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Old June 9th, 2006, 09:48 PM   #241
YelloPerilo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
hmh....they dont have to break into that thing...they bought it, and can take it apart and analyse it as much as they want to.
Exactly, that's why monkey's constant accusation has been nothing but a cheap attempt to demonise China.
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Old June 10th, 2006, 06:50 AM   #242
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Personally, I'd love to see American and European IP law move closer to Chinese IP law, than vice-versa. In many ways, China has fixed some of the more blatantly broken aspects of our laws.

For example, in the US, you aren't allowed to patent "an idea". It theoretically has to be a real item that actually works like you say it does in your patent application. HOWEVER, you never actually HAVE to demonstrate that it works to the patent examiner. Your word is considered proof enough. The problem is, if you never quite got it to work right, you could STILL turn around and sue someone years later (who DID solve your problems, and more) for infringement. They could parade every single former and present employee of yours in front of the court, have them testify that your item never worked, and your application was a complete fantasy, and STILL have the court rule in your favor due to the fact that it was granted in the first place.

Perfect example: go Google "Old Dominion University Maglev". It's about as close to a textbook-perfect example as you can get (and relevant to this topic). Basically, an American maglev company patented a system that ONLY worked under artificial lab conditions, and the engineering department at ODU has spent the past two years trying to make it work on their own after realizing that the original company was NEVER going to be able to make it work (basically, the original developer failed to take vibration of an elevated track vs a track resting on the ground into account, and the train "bumps & grinds" its way down the track as a result). And if ODU ever DOES get it to work, after spending millions of dollars worth of its own money to fix the mess they were left with, the original company could turn around and demand royalties (or at least sue anyone who builds new trains/track using ODU's own discoveries) because everything ODU will have accomplished is technically covered under the original patent (remember, it's presumed to represent a technology that actually works, real-world evidence to the contrary be damned).

Another positive aspect of Chinese IP law is the extreme prejudice it has against patent owners who aren't vigorously trying to publicize and license out their patent. In America, you can sit on a patent for 15 years, let others use it so it becomes ubiquitous and presumed to be public domain common knowledge, then turn around and sue everyone on the planet for infringement. In China, patent law works more like American trademark law... if you know someone is infringing on your patent, you have to at least notify them that they're infringing in order to preserve your future rights to sue. "Submarine Patents" (like most of the internet-related ones over the past few years) simply can't exist there. If you're sued for infringement and you can convince the court that the patent owner knew and sat in silence, you can have the patent either invalidated or be granted a compulsory license under fairly generous court-imposed terms. In America, IP owners can extort in ways that would make Mafia godfathers jealous... not only suing after years of silence, but suing for RETROACTIVE damages.

Another positive aspect of Chinese IP law: you can challenge a patent's validity without having to be sued for infringement. Let's suppose a company owns a patent on the use of pulse width modulation with an RGB LED to generate differently-colored light. Actually, there is such a company... and just about everyone in the industry thinks the patent examiner was on crack for granting it, because PWM has been used to dim LEDs for decades. It's been used to dim pairs of red and green LEDs to produce red, orange, yellow, and green. The only reason blue wasn't part of the equation is because blue LEDs didn't really exist until ~1999. But it was no great secret that the same technique could be used, and there was a shitload of prior art documenting how a hypothetical RGB LED could be used to generate the full spectrum of colors... if blue LEDs existed. Anyway, the patent office granted the patent, but later admitted that it didn't bother to look for prior art that wasn't itself patented (in other words, the idea that prior art might be public knowledge never even factored into their equation). So there's now a patent whose owner has been a MAJOR bully, threatening to sue everyone and anyone who uses RGB LEDs to generate mixed colors, whom even the USPTO concedes (off the record) that they "might" have screwed up in granting it.

The problem is, nobody can bring about a lawsuit to have it overturned unless the patent's owner actually sues them... and defending oneself in a patent infringement suit is INCREDIBLY expensive -- and risky, because if you lose, you could also be held liable for punitive damages for intentional infringement. If it were legal to challenge the suit WITHOUT needing to have standing (by virtue of being sued for infringement first), there are dozens of companies who'd band together in an instant to gang up on the patent owner and challenge its validity. But nobody wants to risk being the one to openly "infringe" to get the suit filed against THEM PERSONALLY and risk having their "friends" all disappear. So, a patent that's about as bogus and bull$hit as you can get still stands, RGB color-shifting christmas lights (just to name one thing) don't exist in America because everyone's afraid of getting sued, and nobody can do a thing about it. In China, the companies who oppose the patent could just gang up, hire a lawyer, and unilaterally challenge the patent's validity with nothing to lose but their lawyers' fees (in America, losing an infringement suit could result in a judgement that puts the company out of business).

FYI, if you're interested, check out http://www.svision.com/ledalliance... it details the saga that's STILL going on to get the patent overturned, and shows just how badly broken the American patent system is right now.

Last edited by miamicanes; June 10th, 2006 at 06:59 AM.
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Old June 10th, 2006, 08:50 AM   #243
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The Germans learned China at last.
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Old June 10th, 2006, 12:53 PM   #244
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China steals everything because they can't innovate........

Tell us something we don't know.
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Old June 10th, 2006, 06:00 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluga
China steals everything because they can't innovate........

Tell us something we don't know.
You are ignorant, that's why you don't know anything.
China has four great inventions ahead of anyone else in the world:
Paper making, gun powder, printing techniques and compass.
Problem for current China is, it is still a developing country, and hence does not have as much cash as the west to pour into research and development. But once we have enough capital ourselves, you will realies how silly your comments are.
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Old June 10th, 2006, 06:02 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miamicanes
Personally, I'd love to see American and European IP law move closer to Chinese IP law, than vice-versa. In many ways, China has fixed some of the more blatantly broken aspects of our laws.

For example, in the US, you aren't allowed to patent "an idea". It theoretically has to be a real item that actually works like you say it does in your patent application. HOWEVER, you never actually HAVE to demonstrate that it works to the patent examiner. Your word is considered proof enough. The problem is, if you never quite got it to work right, you could STILL turn around and sue someone years later (who DID solve your problems, and more) for infringement. They could parade every single former and present employee of yours in front of the court, have them testify that your item never worked, and your application was a complete fantasy, and STILL have the court rule in your favor due to the fact that it was granted in the first place.

Perfect example: go Google "Old Dominion University Maglev". It's about as close to a textbook-perfect example as you can get (and relevant to this topic). Basically, an American maglev company patented a system that ONLY worked under artificial lab conditions, and the engineering department at ODU has spent the past two years trying to make it work on their own after realizing that the original company was NEVER going to be able to make it work (basically, the original developer failed to take vibration of an elevated track vs a track resting on the ground into account, and the train "bumps & grinds" its way down the track as a result). And if ODU ever DOES get it to work, after spending millions of dollars worth of its own money to fix the mess they were left with, the original company could turn around and demand royalties (or at least sue anyone who builds new trains/track using ODU's own discoveries) because everything ODU will have accomplished is technically covered under the original patent (remember, it's presumed to represent a technology that actually works, real-world evidence to the contrary be damned).

Another positive aspect of Chinese IP law is the extreme prejudice it has against patent owners who aren't vigorously trying to publicize and license out their patent. In America, you can sit on a patent for 15 years, let others use it so it becomes ubiquitous and presumed to be public domain common knowledge, then turn around and sue everyone on the planet for infringement. In China, patent law works more like American trademark law... if you know someone is infringing on your patent, you have to at least notify them that they're infringing in order to preserve your future rights to sue. "Submarine Patents" (like most of the internet-related ones over the past few years) simply can't exist there. If you're sued for infringement and you can convince the court that the patent owner knew and sat in silence, you can have the patent either invalidated or be granted a compulsory license under fairly generous court-imposed terms. In America, IP owners can extort in ways that would make Mafia godfathers jealous... not only suing after years of silence, but suing for RETROACTIVE damages.

Another positive aspect of Chinese IP law: you can challenge a patent's validity without having to be sued for infringement. Let's suppose a company owns a patent on the use of pulse width modulation with an RGB LED to generate differently-colored light. Actually, there is such a company... and just about everyone in the industry thinks the patent examiner was on crack for granting it, because PWM has been used to dim LEDs for decades. It's been used to dim pairs of red and green LEDs to produce red, orange, yellow, and green. The only reason blue wasn't part of the equation is because blue LEDs didn't really exist until ~1999. But it was no great secret that the same technique could be used, and there was a shitload of prior art documenting how a hypothetical RGB LED could be used to generate the full spectrum of colors... if blue LEDs existed. Anyway, the patent office granted the patent, but later admitted that it didn't bother to look for prior art that wasn't itself patented (in other words, the idea that prior art might be public knowledge never even factored into their equation). So there's now a patent whose owner has been a MAJOR bully, threatening to sue everyone and anyone who uses RGB LEDs to generate mixed colors, whom even the USPTO concedes (off the record) that they "might" have screwed up in granting it.

The problem is, nobody can bring about a lawsuit to have it overturned unless the patent's owner actually sues them... and defending oneself in a patent infringement suit is INCREDIBLY expensive -- and risky, because if you lose, you could also be held liable for punitive damages for intentional infringement. If it were legal to challenge the suit WITHOUT needing to have standing (by virtue of being sued for infringement first), there are dozens of companies who'd band together in an instant to gang up on the patent owner and challenge its validity. But nobody wants to risk being the one to openly "infringe" to get the suit filed against THEM PERSONALLY and risk having their "friends" all disappear. So, a patent that's about as bogus and bull$hit as you can get still stands, RGB color-shifting christmas lights (just to name one thing) don't exist in America because everyone's afraid of getting sued, and nobody can do a thing about it. In China, the companies who oppose the patent could just gang up, hire a lawyer, and unilaterally challenge the patent's validity with nothing to lose but their lawyers' fees (in America, losing an infringement suit could result in a judgement that puts the company out of business).

FYI, if you're interested, check out http://www.svision.com/ledalliance... it details the saga that's STILL going on to get the patent overturned, and shows just how badly broken the American patent system is right now.
Thanks for your comprehensive post
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Old June 10th, 2006, 07:43 PM   #247
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Quote:
Paper making, gun powder, printing techniques and compass.
Nice... but hardly mind blowing inventions.
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Old June 11th, 2006, 12:08 AM   #248
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FYI

China's Action Plan on IPR Protection 2006

http://www.china.org.cn/english/features/IPR/167843.htm
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Old June 11th, 2006, 03:40 AM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Accura
Nice... but hardly mind blowing inventions.
Which all have been invented in Europe seperately...
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Old June 11th, 2006, 04:15 AM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHiRO
Which all have been invented in Europe seperately...
Hundreds and even thousands of years after the Chinese. And not to mention that some of the four great inventions were actually stolen by some Europeans through the silk road..
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Old June 11th, 2006, 04:22 AM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Accura
Nice... but hardly mind blowing inventions.
mind blowing, when you consider that some of the important chinese inventions help Europe.

Last edited by y3miii; June 11th, 2006 at 09:08 AM.
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Old June 11th, 2006, 09:07 AM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaoanyu
Hundreds and even thousands of years after the Chinese. And not to mention that some of the four great inventions were actually stolen by some Europeans through the silk road..
It's a pity China didn't decide to invade Europe, or colonize North America. :p I'd be speaking Chinese then.
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Old June 11th, 2006, 05:13 PM   #253
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Quote:
I'd be speaking Chinese then.
Don't worry... in a hundred years or so, everyone will be speaking English... but probably writing it in Chinese...
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Old June 11th, 2006, 05:19 PM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaoanyu
China has four great inventions ahead of anyone else in the world:
Paper making, gun powder, printing techniques and compass.
Not as good as the Ipod.
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Old June 12th, 2006, 02:47 AM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777
hmh....they dont have to break into that thing...they bought it, and can take it apart and analyse it as much as they want to.

copying that thing afterwards is sth. else.

Personally i think germany would have been in a worse situation, if they had made a chinese based joint venture concerning the core-maglev technology.
In that case, I am sure the chinese would have been able to built their own transrapid maglev quite soon.....
Exactly, let alone China's own technology first, China has bought Japan's high speed train for the distance between Beijing and Shanghai. You see, with money, China simply picked one among all competitors. It is Germany's choice to keep Mag-lev in its pocket, but it might no longer be China' interest after many years.
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Old June 12th, 2006, 02:51 AM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaoanyu
You are ignorant, that's why you don't know anything.
China has four great inventions ahead of anyone else in the world:
Paper making, gun powder, printing techniques and compass.
Problem for current China is, it is still a developing country, and hence does not have as much cash as the west to pour into research and development. But once we have enough capital ourselves, you will realies how silly your comments are.
Bluga is a notorious Taiwanese, brigged before. Ignore him.
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Old June 12th, 2006, 03:02 PM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
Good for Germany. Chinese engineers broke into the Maglev depot to steal secrets from Transrapid. That kind of attitude to intellectual property simply isn't good enough.
and u 've arrested the thief.!!!
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Old June 12th, 2006, 03:22 PM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
Calling Hong Kong "foreign" seems odd (and note that much Western investment in China arrives via Hong Kong). Taiwan is also dubiously foreign. It's natural that countries will invest most in their immediate neighbours. However Western companies have poured $billions into China in the last decade. If China's reputation for intellectual property theft continues to deteriorate then the world's largest overseas investors will plough their money into other emerging markets instead.
u ve already posted a couple of messages which r all lack of knowledges.
u do pls learn the eastern culture first,
do not be so very proud of being a pale western.!!!
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Old June 12th, 2006, 03:57 PM   #259
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I still believe that china will eventually mastered this technology, wheter with the help of Germany or not.

See the space technology ? ... they can catch up with US and Russia.
They are trying to land a man on the moon unless I am mistaken on 2020 ... let's see.

See how many chinese students in USA schools today ?
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Old June 12th, 2006, 04:03 PM   #260
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of course they wil...the whole question is when.

When I look back to the maglev development in germany it took 10 years, between the first working full scale model of a 450 km/h maglev and the status of being ready for commercial service....

And german engineers are known for not beiing the slowest and dumbest.

So I think that its possible that it will take quite a while until we will see the first 100% commercially usable maglev from china....
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