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Old August 20th, 2010, 11:11 AM   #981
hkskyline
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Originally Posted by Vrooms View Post
Yes if they dont have any baggage to collect. Changi has also put Duty Free Shopping(DFS) after or near the Baggage collection so that travellers will have time to buy what they want after collecting their baggage.
DFS is yet another confusing facility at Changi. Even though departing and arriving passengers share the same concourse, arriving passengers cannot purchase duty-free within this concourse until you are past immigration, where there is a DFS exclusively for arriving passengers. I was rejected a purchase once and asked to wait until I've crossed immigration.
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Old August 20th, 2010, 11:16 AM   #982
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I'm a Singaporean but I too, hate the waiting rooms.

From a security standpoint, I can understand why it's being done but honestly, if an airport cannot make sure it's airside is 'secured', then why bother having it restricted in the first place.

From a passenger standpoint, it is horrible. Changi's a major hub and travelers KNOW how inconvenient it is when one enters the secure lounges (no access to toilets and food and all). Making things worse is that besides the gate lounges, and the place just after immigration and customs, there are virtually NO SEATS available. So what results is that hundreds of passengers hanging out just outside the gate, sitting on the floor eating or taking a nap... It's still forcibly fine if it's for a narrowbody flight but imagine a Emirates B77W or Qantas A380, hundreds of passengers just waiting outside the gate, lazing around on the floor, either waiting for the gate to open (since it opens only 30 to 40 minutes before departure)... Not a pretty sight.

My rant doesn't end there. There are some narrowbody gates that have gate lounges that only sit 50... the worse thing is that these are concealed so unless one is a seasoned traveler, you'll have no idea that the secured lounge is THAT small. Imagine standing for 20 mins or so in the gate lounge, wishing for them to call for boarding ASAP.

I know that Bangkok has centralized security checks; they used to have it for individual concourses but has since moved it to immediately after immigration.
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Old August 20th, 2010, 11:21 AM   #983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Of course you would not to but need to get into the waiting room early because the gate normally closes 10-20 minutes before the departure time so the crew can prepare for push-back. I would not recommend anyone trying to make the mad dash at the end, or else they would risk delaying the flight. If everyone rushes in at the minimum time, it would just create a bottleneck at the X-rays, which is exactly what I see every time I use Changi. Moving the X-ray machines out to the gate makes the waiting and boarding experience quite painful, since passenger flows tend to be concentrated rather than spread out.

While there are many food outlets at Changi, the fact that you need to get to your waiting room early and are stuck in there after you pass the X-rays mean you really can't make the best use of your time to utilize the terminal's facilities. In fact, I don't recall seeing such waiting rooms in all the modern large airports I've been to. This restriction really hampers the passenger experience and free flow, while there is no added benefit as it just shifts the queues to the gate, which I think is far worse especially if I'm a bit tight in time for departure.

Putting the X-rays after immigration actually is a good thing, because people enter the restricted area at different times before the flight, so the crowds thin out, and there are already queues at immigration to control the flow, so the X-rays won't likely jam up unless they have a very few machines. In Changi's setup, you may get very bad queues at both immigration and security check. In fact, Changi's security check is usually bound for long lines unless you get into the fishbowl very early, and get trapped in there for a long time. At other airports I've been to, if I line up at immigration, most likely the security check won't be as bad (except in the US). You bear the pain in one but coast through the other. It's all about the nature of passenger flows.

Think of it as a funnel. You jam as you enter the funnel. But once you're inside, you won't get stuck again. Changi's setup is 2 funnels, which means you can be slammed twice ... and I have been slammed twice there in many instances.

So given Changi's setup, even though there are more X-ray machines than HKIA, the lines are worse. It takes much longer to go through the whole process at Changi than at HKIA. It's all about efficiency, and good use of equipment, not the numbers. I really wonder why they didn't fix that obvious problem for T3.
They didnt need to fix anything about Changi because it is best as it is. I wonder why HKIA didnt win the Best Airport of the year award this year......They only won best washrooms(Which i think Shanghai deserved) and best dining.
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Old August 20th, 2010, 11:23 AM   #984
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
DFS is yet another confusing facility at Changi. Even though departing and arriving passengers share the same concourse, arriving passengers cannot purchase duty-free within this concourse until you are past immigration, where there is a DFS exclusively for arriving passengers. I was rejected a purchase once and asked to wait until I've crossed immigration.
Then you must not have explored Changi. DFS is in the transit area.
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Old August 20th, 2010, 11:24 AM   #985
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrooms View Post
They didnt need to fix anything about Changi because it is best as it is. I wonder why HKIA didnt win the Best Airport of the year award this year......They only won best washrooms(Which i think Shanghai deserved) and best dining.
And you didn't notice in the past few years, the rankings shift between Changi, HKIA, and Incheon? Have you studied how they devised the rankings, and assessed the flaws in their survey methodology, and that interpretating the results alone is not so intelligent or wise?

I doubt Changi got up there because of its waiting rooms.
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Old August 20th, 2010, 11:25 AM   #986
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Haha ... yes, I notice that as well. But at the end of the day, the facts and logic will rule the day.
Facts and logic will rule the day!! I sure it will. Like i said if HKIA is so great why did it not win the skytrax airport of the year award this year?? Face it ratings are falling for HKIA.
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Old August 20th, 2010, 11:27 AM   #987
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
I doubt Changi got up there because of its waiting rooms.
I didnt say that it got there because of its waiting rooms it got there because it is better!
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Old August 20th, 2010, 11:40 AM   #988
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrooms View Post
Facts and logic will rule the day!! I sure it will. Like i said if HKIA is so great why did it not win the skytrax airport of the year award this year?? Face it ratings are falling for HKIA.
Ah .. so you don't understand what Skytrax is doing. Are you aware their poll is open to anyone on the street, and there are no sample population controls to make a consistent comparison, among many other flaws? I guess you didn't study statistics.

Here's some food for thought for you when blindly interpreting results of "surveys" that actually are not mathematically sound.

Problem 1 : Anyone can vote, even those who have never flown before. It was an open internet poll. There was no way to verify every vote was based on actual experiences. Anyone with a computer connection to the net can vote, more than once, and without basis. Other surveys are susceptible to voting without basis, but they control the sample population to professionals, such as travel agents and those in the trade. This is Skytrax's biggest problem. How reliable would you place on such a poll's result?

Problem 2 : Lack of Controlled Variables - Among the 10 million votes that comprise the poll, how do you know they all went to the same list of airports so they could derive a consistent opinion that can be compared? If I visited 20 airports in the world and picked HKIA, and another person visited 2 airports in the world and picked Stansted, can we really compare the 2 opinions? You can even get a person who voted and never visited an airport and picked Lhasa.

Problem 3 : Variability - have you reviewed how close Changi was to the other contenders? Skytrax did mention in one of the prior year's polls that it came extremely close to HKIA. Every sound survey has a statistical margin of error. If the outcome comes within certain thresholds of this margin, then the results become clouded and a clear 'winner' cannot really be conclusively determined.

There are mathematical terms behind all these problems, such as sample error, confidence intervals, and so on. But I think more layman's terms are needed since you simply don't understand what a good survey is but blindly go straight to interpreting results. I've raised this concern about Skytrax in a few other threads in the aviation section in the past. Worthwhile for you to take a look before you jump to conclusions with these surveys.
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Old August 20th, 2010, 11:42 AM   #989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrooms View Post
Then you must not have explored Changi. DFS is in the transit area.
No. I was in the shared concourse, and I was rejected the purchase. Time for you to explore again the next time you arrive at the terminal. Either you don't know what you're talking about or some incompetent worker served me.
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Old August 20th, 2010, 11:48 AM   #990
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
No. I was in the shared concourse, and I was rejected the purchase. Time for you to explore again the next time you arrive at the terminal. Either you don't know what you're talking about or some incompetent worker served me.
You really can buy DFS in the Transit Area HkSkyline. I feel that you as a moderator shouldnt be encouraging arguements. I mean talking about Singaporeans like that is not right. I just posted a positive comment about Cathay Pacific and come here to see someone from the airlines country talking down on my country and people. Its just not right....
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Old August 20th, 2010, 11:56 AM   #991
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Here is a photo showing a gate lounge departure situation at KLIA, which adopts a similar gate lounge approach as Changi.
image hosted on flickr



Typical gate lounges at KLIA. It'd be nice if the glass screens of gate lounges can be removed.
image hosted on flickr



Common Departure/Arrival Concourse Area outside Gate Lounges at Changi T3.
image hosted on flickr

Last edited by ad50939; August 20th, 2010 at 06:52 PM.
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Old August 20th, 2010, 12:04 PM   #992
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
No. I was in the shared concourse, and I was rejected the purchase. Time for you to explore again the next time you arrive at the terminal. Either you don't know what you're talking about or some incompetent worker served me.
hkskyline, did they ask for your passport? I know Singaporeans on arrival are NOT ALLOWED to purchase from DFS until AFTER immigration. Although if you're caucasian, they MIGHT bend the rules abit... I managed to buy an iPod but after payment, they were seriously considering refunding my money.
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Old August 20th, 2010, 12:22 PM   #993
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddes View Post
hkskyline, did they ask for your passport? I know Singaporeans on arrival are NOT ALLOWED to purchase from DFS until AFTER immigration. Although if you're caucasian, they MIGHT bend the rules abit... I managed to buy an iPod but after payment, they were seriously considering refunding my money.
Interesting. When I brought my bottle of alcohol to the register with my passport clearly visible in my hand, the cashier asked if I was arriving, and then told me I could not purchase as I had to wait until past immigration. I was not asked specifically if I was Singaporean actually. Perhaps there is some confusion over the process by the staff thinking I'm a local. Let me try again the next time I'm in town.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlagshipV View Post
You really can buy DFS in the Transit Area HkSkyline. I feel that you as a moderator shouldnt be encouraging arguements. I mean talking about Singaporeans like that is not right. I just posted a positive comment about Cathay Pacific and come here to see someone from the airlines country talking down on my country and people. Its just not right....
I don't think I'm encouraging arguments at all. I responded to comments and highlighted unreasonable and unsound points, much like any other forumer with sufficient knowledge will do. That's the nature of intelligent discussion. I tend to get quite **** when people blindly say things without sufficient basis or thought, so perhaps the tone was not so pleasant. But I don't think people should interpret that as some talk-down of a country. After all, I targeted waiting rooms very specifically, then the problems with airport surveys. How can that be generalized into talking down your country, I don't know. That smells like a rather unreasonable interpretation of my words.

As a moderator, I'm responsible for maintaining content and also discussing issues. Stepping in when I see a problem is definitely within my responsibility, and everyone's responsibility. I'd encourage anyone who is interested and has sufficient knowledge of the material to provide their intelligent input so we can all contribute to an intelligent discussion that SSC is here for. Please ask questions and challenge me if you find my thoughts to be unsound or not clear.

And people ought to be less defensive to interpret one problem as being a let-down on a whole people. I don't see how the two can connect like that. Better to stick to the facts.

I don't recall saying Changi is a bad airport overall. I never opined on that. I just said the waiting rooms and X-ray machines are disastrous. If you want me to give a positive thought to make your day, I'd say the greenery and T3 ceiling designs are wonderful.
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Old August 20th, 2010, 05:58 PM   #994
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Try to work out the logic for the gate lounge and the associated security screening issues.

It is clear that the adoption of common departure/arrival concourse will dictate the use of the secured gate lounge arrangement. Otherwise, the uncontrollable encounters between departing and arriving passengers in the common concourse would present a security risk to flight operation.

Then, what are the rationale for adopting common departure/arrival concourse? My theory is that terminal of this configuration is cheaper to build and operate.

Use of common concourse would save substantial floor area of the dedicated route from the arrival gates to the immigration. Total number of travelators would be half of that required for separate departure and arrival concourses. Because the traffic along concourses is more balanced in both ways, better utilization of travelators can be acheived. From passengers' perspective, they can enjoy pretty much the same ambience and same level of services and amenities no matter they're departing, arriving or transiting.

I believe that these were the considerations in the mind of the designers of Changi back in 1970's.

The same configuration was adopted in T3 simply because of the need for compatibility with T1 and T2.

Here is an old photo of T1 concourse taken in the summer of 1990.
image hosted on flickr

Last edited by ad50939; August 20th, 2010 at 06:52 PM.
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Old August 20th, 2010, 06:03 PM   #995
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Err, can we be more restrained people? Seriously, is there really a need for "mine is better than yours" argument? I mean, really, each airport has its strength and weaknesses. I for one agree with ddes regarding the waiting room. I mean seriously, can't we have the liberty to move around in the airport while waiting for our flight? My 2 cents.......
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Old August 27th, 2010, 07:34 PM   #996
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TERMINAL 3
image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


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Old August 28th, 2010, 03:15 PM   #997
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Can anyone confirm how many aero-bridges T1, T2 and T3 have?... I checked out Google Earth, and I think I counted 91 (which would be massive) - however, I'm not sure how old the shots are, and there was still some construction going on, so it may even be more than that!!
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Old August 28th, 2010, 04:28 PM   #998
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
Can anyone confirm how many aero-bridges T1, T2 and T3 have?... I checked out Google Earth, and I think I counted 91 (which would be massive) - however, I'm not sure how old the shots are, and there was still some construction going on, so it may even be more than that!!
According to Wikipedia Changi Airport has 92 aerobridges.

Here's the breakdown:
Terminal One -29 aerobridges
Terminal Two -35 aerobridges
Terminal Three -28 aerobridges
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Old August 29th, 2010, 02:39 PM   #999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrooms View Post
According to Wikipedia Changi Airport has 92 aerobridges.

Here's the breakdown:
Terminal One -29 aerobridges
Terminal Two -35 aerobridges
Terminal Three -28 aerobridges
d'oh... I could have checked there myself. but thanks!

Must be a world record - can't see too many other airports have any more than that.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 02:49 PM   #1000
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Quote:
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d'oh... I could have checked there myself. but thanks!

Must be a world record - can't see too many other airports have any more than that.
Most gates have 2. Don't tell me they count those as 2.
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