immigration is our future. Back to highways?

Some urban areas will reach a point where building more roads just doesn't make sense any more. Toronto? The 401 is already at 18 lanes. They could add another 6 lanes and they'd fill up tomorrow, but to what end? Do you want 50% of a city's surface area devoted to roads? Probably not.

Tunneling is an option, but a better response is a multi-pronged transportation approach and building cities that are less car focused or at least where people live where they work. Driving 40km to work then back each day is just stupid when you have 5 million people doing the same thing.
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Old October 15th, 2010, 03:41 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post

Some urban areas will reach a point where building more roads just doesn't make sense any more. Toronto? The 401 is already at 18 lanes. They could add another 6 lanes and they'd fill up tomorrow, but to what end? Do you want 50% of a city's surface area devoted to roads? Probably not.
Ah the growing pains of a city. If you have a growing population, you have more demand on your transportation system.

Highway 401 is the busiest highway in the world for a reason. Toronto has a very small highway system compared to other cities of it's size and density. That means the highways that do exist are heavily used because they're basically accommodating the traffic load of 3 or 4 highways.

Thus I would actually support widening the highway another 6 lanes, from 18 to 24. Those lanes (hopefully 2 are for HOV/bus) will help the highway move the insane amount of people that use it and will help it accommodate future increases because currently it can't accommodate the present numbers.
-Let's face it, very few new highways have been built here recently, thus priority should be widening/improving the existing system to make it more efficient and less congested.

I would rather see a couple mammoth highways rather than a bunch of small highways in the average city. This keeps more areas of the city highway-free and thus somewhat more pleasant to live in. Also, with a lack of highways, mass transit (hopefully rapid transit) is encouraged. Of course, exceptions do apply. There is no universal formula for every city and how it is to handle future growth.
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Old October 16th, 2010, 12:32 AM   #74
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Here are the plans for all the restored / expanded Railways in the Northeast / Mid Atlantic states. The politics , congestion , and population of this region make it easier to construct Transit / Railway projects. New England is leading the pack in there restorations and all New England states have agreed to stop building New Highways. There investing in there current highways and each city is getting a Railway and connecting service. Smart highways and HOV lanes are planned for some highways.


http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en...,19.753418&z=6
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Old August 19th, 2012, 04:10 AM   #75
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The state of Virginia's urban planners ether have a let it do whatever it wants or they still think it's the 1950's and 1960's where they can built more super roads to get us out of this population growth mess. The underlying mess behind it is that they build everything around one or two main roads in town and have tons of dead end bulb ed roads that come with in a few hundred feet of one another but don't link into one another which in turn funnels everyone on to the only main roads in town. At the same time they get slap happy with the stoplights and put up a stoplight every hundred or so feet on these eight lane wide main roads which helps really jam them up. What would help cut this down is if they linked up a lot of the side back streets and allowed local traffic to use them that way people wouldn't get funneled on to the stoplight infested over loaded main roads. Also in Northern Virginia they really should start allowing people to build taller buildings to take pressure off of the need for space for people. In that how can you build affordable housing when you are only allowed to build up two to three stories.
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Old August 19th, 2012, 10:06 PM   #76
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I think congestion is a "tragedy of the common" situation. Tolled roads that adjust their fees based on demand could remain free flowing, and the funds they generate could pay for expanding the most popular roads.

Still not everyone can pay expensive tolls and car and insurance payments, so public transportation needs to exist along with this. Ideally with more people discouraged from driving by the price, that will increase transit ridership.
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Old August 20th, 2012, 11:53 AM   #77
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Actually I think some parts of the Autobahn network is still not constructed for the current population and transportation of Germany. But even in the 10 million people metropolis of the Ruhr area, congestion is far less of a problem than in western Netherlands.
That may have to do with the fact that a pretty big portion of the people living there is (Thanks to Hartz IV) too poor to afford a car.
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