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Old June 9th, 2006, 03:27 PM   #221
Monkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didu
Guess what, if you want me to buy a maybach or a rolls royce, I will have to ask you to give me 15% discount on the car and life long warrantee and a host of other goodies. If you don't agree, then I will just walk away or buy something else.

The bottomline is, sellers need the buyers a lot more than the buys need the sellers -- especially for luxury items such as maybach or Maglev. Would it be good if the SH-HZ maglev could be built? Sure it would be. Does China actually need the SH-HZ maglev? Not really. Can China use something other than a maglev? Sure they can.

This is a buyer's market, that's captialism for you. So don't politicise it.
According to your argument it's a thieves market!

And no it's not a buyers market. It as much a sellers market. There are not loads of companies able to produce 500km/h Maglev (maybe only two in the world) and neither of them are going to allow the technology to be robbed from them without any assertion of their own interests. Germany is obviously not prepared to be screwed over just to sell a bit more in China. Otherwise how do you explain their saying "no"? That sounds like the seller asserting control and telling the buyer where to go! And there are other potential buyers for Transrapid. Munich and Dubai and perhaps Britain amongst them....
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Old June 9th, 2006, 03:29 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Monkey
I bet I do. And you are misquoting me. Please correct your post.No I know plenty. However I have nothing to prove to anyone.
Why don't you quote yourself? I see no point in debating with you. You feel you know heaps, but you are not willing to prove it to anyone, and honestly I don't care how much you know or what you think. I replied to you because I wanted to be polite and hoped that the debate would be fruitful -- I've wasted my time.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 03:30 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by pflo777
and thats why germany will build its maglev by itself ( munich-airport) or sell it to dubai or whoever is willing to pay the price....

The maglev is worth it, otherwise there wouldnt be that big global interest in that technology....



It's a beautiful train, and good luck building it yourself or selling it other people.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 03:33 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didu
Why don't you quote yourself? I see no point in debating with you. You feel you know heaps, but you are not willing to prove it to anyone, and honestly I don't care how much you know or what you think. I replied to you because I wanted to be polite and hoped that the debate would be fruitful -- I've wasted my time.
No what's wasting time and distracting from the subject is all these absurd demands to "prove" myself. Why the hell should I? I don't have to prove anything to anyone. However I will object when people who don't know a damn thing about me call me ignorant about China. I am anything but ignorant about China but I'm damned if I'm going to sit some pathetic little test examined by you or YelloPants! And I don't care a damn what you think either....
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Old June 9th, 2006, 03:37 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Monkey
According to your argument it's a thieves market!

And no it's not a buyers market. It as much a sellers market. There are not loads of companies able to produce 500km/h Maglev (maybe only two in the world) and neither of them are going to allow the technology to be robbed from them without any assertion of their own interests. Germany is obviously not prepared to be screwed over just to sell a bit more in China. Otherwise how do you explain their saying "no"? That sounds like the seller asserting control and telling the buyer where to go! And there are other potential buyers for Transrapid. Munich and Dubai and perhaps Britain amongst them....
Gee, it's such a seller's market that after all these years of research, marketing and publicity campaign, how many Maglevs have been built for commercial use? --One!! -- What a huge seller's market! Oh, in case you didn't notice, other than the Maglev option, China can also go with the high speed rail -- which will be much cheaper to build and only has 4 additional minutes to the entire journey. Did I mention that China didn't actually need a high speed railway between SH and HZ? It's not like there isn't already any freeway connecting these two cities.

Don't demonize China just because China wants to squeeze the max amount of goodies out of the German sellers. People all over the world do this everyday in buying cars, houses and anything expensive.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 03:44 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
No what's wasting time and distracting from the subject is all these absurd demands to "prove" myself. Why the hell should I? I don't have to prove anything to anyone. However I will object when people who don't know a damn thing about me call me ignorant about China. I am anything but ignorant about China but I'm damned if I'm going to sit some pathetic little test examined by you or YelloPants! And I don't care a damn what you think either....
You know what, do whatever you want and say whatever you want, I didn't ask you to prove yourself, and you don't have to prove yourself to me or any one, call yourself god or king of China or whatever the **** you want. This is a free forum and you are entitled to say whatever you want, just don't expect everyone to give a ****.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 03:51 PM   #227
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btw, on google earth, you can see the shanghai maglev now in high resolution

And for the experts: the german maglev line in emsland is also in high resolution for quite a while.....
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Old June 9th, 2006, 03:56 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by pflo777
btw, on google earth, you can see the shanghai maglev now in high resolution
There is a pictorial thread somewhere on this forum that has lots of shots of the SH maglev line. It's a beautiful system and it's very cool, but ...
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Old June 9th, 2006, 04:00 PM   #229
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Even if I didn't know a damn thing about Chinese philosophers, any fool could could look them up on Google or Wikipedia or whatever, and present a list of them and their works here. So what's the point? I am also not going to sit some absurd test of "Chinese knowledge" examined by a gimp like you!!
That's what I have expected, no less!
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Old June 9th, 2006, 04:23 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
well, originally we are talking about the stupid germans, who dont want to give the chinese their maglev for free, although the chinese already stole the technology and it wouldnt make any difference.....
Yeah because when thieves steal something from you, you should just give the rest of your stuff to them too right...
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Old June 9th, 2006, 04:27 PM   #231
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Yeah because when thieves steal something from you, you should just give the rest of your stuff to them too right...
This is very offensive. You do realize that the Chinese are prepared to spend 4 billion euros on something they don't even need and a large chunk of that 4 billion euros is going to end up in German company's pocket, right?
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Old June 9th, 2006, 04:30 PM   #232
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actually the chinese want that the german governemnt pays 10% of the construction cost, what is 400 mio € .German taxpayers mone, like they did with the first line to pudong, where german government payd 100 mio euro.

considering that the chinese also want that most of the equipment is produced in china and a huge technology transfer, I can understand, that the german side hesitates.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 04:39 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didu
Gee, it's such a seller's market that after all these years of research, marketing and publicity campaign, how many Maglevs have been built for commercial use? --One!! -- What a huge seller's market! Oh, in case you didn't notice, other than the Maglev option, China can also go with the high speed rail -- which will be much cheaper to build and only has 4 additional minutes to the entire journey. Did I mention that China didn't actually need a high speed railway between SH and HZ? It's not like there isn't already any freeway connecting these two cities.

Don't demonize China just because China wants to squeeze the max amount of goodies out of the German sellers. People all over the world do this everyday in buying cars, houses and anything expensive.
I'm not "demonising" China. However I am criticising China for its rampant IP theft - and in the case of this Maglev for having Chinese engineers break into the Maglev depots in the dead of night to steal technical data from their German "partners". I am criticising an outrageous and blatant case of IP theft - and rightly so! Don't defend the indefensible!!
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Old June 9th, 2006, 04:41 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
actually the chinese want that the german governemnt pays 10% of the construction cost, what is 400 mio € .German taxpayers mone, like they did with the first line to pudong, where german government payd 100 mio euro.

considering that the chinese also want that most of the equipment is produced in china and a huge technology transfer, I can understand, that the german side hesitates.
Also considering the flact that the Chinese have already proven themselves untrustworthy partners by having their engineers break into the Transrapid depot in the dead of night to steal technical data from their German "partners"! Once bitten, twice shy!!
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Old June 9th, 2006, 04:56 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
actually the chinese want that the german governemnt pays 10% of the construction cost, what is 400 mio € .German taxpayers mone, like they did with the first line to pudong, where german government payd 100 mio euro.

considering that the chinese also want that most of the equipment is produced in china and a huge technology transfer, I can understand, that the german side hesitates.
Well, 100% - 10% = 90% -- so China still has to pay a huge amount of money for something they don't need.

As I said before, this is purely business, and there is no need to politicize it. As a buyer, China wants to get the maximum goods from Germany for the minumum cost, and as a seller Germany wants to make the maximum amount of money out of China while giving away as little as possible. If a middle ground could be found, then both sides would be happy, if not, let's just say good-bye nicely and part our ways. There is no need to be bitter about it.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 05:03 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
I'm not "demonising" China. However I am criticising China for its rampant IP theft - and in the case of this Maglev for having Chinese engineers break into the Maglev depots in the dead of night to steal technical data from their German "partners". I am criticising an outrageous and blatant case of IP theft - and rightly so! Don't defend the indefensible!!
The way in which you "criticise" China can be seen as excessive. Any IP theft should be criticised, and I've never defended China on what's clearly wrong.

However, I fail to see any connection between China's IP violations and why the German government does not want to agree with China's demands for the new SH-HZ Maglev. I think the German's decisiosn is purely based on business profitability, and not on the fear that their technologies may get stolen by the Chinese.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 05:34 PM   #237
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^ Erm..... so you think the break-in by Chinese engineers to the Maglev depot in the dead of night to steal technical data from Transrapid has nothing to do with it?

And my criticism is anything but excessive. What really is excessive is for you guys to continue presenting blatant and outrageous IP theft as Chinese firms somehow "standing up for their legitimate interests" when in fact it's just.... theft!!
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Old June 9th, 2006, 05:40 PM   #238
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hmh....they dont have to break into that thing...they bought it, and can take it apart and analyse it as much as they want to.

copying that thing afterwards is sth. else.

Personally i think germany would have been in a worse situation, if they had made a chinese based joint venture concerning the core-maglev technology.
In that case, I am sure the chinese would have been able to built their own transrapid maglev quite soon.....
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Old June 9th, 2006, 05:48 PM   #239
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^ Erm..... so you think the break-in by Chinese engineers to the Maglev depot in the dead of night to steal technical data from Transrapid has nothing to do with it?
No I don't, as this is a fresh new deal.

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Originally Posted by Monkey
And my criticism is anything but excessive. What really is excessive is for you guys to continue presenting blatant and outrageous IP theft as Chinese firms somehow "standing up for their legitimate interests" when in fact it's just.... theft!!
It is excessive when your criticism has nothing to do with what's being debated. I've never said China's IP violation is justified. Your problem is that you keep using China's IP violation problem as the justification for bashing China for wanting to get the maximum goods for the minimum cost from Germany -- something totally legitimate that every consumer does every day all over the world.
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Old June 9th, 2006, 05:57 PM   #240
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Monkey, please allow me to remind you that you should notice whether IP violation is spred or not in China, has very little, if any, to do with the deadlock in the maglev talks.
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