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Old June 9th, 2006, 11:59 AM   #201
didu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
so you think a civil war is the only way, china could get a real democracy?
Geez, read the history of China and tell me when was the last time a change of regime did not require a civil war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
Edit: I dont think its good that you have to risk your life to get a change in the governemt.
What can I say? Reality is rarely pleasant.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 12:14 PM   #202
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What can I say? Reality is rarely pleasant
I would like to ask you a question :

If china would be a free, democratic country, and you would have the right to elect your leader( and the party behind him) what would you expect from him to do better than the current chinese governemtn does?

Just your personal oppinion........
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Old June 9th, 2006, 12:20 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Monkey
But I didn't bring it up in the first place. I was patronisingly told that I knew nothing about China and that I should learn more about China before I could talk to Chinese people
Well, compared with what the average Chinese know about China, it's arguable that you really know nothing about China.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
(Why? I don't demand them to learn about my culture before they talk to me!!).
Feel free to demand the Chinese to learn about your culture, as long as the topic of the debate is YOUR CULTRURE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
Given that I have visited China lots of times and travelled all over the country, that I work with Chinese every day, that I have a Chinese girlfriend (not my first), that I have read lots of books about China's history, culture, etc etc.... then that accusation of ignorance is unjustified to say the least!
All your travels and work experiences just means that you have a better understanding on China than your fellow foreigners, it doesn't mean much to a local Chinese. Of course, we'd be more than happy to acknowledge your China knowledge -- as long as you can demonstrate such knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
On some of these subjects I do indeed know more than most local Chinese (the majority of people everywhere in the world are uninterested in history and don't travel that much).
I don't know about other countries, but in China, history is a compulsory subject from year 6 to year 12. On top of history, classical literature is also a vital part of Chinese literature education which adds more the the history education. Chinese literature is a compulsory subject in both the natural science and social science branches of the National College Entrance Exams, and history is a compulsory subject in the social science branch. Both subjects are also compulsory in the high school graduation exams. So, most Chinese who graduated from highschool would know far more about their own history than some foreigner who's spent a few years of their lives working in China with a Chinese partner.

I don't know which one is more arrogant: a foreigner who's only travelled and lived in China for a few years telling some educated native Chinese that he/she knows more about Chinese history than they do, or the educated native Chinese who tell the foreigner that they know more about their own history than him/her.

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Originally Posted by Monkey
However what I know about China (or not) is compeletely irrelevant to the subject at hand.... which is intellectual property theft. Frankly neither I nor anyone else commenting on this thread needs to know a damn thing about China or Chinese culture to recognise blatant intellectual property theft when they see it!!
I cannot argue with that and I will not defend what's obviously wrong. However, you should keep in mind that IP violation happens in every single country. Every time I go to a cinema in Austalia, I see anti-piracy ads in movie previews. Half of the DVDs I bought contain the same anti-piracy ads -- why would you have these ads if piracy was not a problem? Half of the video game renting stores I've visted in Australia offer mod services for consoles -- what's the purpose of moding your PS2 or xbox? -- you mod it so that you can play pirated games! I know people who play pirate console games even though they are software developers themselves. I've been to the biggest electronics market in South Korea and talked to vendors who sell moded xbox consoles that come with a 20G HD that contains hudreds of xbox, PS2 and even the old nintendo titles (the non-xbox titles are played via emulation software).

I guess what I'm saying is that it's obvious that IP violation is wrong, and you are justified to criticize China for it, but don't always single China out as if it's the only country violating IP. Every country does it, some do more than others.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 12:38 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
I would like to ask you a question :

If china would be a free, democratic country, and you would have the right to elect your leader( and the party behind him) what would you expect from him to do better than the current chinese governemtn does?

Just your personal oppinion........
I've said in my previous post that the political ideology of a government in principle has nothing to do with its ability to govern. Your question is too open-ended for anyone to answer. What could an elected government do that the current dictators cannot? Not much really, as they will face the same problems the current dictators face -- large scale poverty, juggling economic development, preservation of environment and minimizing income gap, dealing with foreign hostilities both millitarily and economically, and a range of other issues. They might do better on the accountability and transparency front -- but there is no guarantee either, as it's been shown that other large democracies are said to be as corrupted as China.

My personal opinion is never to take anything for granted and political ideologies are no silver bullet.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 01:28 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
Well bully for you.... though frankly I couldn't care less....



Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
I do know loads about China. However, as you would know if you read my post properly, I don't have to know anything about China whatsoever to recognise blatant intellectual property theft when I see it! I mean what difference does it make how much I know (or don't know) about Chinese philiosophers? It's a total irrelevance!
Now, here you go again. Claiming to know LOADS about China and not being able to name a few Chinese philosophers. Sure, it is irrelevant to the subject, but than don't say you know loads about China.

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No I'm anything but ignorant.... wheras you've always been unpleasant, unintelligent, and uninteresting (nasty, stupid, and boring).
Ach, Äffchen!
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Old June 9th, 2006, 01:48 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YelloPerilo
Now, here you go again. Claiming to know LOADS about China and not being able to name a few Chinese philosophers. Sure, it is irrelevant to the subject, but than don't say you know loads about China.
Even if I didn't know a damn thing about Chinese philosophers, any fool could could look them up on Google or Wikipedia or whatever, and present a list of them and their works here. So what's the point? I am also not going to sit some absurd test of "Chinese knowledge" examined by a gimp like you!!

Last edited by Monkey; June 9th, 2006 at 01:54 PM.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 01:51 PM   #207
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Somehow it apperars to me this whole thread is only about having the last word.....
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Old June 9th, 2006, 01:54 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didu
Well, compared with what the average Chinese know about China, it's arguable that you really know nothing about China.
No I do not know nothing about China at all. I have travelled all over the place (probably seen more cities and provinces than most Chinese) and read a lot about the history and artistic legacy too (probably know more about that than most Chiense too).
Quote:
Originally Posted by didu
Feel free to demand the Chinese to learn about your culture, as long as the topic of the debate is YOUR CULTRURE.
But the debate isn't about Chinese culture either! It's not about anyone's culture! The debate is about intellectual property theft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by didu
All your travels and work experiences just means that you have a better understanding on China than your fellow foreigners, it doesn't mean much to a local Chinese. Of course, we'd be more than happy to acknowledge your China knowledge -- as long as you can demonstrate such knowledge.
No I am definitely not going to "demonstrate my knowledge". I have nothing to prove to anyone.

Last edited by Monkey; June 9th, 2006 at 03:20 PM.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 02:05 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
Well, compared with what the average Chinese know about China, it's arguable that you really know nothing about China.
Then why did you claim that you knew more about China's history than the average Chinese?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
No I am definitely not going to "demonstrate my knowledge". I have nothing to prove to anyone.
Sure, you have nothing ...
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Old June 9th, 2006, 02:05 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didu
I cannot argue with that and I will not defend what's obviously wrong. However, you should keep in mind that IP violation happens in every single country. Every time I go to a cinema in Austalia, I see anti-piracy ads in movie previews. Half of the DVDs I bought contain the same anti-piracy ads -- why would you have these ads if piracy was not a problem? Half of the video game renting stores I've visted in Australia offer mod services for consoles -- what's the purpose of moding your PS2 or xbox? -- you mod it so that you can play pirated games! I know people who play pirate console games even though they are software developers themselves. I've been to the biggest electronics market in South Korea and talked to vendors who sell moded xbox consoles that come with a 20G HD that contains hudreds of xbox, PS2 and even the old nintendo titles (the non-xbox titles are played via emulation software).

I guess what I'm saying is that it's obvious that IP violation is wrong, and you are justified to criticize China for it, but don't always single China out as if it's the only country violating IP. Every country does it, some do more than others.
Yes IP violations happen everywhere but they don't happen on the scale of China. Just read that Der Spiegel article again - it's appalling!! Where else is it happening on that scale? And I'm not singling out China in any offensive way.... however the thread topic does concern China after all. That's why we are discussing China's IP problems here and not those in the rest of the world.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 02:07 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
Somehow it apperars to me this whole thread is only about having the last word.....
no, it's about having fun at pissing other people off ...
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Old June 9th, 2006, 02:22 PM   #212
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I agree that IP violation is a serious issue threatening China's development. But the Chinese government did not sit there and do nothing. Actually, what I've noticed myself is that, e.g., it is now quite difficult to get pirate CDs and DVDs in the streets of Beijing and some other cities I've went to, whereas 5 years ago, I wouldn't have this problem. So it's improved. I have to say that, making a car that resembles other brands does not look like an IP violation to me though.

IP violation is wide spread not just in China, but in other developing countries too. E.g. India. If it is a common thing, why would anyone expect China could solve the problem overnight? And again, don't assume that it's only the foriegn firms that would suffer from IP violation, Chinese firms do too. It seems to me that some of the western media and people are suggesting that the Chinese government is giving a blind eye to IP violation which is certainly not true.

What hard measures can one take to tackle, e.g. selling pirate DVDs? You can't put them sellers into prison for it, maximum is some fine. But a lot of poor people would take the risk of being fined. Even if caught, they dare risk again. The government certainly can not put all its human resources into this kind of thing, it has a lot more other things to do.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 02:33 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
Yes IP violations happen everywhere but they don't happen on the scale of China. Just read that Der Spiegel article again - it's appalling!! Where else is it happening on that scale?
Sure, the shear scale of China's IP violation is bad, but the fact is that IP violation is common place in the daily lives of every single country and that is equally appaling.

Does it really make the western countries much better if only 30 percent of their citizens violate IP on a regular basis than say, the 95% of Chinese?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
And I'm not singling out China in any offensive way.... however the thread topic does concern China after all. That's why we are discussing China's IP problems here and not those in the rest of the world.
The thread concerns China, but it has very little to do with the IP violation situation in China. This thread is about the fact that the Geman government is refusing to provide financial and technical support for a rail project as per Chinese government's demands -- it has very little to do with the IP violation problem.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 02:41 PM   #214
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We're talking about joint venture screw overs and theft of high technology and some here come up with pirated DVD's ...
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Old June 9th, 2006, 02:49 PM   #215
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well, originally we are talking about the stupid germans, who dont want to give the chinese their maglev for free, although the chinese already stole the technology and it wouldnt make any difference.....

here`s a artcle from today :

http://english.people.com.cn/200606/...09_272578.html

China may abandon Shanghai-Hangzhou maglev line if talks with Germany fail



China may abandon the construction of the four-billion-euro Shanghai-Hangzhou high-speed meglev line if talks with Germany on technical transfers and other issues fail, the 21st Century Business Herald said Friday.

"The line will not be built if they keep saying no," Wu Xiangming, director of the China national magnetic levitation transportation technology research center was quoted as saying in Germany.

Wu is believed to be a key figure involved in bilateral talks on the building of the 200-km-long maglev track, which will be designed to allow a maximum speed of 450 km per hour.


...................................
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Old June 9th, 2006, 03:00 PM   #216
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well, originally we are talking about the stupid germans, who dont want to give the chinese their maglev for free, although the chinese already stole the technology and it wouldnt make any difference.....
You mean, the Germans are not trying to make a huge profit from the 4 billion SH-HZ Maglev line? Are you saying that China should just give billions of dollars of its hard earned cash to some German company without a blink for a railway that they don't have to build? Well excuse me but it's the right and obligation of the Chinese government to drive as hard a bargin as possible with the Germans to get the best deal possible for China, the Germans don't have to give anything away if they don't want to, and the Chinese don't have to use the German technology if they cannot get what they want.

What's the worst that can happen to China? Well, they don't have to build the railway -- as SH and HZ are already connected by freeway. Or they can just use alternative high speed rail technolgy -- which would mean that there will be a freaking 4 additional minutes of travelling time -- not such a big deal if you ask me if hundreds of millions of dollars can be saved.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 03:07 PM   #217
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if you wanna buy a maybach or a rolls royce, you have to pay for it...

if you wanna have a fully developed, reliable german maglev, that runs at 500 km/h in everyday service its gona cost something.....

Of courese you dont have to buy it, as much as Siemens and Thyssen krupp dont have to give it out of their hands for a bad price....

Thats capitalism
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Old June 9th, 2006, 03:15 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
if you wanna buy a maybach or a rolls royce, you have to pay for it...

if you wanna have a fully developed, reliable german maglev, that runs at 500 km/h in everyday service its gona cost something.....

Of courese you dont have to buy it, as much as Siemens and Thyssen krupp dont have to give it out of their hands for a bad price....

Thats capitalism
Guess what, if you want me to buy a maybach or a rolls royce, I will have to ask you to give me 15% discount on the car and life long warrantee and a host of other goodies. If you don't agree, then I will just walk away or buy something else.

The bottomline is, sellers need the buyers a lot more than the buys need the sellers -- especially for luxury items such as maybach or Maglev. Would it be good if the SH-HZ maglev could be built? Sure it would be. Does China actually need the SH-HZ maglev? Not really. Can China use something other than a maglev? Sure they can.

This is a buyer's market, that's captialism for you. So don't politicise it.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 03:22 PM   #219
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and thats why germany will build its maglev by itself ( munich-airport) or sell it to dubai or whoever is willing to pay the price....

The maglev is worth it, otherwise there wouldnt be that big global interest in that technology....



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Old June 9th, 2006, 03:23 PM   #220
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Quote:
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Then why did you claim that you knew more about China's history than the average Chinese?
I bet I do. And you are misquoting me. Please correct your post.
Quote:
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Sure, you have nothing ...
No I know plenty. However I have nothing to prove to anyone.
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