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Old June 8th, 2006, 08:53 PM   #181
Monkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YelloPerilo
You know what, I have read a fair share of "Western" philospher's works ... not only that, but also in their native languages.
Well bully for you.... though frankly I couldn't care less....
Quote:
Originally Posted by YelloPerilo
You were the one who claimed to know loads about China, in fact you know very little.
I do know loads about China. However, as you would know if you read my post properly, I don't have to know anything about China whatsoever to recognise blatant intellectual property theft when I see it! I mean what difference does it make how much I know (or don't know) about Chinese philiosophers? It's a total irrelevance!
Quote:
Originally Posted by YelloPerilo
Of course, I am unpleasant, because I can unveil your ignorance and arrogance ...
No I'm anything but ignorant.... wheras you've always been unpleasant, unintelligent, and uninteresting (nasty, stupid, and boring).

Last edited by Monkey; June 9th, 2006 at 03:11 AM.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 09:06 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
But I do know plenty about China. However I don't have to know anything about China whatsoever to recognise blatant intellectual property theft when I see it! I mean what difference does it make how much I know (or don't know) about Chinese philiosophers? It's a total irrellevance. I thought I made that clear in my last post. Maybe read my poststs more carefully next time.... So.... are you blaming expats for China's software/media piracy now?
No, piracy is a world-wide issue, not China-specific. In this hallway we have some ten US graduate students, all but one use pirated software. My American labmate acutally let me share his piracy (Oh yeah, I am not good either). Some hypocratic people like you make certain issue unproportationally against China just because your guys are jealous of China.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 09:35 PM   #183
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even chinese government is convinced about the problem of intellectural-piracy in their country.

but yes its true... the only reason why we discuss all the time with you guys is because we hate china. Damn it, now you found it out.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 09:52 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
but yes its true... the only reason why we discuss all the time with you guys is because we hate china. Damn it, now you found it out.
Of course, this is the truth. How many German were even interested in Rwanda Massaca? And How many German are interested in China's human rights?

When China was defenseless against west 100 years ago, the west just openly talked about "yellow periol". But now, they have to switch the tone, using "human rights and democracy", which basically serve the same purpose.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 10:01 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wigo
No, piracy is a world-wide issue, not China-specific. In this hallway we have some ten US graduate students, all but one use pirated software. My American labmate acutally let me share his piracy (Oh yeah, I am not good either). Some hypocratic people like you make certain issue unproportationally against China just because your guys are jealous of China.
Oh what nonsense! I am not jealous of China! Nor am I mean about it. Indeed generally I am very pro-China and Chinese culture. I just find the reaction of Chinese forumers to any criticism whatsoever as being excessively prickly. It seems I'm not the only one! I think you guys are the one's with the issues. You respond very badly to the slightest hint of criticism - even where such criticism is well deserved - as it so obviously is with this Maglev case.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 10:17 PM   #186
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@wigo: you believe that?

Human rights in china are also your rights.

btw... the west has changed a lot over the last 100 years, as china has.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 10:28 PM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
@wigo: you believe that?

Human rights in china are also your rights.
Human rights are integral part of economic development and social progress. And as a society getting rich, people get more freedom. On the contrary, the meer existence of "democracy' in a poor country does not work very well. So when the west talk about human rights, they usually don't talk about economic development.

BTW, in China, I don't feel oppressed because I, like most of chinese, don't have problem with current political institution.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 10:29 PM   #188
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the first maglev train for the maglev line in munich is being produced right now:


article unfortunately in german:
http://hna.de/wirtschaftstart/00_200..._Hochzeit.html

http://www.hna.de/netcontentmedia/im...onlinebild.jpg
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Old June 8th, 2006, 10:48 PM   #189
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Human rights are integral part of economic development and social progress. And as a society getting rich, people get more freedom.
now this is exactly not true...

Why should the communist party of china give up their influence and install a system like in Germany or GB just because the wealth of the population is growing?

for sure not. They are using that growth to stabilize the one-party system.
And as long as they have a one-party-stystem they wont have a freedom of the press and no internet censur.

Personally I do not believe, that you will ever get the chance to elect your prime minister, like i can do,critsize the poltical system without getting troubel and so on......

No matter how rich china is....

And this is exactly what I am afraid of....

1.5 billion people, not interested in democracy and the freedom of the press, because the have a nice, rich life and dont care about that, and one party, with the whole power, that comes out of that constellation......

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Old June 8th, 2006, 11:08 PM   #190
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A political system is primarily served to address people's concern, not just to attract some praise. And if not every needs can be satisfied, then it should dedicate to solve the most urgent ones. As a poor country with still 150 millions poor people in Chinese standards, it's obvious that lifting people out of poverty is far more important than anything else. In tems of poverty alleviation, China's effeciency is no match in anywhere around the world.

I can't accurately predict the future but I know the grassroot has been implemented and expanded in China.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 11:34 PM   #191
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I agree with you on the poverty aspect.

But in lets say 10 years from now, poverty will be no issue in china any more
( at least we all hope that)
And even if it takes 20 years...

My concern is for the time after that....what happens when you have 1.5 bn chinese having the life standard, and the income of lets say italy or spain per capita, and still have one party with one man at its head ruling the whole thing???????

Still not being allowed to browse the websites that the Communist party blocked?
Still not being allowed to elect their politicians......
And therefore still not having the same human rights as they have in other countries, e.g. Japan or Australia.........

To get that, it would mean that the communist party is giving up power, contro, influence........and to be honest, I doubt they will do that just for genourousness


you said you can't accurately predict the future but you know the grassroot has been implemented and expanded in China.

That true, but what grassroot is that??
Imo china is on the best way, to be the biggest, and economically most powerfull dictatorship that mankind ever saw in history.

But what does that mean for the world, and for chinese citizens?
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Old June 9th, 2006, 01:54 AM   #192
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pflo777, it seems to me that you worry too much.
Democracy is the trend of the developement, everyone even the CPP is fully aware of that. Human rights have been greatly improved in recent years, and remember that China has just written about respecting human rights into its constitution.
Media in China is of course censored, but people now enjoy much more freedom of speech and so forth compared to say 5 years ago, so my point is, don't be so pessimistic, you've seen the trend and nobody can stop it.
Now election. In fact, China is now implementing elections in villages, as well as in a number of towns. So from every aspect, I see improvement.

It seems to me that the outsiders always wish or seem to wish to have the CPP step down from power the next day, and China will then be better off. But the Chinese don't see it this way, because of what other countries, like Russia and India, have been through. And also because of the suppression we have had in history, so we wish to have a stable and strong country first so that others can not bully us.
We'll find our own route to achieve democracy, and we'd like to do it step by step.

One more note about China's poverty problem. I don't think they will sort everything out in ten years time to be frank. And to catch that of Spain, not in 30 years, you can try doing the maths assuming China's economy will continue to boom at the same pace.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 06:46 AM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
But I do know plenty about China. However I don't have to know anything about China whatsoever to recognise blatant intellectual property theft when I see it! I mean what difference does it make how much I know (or don't know) about Chinese philiosophers? It's a total irrelevance! I thought I made that clear in my last post. Maybe read my poststs more carefully next time....
Your points are totally irrelevant. You brought up the point that you knew load about China, then I pointed out to you that your China knowledge cannot possibly be more extensive than a local Chinese and you agree. So, what did you bring it up in the first place?

I never made any connection between your China knowledge and your ability to spot IP violation, I don't know what point you are trying to prove with your China knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
So.... are you blaming expats for China's software/media piracy now?
If they buy pirated software, music or video, then they are contributing to China's piracy problem, so yes, they should bear part of the blame.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 06:52 AM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
now this is exactly not true...

Why should the communist party of china give up their influence and install a system like in Germany or GB just because the wealth of the population is growing?

for sure not. They are using that growth to stabilize the one-party system.
And as long as they have a one-party-stystem they wont have a freedom of the press and no internet censur.

Personally I do not believe, that you will ever get the chance to elect your prime minister, like i can do,critsize the poltical system without getting troubel and so on......

No matter how rich china is....

And this is exactly what I am afraid of....

1.5 billion people, not interested in democracy and the freedom of the press, because the have a nice, rich life and dont care about that, and one party, with the whole power, that comes out of that constellation......

People have different priorities, if making money and feeding their families are their top priority, then democracy and free elections will have to take a back seat. The Chinese do not see democracy as an end, but only as means, if democracy can lead to better prosperity than a dictatorship, then democracy's time will come. There is no point to get democracy just for the sake of democracy. The role of the government should not be to champion a particular political or religous ideology, but to serve the needs of its people. So, if 1.5 billion Chinese decide that as long as they have a nice and rich life, they don't need democracy, then so be it. Who are you to tell the Chinese how they should think and what they should want?
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Old June 9th, 2006, 08:37 AM   #195
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I believe some people have this misguided believe that Chinese people can't think for themselves as they are being brainwashed by CCP propoganda. Because they live in 'free society' and believe in concept of democracy as a basic right, they have deveoped a certain absolutist view in this respect. This is not different from certain missionaries/zealots who that think that all heathen / infidels must be converted to their religions.

Anyway, here's my 2 cents: Democracy is an ideal that many people aspire to have. But it's not a cure all for every country. There are advantages and disdavantages that come with it.

IMHO China does not need democracy right now. Under the current system in China, the politicians / leaders have to undergo long period of trainings and were selected or promoted base on their capabilities, intelect and honesty. Thus someone like Bush is unlikely to make it to the top. These leaders can make long term decisions to improve the country as they don't need to spend too much time bickering with other politicians and involved in campaigning and fund raisings.

Sometime in the future, when the middle class grow huge enough, people will demand to have more say in the selection of leaders. Then China would need to develop a system that cater for this demand. Even then, it should be based on a system that emphasises harmony rather than confrontation / bickering like the current system that's developed by the West.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 09:46 AM   #196
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Old June 9th, 2006, 10:18 AM   #197
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Quote:
People have different priorities, if making money and feeding their families are their top priority, then democracy and free elections will have to take a back seat. The Chinese do not see democracy as an end, but only as means, if democracy can lead to better prosperity than a dictatorship, then democracy's time will come. There is no point to get democracy just for the sake of democracy. The role of the government should not be to champion a particular political or religous ideology, but to serve the needs of its people. So, if 1.5 billion Chinese decide that as long as they have a nice and rich life, they don't need democracy, then so be it.

especially the last sentence makes your mail sound quite funny

If 1.5 billion chinese decide......
They cannot decide as there is no democracy.
They simply have no right to decide, none of them.

You argue, as if the chinese people elected their government, as if they elected the CCP to do what it does....

What will come after the economic growth? What, when chinese economy strarts to stagnate, when the income doesnt rise for lets say 10 years?
Thats not so much a question of democracy or not, but of the saturation of demand, that sooner or later will occur......

@gaoanyu: I appreciate your mail very much. Thats also what I hope that will happen.... we`ll see...
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Old June 9th, 2006, 11:20 AM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
especially the last sentence makes your mail sound quite funny
It's called a post, not a mail. I find it funny that you find the last sentence of my post funny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
If 1.5 billion chinese decide......
They cannot decide as there is no democracy.
They simply have no right to decide, none of them.
People can make their decisions in many many ways, and violent uprising is only one of them. People always have the choice to be the master of their fates, they can choose to risk their lives and wellbeing to rise up against an oppressive government, and they can choose to be ruled under an oppressive government. The bottom line is, that's their choice and they pay for the consequences of that choice. You, as an outsider, do not have the right to tell other people what to do or what to think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
You argue, as if the chinese people elected their government, as if they elected the CCP to do what it does....
Election is only one decision that people can make, the simple fact that CCP is still allowed to stay in power shows that the Chinese people have made the decision that having CCP for now is better than starting a civil war to overthrow it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
What will come after the economic growth? What, when chinese economy strarts to stagnate, when the income doesnt rise for lets say 10 years?
Thats not so much a question of democracy or not, but of the saturation of demand, that sooner or later will occur......
I'm afraid you are living in a dream world. In the foreseeable future, the Chinese economy is not likely to stagnate and the income will keep rising. If one day, the Chinese economy starts to stagnate, the Chinese people will just make up their mind about whether it's the government's fault and whether they should risk their lives and possessions to start a civil war to bring about the change of a government.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 11:29 AM   #199
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so you think a civil war is the only way, china could get a real democracy?


Edit: I dont think its good that you have to risk your life to get a change in the governemt.

Last edited by pflo777; June 9th, 2006 at 11:53 AM.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 11:40 AM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didu
Your points are totally irrelevant. You brought up the point that you knew load about China, then I pointed out to you that your China knowledge cannot possibly be more extensive than a local Chinese and you agree. So, what did you bring it up in the first place?

I never made any connection between your China knowledge and your ability to spot IP violation, I don't know what point you are trying to prove with your China knowledge.
But I didn't bring it up in the first place. I was patronisingly told that I knew nothing about China and that I should learn more about China before I could talk to Chinese people (Why? I don't demand them to learn about my culture before they talk to me!!). Given that I have visited China lots of times and travelled all over the country, that I work with Chinese every day, that I have a Chinese girlfriend (not my first), that I have read lots of books about China's history, culture, etc etc.... then that accusation of ignorance is unjustified to say the least! On some of these subjects I do indeed know more than most local Chinese (the majority of people everywhere in the world are uninterested in history and don't travel that much). However what I know about China (or not) is compeletely irrelevant to the subject at hand.... which is intellectual property theft. Frankly neither I nor anyone else commenting on this thread needs to know a damn thing about China or Chinese culture to recognise blatant intellectual property theft when they see it!!
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