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Old June 8th, 2006, 12:06 AM   #121
LordChaos80
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@wigo:

Howlin' Mad Hegel said so much - incredibly stupid things as well as rather wise ones. How could I know them all? But I have another Hegel quote for u to think about:

"Die Pflicht, das Geschwätz zurückzuhalten, ist eine wesentliche Bedingung für jede Bildung."

@sen:

算了吧。

Last edited by LordChaos80; June 8th, 2006 at 12:17 AM.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 12:32 AM   #122
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....and as I said before Western manufacturers don't need to be based in China to sell products to the Chinese middle class. They can manufacture cars in a nearby SE Asian country with similar cost benefits and then sell them over the border.
You are right. Because by that time, China will already have its own industry so that some western manufaturers can no longer compete, and will have to leave to less developed countries. This is already happening in automobile, mobile phone and PC industries, to name just a few.

Based in other SEA countries and sell over the border of China may not be a good solution since China is vast, even after crossing the border one still have a long way to go to reach the country's north part. And also remember, China is not just about cheap labour, it's also has almost all the raw materials compares to a lot developed countries. So China is very likely to maintain itself even without a great amount of imports from other countries.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 12:38 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordChaos80
One of the less nice aspects (beside many, many nice ones) of Chinese people I have learned in my one year staying in China so far is that there are many among them who obviously lack the ability of discussing certain things objectively and logically. As soon as their country is concerned in the slightest way of criticism, their view gets way too biased and they can only retreat on childish arguments like this "western supremacy" stuff or refer to their own countries' greatness. Perhaps, one can hardly blame them for that, because they grow up with this patriotic rubbish starting in the kindergarten. Even my girlfriend and future wife ( also Chinese ) is like that. A reasonable discussion about the Taiwan matter with her is simply impossible, although she is an intelligent and educated person. The same here about that tech theft stuff: Why can, for example u, Yello Perilo or even my high appreciated fellow-forumer HKskyline, not admit that there are certain things happening in China which are just NOT OK in this way? With joining the WTO, China has also accepted to follow and execute its' laws and rules. And there is some point about them, which cannot only be in securing western interests, as Taiwan, Japan or Singapore are also keeping them in high regards. But I am starting to discuss again although I know it's a waste of time as long as the smell of national pride is in the air... So, I better take my leave again (what I would also recommend to Monkey and others...)

@Chinese fellows: 我不是怪你们个人的,也不是讨厌中国的那种老外。我说的就是中国社会之内的一个你们可能不能发现到的问题。。。 除了这个以外,我真的非常喜欢中国,很看得起它的文化和历史。 只是有时候你门对国家的爱情变你们成盲人 ( 我说的当然不是每个中国人,可很可惜挺多的. )
I was not born in China, I did not grow up in China I went to a French kindergarten and all my education was in "Western" countries. The difference between you and me: I grew up with two cultures, I know more about "Western" as well as Chinese culture than the average "Westener".
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Old June 8th, 2006, 12:45 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordChaos80
@wigo:

Howlin' Mad Hegel said so much - incredibly stupid things as well as rather wise ones. How could I know them all? But I have another Hegel quote for u to think about:

"Die Pflicht, das Geschwätz zurückzuhalten, ist eine wesentliche Bedingung für jede Bildung."
Zeit, daß der Westen damit anfängt.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 12:58 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wazabi
good decision, no good deal to play the trump card too early.
and you can't deny that chinese are copycats, just compare

opel frontera
with
jianling landwind

a certain similarity isn't there?
Dude how is that bottom pic a landwind? Its a Chevrolet!
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Old June 8th, 2006, 01:04 AM   #126
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Quote:
One of the less nice aspects (beside many, many nice ones) of Chinese people I have learned in my one year staying in China so far is that there are many among them who obviously lack the ability of discussing certain things objectively and logically.
As a Chinese, I perfectly agree with you about your this observation.
Quote:
As soon as their country is concerned in the slightest way of criticism, their view gets way too biased and they can only retreat on childish arguments like this "western supremacy" stuff or refer to their own countries' greatness. Perhaps, one can hardly blame them for that, because they grow up with this patriotic rubbish starting in the kindergarten.
Although I agree to your observations, I can not agree with your reasoning. I am afraid that you are onlying seeing the surface of this. Let me try to elaborate, and correctly me if I am wrong.
The CPP's way of educating its people, although may look a bit too patriotic and sometimes childish to you, is not a characteristic of communism itself. This way of education is the result of the invasions, robberies, murders and rapes committed by the western countries, Japan, England and France alike, during the 1840s up until the 1950s. This is the deep root as why it is always difficult for some Chinese to react logically facing criticisms, because they doubt about your intensions, in a word, the westerners are not to be trust. They learnt this from history, not from the CPP. Back in the 18 and 19 centuries, we used to be very friendly witht the west, and trust its people, but what we got in the end is a poor, splitted China, which in nowadays, we certainly don't want.
Quote:
Even my girlfriend and future wife ( also Chinese ) is like that. A reasonable discussion about the Taiwan matter with her is simply impossible, although she is an intelligent and educated person.
Again, the Chinese has learned this from history that we should never give up even one square inch of our land, we gave up so many of them to Russia (which is now Russia's territory) in the 19th centuries, not to say Hongkong, Macao etc. When the westerners talk about Taiwan, if they say Taiwan should be independent (which I don't care much about), the Chinese tend to think that you do not have good intentions, not that you are about the Taiwanese, but rather you want to split China and to make us weak so that you can come and attack again. And also, we Chinese always stick to one principle, as wigo's signature shows, only mind your own country's matters, and let others sort out theirs, so we of course don't want others to judge us, I am not saying that this is good, but this has been the Chinese way of thinking for thousand years. Said that, it may well be your future wife's problem, my future wife (Chinese 100%) may not act like that. just kidding
Quote:
The same here about that tech theft stuff: Why can, for example u, Yello Perilo or even my high appreciated fellow-forumer HKskyline, not admit that there are certain things happening in China which are just NOT OK in this way?
I admit that some no-OK things are happening in China.
Quote:
With joining the WTO, China has also accepted to follow and execute its' laws and rules. And there is some point about them, which cannot only be in securing western interests, as Taiwan, Japan or Singapore are also keeping them in high regards.
But then, I think you have to notice that China, with comparison of the four you have listed, are much more less developed. Its people, much more less educated, its laws, much more less specified. So you really shouldn't compare China to those. India is always a good comparison to China, see how India does things.
Quote:
But I am starting to discuss again although I know it's a waste of time as long as the smell of national pride is in the air... So, I better take my leave again (what I would also recommend to Monkey and others...)
I beg you not to leave. Because although the Chinese people and China itself may not seem very ok, I think you still lack of come understanding about the Chinese, its culture, and history. And since your wife-to-be is Chinese, I guess it is also your interests to know more about this country.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 01:07 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
^ I agree with every word of that. I have a Taiwanese girlfriend. One of her friends is from Beijing. She's a very nice girl and very intelligent. However her Taiwanese friends are careful to avoid mentioning politics around her as she immediately retreats into this rather unpleasant and aggressive nationalism. She cannot discuss it with any balance whatsoever. I think there is a collective chip-on-the-shoulder that can make them hyper-sensitive to criticism - very prickly! On the other hand I have another friend in Hangzhou, another bright girl, who can talk about things sensibly. However even she has a background education that might better be described as "brainwash". However she's smart enough to open her mind and listen to other points of view without instinctively lashing out insults and thinly veiled threats. Perhaps it's because her grandfather, who was Kuomintang, was tortured by the Communists?
First of all,this is just your personal experience that we even don't know it's an real experience or just a fake story.

Secondly,What I know is westerners are quite ignorant when things talking about involve China.I don't know if it's because they've gotten too many propagandas or what,but ignorance often makes people angry to talk with,because you know it's hard to talk with an ignorant person.Hope you know what happened when Chinese got angry or looked sensitive in front of you.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 01:14 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey

....and as I said before Western manufacturers don't need to be based in China to sell products to the Chinese middle class. They can manufacture cars in a nearby SE Asian country with similar cost benefits and then sell them over the border.
As I said before, Chinese consumers are quite different to "Western" consumers. In order to understand market demand, at least your R&D has to be there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
I have never heard of anything from either country as serious as the Chinese engineers breaking into the Transrapid depot at night to steal technical data!! Nor indeed any of the other examples listed in the Der Speigel article.

Surely not, neither India nor Vietnam could affford the Transrapid. And neither of them have enjoyed that much foreign investments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
It's not the truth. I bet almost all the investment coming from the Virgin Islands and Cayman Islands is western - not Chinese. I bet a huge portion that comes through Hong Kong is also western. And I have been to China several times and been all over the country. The precense of Western firms is evident everywhere. And before you accuse me of "Western supremacy" I think you need to check that rather large chip on your shoulder.....
Sure, the only names you could recognise were foreign brands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
And anyone who seriously argues that widespread and well publicised intellectual property theft from Western firms is not going to make them think twice about investing in China and starting joint ventures with Chinese partners needs their heading checking out. It's obvious that it will deter them! They are there to make a profit and if they end up getting consistently ripped off instead then of course they will be careful not to make the same mistake twice.
Sure, everbody wants to make a profit, the Chinese as well. Maybe you should see it this way. It is time to pay due interest for the Opium War, for the looting and burning of Yuanmingyuan and for the unfair treaties forced upon China.

Last edited by YelloPerilo; June 8th, 2006 at 01:25 AM.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 01:14 AM   #129
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@ Monkey,try to know more about China when you want to talk about China with Chinese.This is just like talking about football.It's always more interesting to talk with a football fan than a person who just knows little about it.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 01:28 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YelloPerilo
As I said before, Chinese consumers are quite different to "Western" consumers. In order to understand market demand, at least your R&D has to be there.
Other than that,better infrastractures,better skilled employees and perfect parts and service offerings from local companies,all make China more appropriate to be the right choice.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 01:32 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YelloPerilo
Zeit, daß der Westen damit anfängt.


Au Mann, was ist denn in Deutschland eigentlich bei Dir haengengeblieben?? Das deutsche Bildungssystem mueht sich bei allen Schwaechen, die es zugebenermassen hat, doch so sehr, bei den Schuelern Kritik und Hinterfragung der eigenen Umwelt anzuregen. Warum stellst Du China trotzdem genauso auf den Sockel der Unfehlbarkeit, wie es Deine Landsleute tun, die es aufgrund ihrer Erziehung eben nicht besser wissen? Es ist wirklich bedauerlich, dass sachliche Diskussionen ueber China mit vielen Chinesen kaum moeglich sind. Du musst doch zugeben, dass Deutsche ihr eigenes Land oftmals viel kritischer betrachten und bewerten. Meinst Du, das liegt daran, dass Deutschland ein so furchtbar beklagenswerter Ort auf dieser Welt ist, waehrend China einem Paradies der Glueckseeligkeit gleichkommt? Dann lebe weiter in Deiner Traumwelt und hoffe, dass Du nie geweckt wirst...真的没法说了。。。

@ Gaoanyu: U had some interesting points I'd like to refer to in a personal message I' ll send u later today, if u allow. But I prefer to quit this open discussion as I fear it will lead to nothing because of too much stereotype thinking on both sides...

@all: sorry for writing in German. I'll quit this thread now as I already stayed much longer than planned...

Last edited by LordChaos80; June 8th, 2006 at 02:31 AM.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 01:40 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
I bet almost all the investment coming from the Virgin Islands and Cayman Islands is western - not Chinese. I bet a huge portion that comes through Hong Kong is also western. And I have been to China several times and been all over the country. The precense of Western firms is evident everywhere. And before you accuse me of "Western supremacy" I think you need to check that rather large chip on your shoulder.....
I bet all the national foreign debts of the UK are governmental bonds.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 01:57 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordChaos80


Au Mann, was ist denn in Deutschland eigentlich bei Dir haengengeblieben?? Das deutsche Bildungssystem mueht sich bei allen Schwaechen, die es zugebenermassen hat, doch so sehr, bei den Schuelern Kritik und Hinterfragung der eigenen Umwelt anzuregen. Warum stellst Du China trotzdem genauso auf den Sockel der Unfehlbarkeit, wie es Deine Landsleute tun, die es aufgrund ihrer Erziehung eben nicht besser wissen? Es ist wirklich bedauerlich, dass sachliche Diskussionen ueber China mit vielen Chinesen kaum moeglich sind. Du musst doch zugeben, dass Deutsche ihr eigenes Land oftmals viel kritischer betrachten und bewerten. Meinst Du, das liegt daran, dass Deutschland ein so furchtbar beklagenswerter Ort auf dieser Welt ist, waehrend China einem Paradies der Glueckseeligkeit gleichkommt? Dann lebe weiter in Deiner Traumwelt und hoffe, dass Du nie geweckt wirst...真的没法说了。。。

@all: sorry for writing in German. I'll quit this thread now as I already stayed much longer than planned...
Mit dem Kopf gegen die Wand wird nichts änders.

Wo bitte schön habe ich China auf den Sockel der Unfehlbarkeit gestellt? Wo in dieser Diskussion, angefangen von "westlern", wurde überhaupt sachlich diskutiert? Wie kann man von Sachlichkeit reden, wenn die meisten "Westler" weder die Geschichte, die Kultur noch die Entwicklung Chinas, vollgepumpt mit westlicher Propaganda, die nicht selten einen rassistischen Hintergrund haben, kennen?

Deutschland und meinetwegen der "Westen" kann sich selbst bis zum Umkippen kritisieren. Selbstkritik üben wir unter uns aus (und das nicht zu knapp) und da hat ein Ausländer den Mund zu halten bis er gefragt wird. Chinesen kritisieren auch nicht ungefragt den "Westen". Ist doch ganz fair, nicht?
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Old June 8th, 2006, 03:04 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger
Secondly,What I know is westerners are quite ignorant when things talking about involve China.I don't know if it's because they've gotten too many propagandas or what,but ignorance often makes people angry to talk with,because you know it's hard to talk with an ignorant person.Hope you know what happened when Chinese got angry or looked sensitive in front of you.
Sorry, but look at this thread.

There is rampant intellectual property theft going on.

At the mere suggestion, a bunch of Chinese forumer jump up and down like toddlers yelling at how not true it was, and how people are just jealous of China and the usual tripe from people who criticize China.

Rather childish.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 03:51 AM   #135
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Nobody denied the IP protection was not very good in China.Not only foreign companies suffer from this situation,but also Chinese local companies.Believe or not,Chinese govt's trying to do better in this regard,but it has to need some time to see the gain.

Everytime when someone posted a positive thread about China,some forumers immediately started to bash China on democracy,pollution or IP protection...Whatever it's relevant to the thread or not.It's very annoying you know.Because it happened every time!It seems like they have intention to bash China,and that they are jealous of China's achievement.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 05:44 AM   #136
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It is annoying, but well deserved. I am proudly Shanghainese, yet am disgusted at Chinese arrogance. At its worst, it can be a society of scheming thieves - steal first, and escape via pretension. Politics may be one thing Westerners have no business speaking of (dependent on Chinese imperial tradition), but other factors are different. There is nothing wrong with Westerners attacking China for environmental issues or IP protection. This is one humankind, and at such a critical stage, Chinese selfishness is simply incredible.

One example:
"Why shouldn't we pollute if the West did in its past?"
Perhaps because nobody will survive if they do?

Tiger, please don't shame our country. A strong man is one that can admit errors; a strong patriot is one that acknowledges his country has problems, and acts to solve them, rather than childishly ignoring them.

Yes, the Chinese government needs time to adapt, but that is irrelevant to the issue at hand, of theft. Wrong is wrong, even "with Chinese characteristics."
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Old June 8th, 2006, 06:24 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jue
Tiger, please don't shame our country. A strong man is one that can admit errors; a strong patriot is one that acknowledges his country has problems, and acts to solve them, rather than childishly ignoring them.
I believe I criticized chinese govt in chinese forum more than you did.

Did I deny those problems?

Firstly,you even don't know what caused those problems.It's very ridiculous to criticize without acknowledging anything at first.

Secondly,I bet you don't know what chinese govt is currently doing for solving these problems,hence it's very normal you think I shielded chinese govt.

Thirdly,What is valuable is contructive opinions on the back of truth.

Don't put words in my mouth.If you really love your country,try to know more about her,and try to find the solutions,in stead of criticizing ignorantly.

I'm ashamed that there're some so called chinese in the world who doesn't know really well about China but attitudinizes to criticize her.

Last edited by tiger; June 8th, 2006 at 06:42 AM.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 09:16 AM   #138
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I believe I criticized chinese govt in chinese forum more than you did.

Did I deny those problems?
The reason you posted more in the Chinese forum is... gasp... I don't post there!
Quote:
Firstly,you even don't know what caused those problems.It's very ridiculous to criticize without acknowledging anything at first.
The general public disdains fair international cooperation. Does that quote regarding environmental history not strike a chord with you? So far you have not done better than other patriots that throw back generalities at every attack. Don't tell me I don't have a right to criticize. Injustice occurs in every country; America has a fixation on "unfair" trade deficits, for example, when it is not China's fault. If you really are unbiased, prove it. Arguing that foreign investors "choose" to invest against the risk of robbery does not make robbery right.
Quote:
Secondly,I bet you don't know what chinese govt is currently doing for solving these problems,hence it's very normal you think I shielded chinese govt.
I did not talk about the government in my last post, so do not put words in my mouth; in fact, it is doing quite a bit to improve the situation, given the circumstances. I never stated otherwise. What you shielded is not the government's (sometimes, as with any government - let's not talk about corrupt courts) honest efforts, but wily Chinese businessmen's frequent disrespect of the rest of mankind. This occurs everywhere, but never has it been at this terrible scale.
Quote:
Don't put words in my mouth.If you really love your country,try to know more about her,and try to find the solutions,in stead of criticizing ignorantly.
I keep up to date with Chinese economic developments and market data on a regular basis. Don't tell me to "know more about her," if by that you mean conform to a Chinese viewpoint. And don't call me ignorant. A colorblind man would call another man ignorant for thinking the sky is blue.

As for solutions, the only solution is time. As with any turbulent developing economy, only long-run stabilization can create a reliable legal system. The purpose of my post is to say what's wrong is wrong, regardless of one's allegiance. Your patriotism drove you to lambaste "Westerners" and write off theft as inconsequential. Many forumers have done the same in the past.

I realize it is human nature to be defensive, but all that rhetoric just ends up wasting time. Including mine.

Last edited by Jue; June 8th, 2006 at 09:21 AM.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 09:55 AM   #139
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I don't want to talk with an ignorant,it's a waste of time.bye.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 10:03 AM   #140
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I don't want to talk with an ignorant,it's a waste of time.bye.
You sort of EXACTLY proved Jue's point.

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