Bathurst?

[DanfromTO]

In the summer of 2008 the streetcar tracks on bathurst between bloor and st clair were replaced. During this time they changed the # 7 bus route. Instead of going north from bloor it went north from st.clair. now that the replacement is done it seems as if the ttc has simply forgotten about this bus route.

Currently bathurst transit works as such:
-South of Bloor is a streetcar as it traditionally has been
-There is a short bus route between Bathurst Stn(bloor St.) and St. Clair west stn
-Then you have to transfer to another bus at St.Clair west to go further north on bathurst.

So, if you want to go from bathurst and college to bathurst and eglinton, you have to get on a streetcar and two busses. And the buses go out of their way to pull off of bathurst and into stclair west stn....Ridiculous.

Is this just another case of the TTC being retarded or is there actually a reason for this?

If there is no reason, which I suspect because of the TTC's weak track record, then there should either just be 1 continuous bus north from bloor like before, or they should extend the bathurst streetcar north to stclair west because the tracks already go all the way up there.

[TRZ]

Originally Posted by DanfromTO

or they should extend the bathurst streetcar north to stclair west because the tracks already go all the way up there.

I support this.

There are not enough streetcars in the fleet to provide this currently though.

[Gil]

The work the TTC did on Bathurst was only the northbound track of Bathurst. The southbound tracks are being replaced now. The bridge rehabilitation at the CP tracks are still ongoing, hence the continued delay and subsequent detours. When all is said and done, work is supposed to wrap up by January 2010!

[Homer J. Simpson]

^I was reading today on Munro's blog that we will start seeing buses make up for streetcar shortages on the 501.

It is kind of sad that we don't have enough streetcars for the track we have.

[ggaleazz]

Originally Posted by TRZ

I support this.

There are not enough streetcars in the fleet to provide this currently though.

I thought there was a problem with the inclines on bathurst north of bloor

[Jaye101]

Originally Posted by Homer J. Simpson

^I was reading today on Munro's blog that we will start seeing buses make up for streetcar shortages on the 501.

It is kind of sad that we don't have enough streetcars for the track we have.

And that we didn't buy enough to replace the existing fleet.

In 1980 the TTC had 300 streetcars, right now they have 248 (180 in working order)--that's 52 less, with 2 new streetcar routes. In 2018, the TTC's order of streetcars is supposed to replace all of the current cars. However, they only ordered 204 new articulated streetcars. "This is not enough to replace the existing fleet plus additions to bring service quality back up, handle growing ridership and new lines" (Steve Munroe).

Not to mention that there are currently 3 new streetcar routes proposed. So basically what I am implying in is that the TTC plans to run it's streetcar network with 100 less streetcars than nearly 40 years (1980-2018) prior with 5 new streetcar routes; Spadina, Harbourfront, Cherry, Queens Quay East and Commissioners.

Although these vehicles are articulated, and there are currently less than 180 streetcars on the road during peak today, 204 streetcars is not enough.

[TRZ]

Originally Posted by ggaleazz

I thought there was a problem with the inclines on bathurst north of bloor

That's for ALRVs. CLRVs get by.

[urbanfan89]

I have a nagging suspicion that some TTC board members still hate streetcars and want to abandon them by the back door by "temporarily" running buses to "supplement" streetcar service during "peak hours".

[TRZ]

Originally Posted by urbanfan89

I have a nagging suspicion that some TTC board members still hate streetcars and want to abandon them by the back door by "temporarily" running buses to "supplement" streetcar service during "peak hours".

That's staff, not the board.

[taal]

Well there's not much you can prove right now as we do need the buses to run during rush hour on quite a few streetcar routes.

[ggaleazz]

Originally Posted by urbanfan89

I have a nagging suspicion that some TTC board members still hate streetcars and want to abandon them by the back door by "temporarily" running buses to "supplement" streetcar service during "peak hours".

I don't see how that would work. In fact I see it almost the complete opposite. The TTC would not even be considering a new subway line if it weren't for the Yonge line extension. They seem to be hooked on building more and more streetcar lines.

[TRZ]

Originally Posted by ggaleazz

I don't see how that would work. In fact I see it almost the complete opposite. The TTC would not even be considering a new subway line if it weren't for the Yonge line extension. They seem to be hooked on building more and more streetcar lines.

Again, this is the board... as in the Councillors on the Commission... some of the senior TTC staff have different opinions that are not as pro-streetcar. These are the same staff that support the Yonge Extension while trying to BLOCK the DRL.

[Homer J. Simpson]

Originally Posted by ggaleazz

I don't see how that would work. In fact I see it almost the complete opposite. The TTC would not even be considering a new subway line if it weren't for the Yonge line extension. They seem to be hooked on building more and more streetcar lines.

The lines planned for Transit City are not easily classifiable as streetcars as our existing network is per say.

[gta_rider]

Not exactly related to the Bathurst line, but this is on the subject of streetcars.

Actually it struck me about a week ago, why do we have so many east-west streetcar corridors?

We have Dundas St West, College Street, Queen St, King St... Pretty much all the major routes into and out of downtown are running streetcars.

I am for a balanced solution that is effective and provides relief for vehicle traffic. I do not believe that we should go all out for public transit and kill vehicle traffic.

Bottom line - with streetcar corridors, neither the cars nor the streetcars benefit.

Streetcars by themselves do not cause as much pollution per passenger as other means of transport WHEN they are running at high capacity. However, the congestion and traffic they cause no doubt makes up and (I would guess) exceeds the emissions of other solutions, such as buses. At this point we ought to be thinking of EFFICIENT solutions, so please don't throw the line that streetcars are heritage. Streetcars are mighty fine by me, IF they are well planned out and executed on efficient routes (such as dedicated streetcar lanes on Queens Quay/Spadina).

But this city seriously needs to remove some of the east-west streetcar tracks and ensure easier flow of traffic. If we had a Subway relief line, we could most certainly get rid of queen St streetcar route, and we should also think about replacing Dundas OR College with buses.

Streetcars are causing delays not only to vehicles, they are causing delays to themselves.

And for goodness sake's, King St line has two stops that are no more than 300 feet apart at Liberty village. Why the assinine planning? Can people not walk several hundred feet?

There are many efficient streetcar lines in Europe, but Toronto has poorly executed the vast majority of its lines.

[Homer J. Simpson]

^Okay just so that we follow your train of thought, it goes something like this:
1) Remove "excessive" streetcar infrastructure to make more room for cars
2) A subway line would eliminate the need for local transit
3) Dedicated ROWs benefit no one
4) Toronto's lines are poorly managed


Now tackle them one by one:
1) The streetcar service you discuss is there because the demand is there, not for shitz and giggles. I would wager that the streetcar ridership exceeds that of cars at certain times. In terms of energy effeciency only HRT beats LRT/Streetcars. Removing streetcar capacity would just encourage more cars to be on the road which would both increase the pollution and increase the time it takes on the route.
2) The prevailing opinion here is that the DRL should be built. The reality is though it will not eliminate the need for the streetcars downtown. It would reduce some of the peak loads which is of great benefit.
3) Dedicated ROWs are of great benefit to streetcar riders. They allow for an unimpeded ride and make it easier for the route to be managed. Also a single direction of streetcar track can handle several times what a single lane of traffic can.
4) Toronto's lines are poorly funded. We don't have enough streetcars to service the routes we have currently. We also do not have enough route supervisors (though this years service improvement will work on that)

I don't think you will find many people here who are of like mind.

[TRZ]

You cannot replace College with a bus, as a bus has far too little capacity to handle.

Also, it is not realistic to run articulated buses down narrow and winding downtown streets, as artics are difficult to maneuver without being locked into a fixed path (meaning that articulated streetcars would be fine).

Furthermore, buses would be even slower than the streetcars because of how buses always pull over to the side. The fact that streetcars do not pull over to the curb to load and unload passengers gives it a significant advantage in route performance. Yes, this slows auto traffic, but speeds up the streetcar over the bus.

Lastly, a bus cannot go around cars turning left when there's street parking that makes it effectively one lane per direction. This is common on all the major east-west streets, as these streets are very old.

The streetcars are way more efficient than the bus.

[TRZ]

Originally Posted by Homer J. Simpson

I would wager that the streetcar ridership exceeds that of cars at certain times.

Not just exceed... on King... it's double.

[TRZ]

Originally Posted by Homer J. Simpson

4) Toronto's lines are poorly funded. We don't have enough streetcars to service the routes we have currently. We also do not have enough route supervisors (though this years service improvement will work on that)

We actually don't have enough buses either.

[Homer J. Simpson]

^I didn't have any hard numbers handy but that surprises me in no way what so ever.

[gta_rider]

Originally Posted by Homer J. Simpson

^Okay just so that we follow your train of thought, it goes something like this:
1) Remove "excessive" streetcar infrastructure to make more room for cars
2) A subway line would eliminate the need for local transit
3) Dedicated ROWs benefit no one
4) Toronto's lines are poorly managed

That's not quite what I said. I am new to the site, so bear with me if I am not yet fully informed of everything discussed on this site.

1. Remove existing streetcar infrastructure AND REPLACE it with something that makes both vehicular and public transit traffic move faster. Related to #2 below.

2. A subway line along King or Queen eliminates the need for streetcar on that street.

3. I'm not sure what ROW is or where I alluded to it. Are you talking about Right Of Way? If that's what you mean, the only right-of-way that streetcars get is traffic signal (such as at Strachan and Fleet St), and streetcars definitely benefit if they're running on dedicated lanes. As a matter of fact, College is wide enough west past Bathurst to have dedicated streetcar lanes, but beyond that, it's a nightmare.

4. Toronto has poorly planned out its transit solution, and existing band-aid solutions do not work. So yes, Toronto's lines are poorly managed.

Now tackle them one by one:
1) The streetcar service you discuss is there because the demand is there, not for shitz and giggles. I would wager that the streetcar ridership exceeds that of cars at certain times. In terms of energy effeciency only HRT beats LRT/Streetcars. Removing streetcar capacity would just encourage more cars to be on the road which would both increase the pollution and increase the time it takes on the route.


2) The prevailing opinion here is that the DRL should be built. The reality is though it will not eliminate the need for the streetcars downtown. It would reduce some of the peak loads which is of great benefit.

3) Dedicated ROWs are of great benefit to streetcar riders. They allow for an unimpeded ride and make it easier for the route to be managed. Also a single direction of streetcar track can handle several times what a single lane of traffic can.

4) Toronto's lines are poorly funded. We don't have enough streetcars to service the routes we have currently. We also do not have enough route supervisors (though this years service improvement will work on that)

I don't think you will find many people here who are of like mind.

The city had some great ideas when it comes to subway lines and highways in the 1960s, but caved in to political pressure and pressure from residents. Replacing subway lines with streetcars just does not work well. The issue that I have is that the streetcar is hailed as the saviour of all our public transit woes, or so it seems. I think we most certainly have to expand our subway system. We have one of the lamest subways in the world, with only 2.1 running lines. The problem is starting something and abandoning half-way. Toronto's record speaks for itself. We are (or are trying to become) a world-class city. We need a world-class transit system. All the major metropolitans of the world have and use an EXTENSIVE subway network. New York City has a vast subway and bus network, and traffic there is moving faster and better than Toronto, in addition to moving much, much more people via its public transit. There are other cities, Paris, London, Barcelona, Moscow... Take a look at their subway maps, and we need to realize that our subway system is a sad project that needs to be completed.

Bottom line, I really am frustrated. TTC is often striking, complains about funding, and its fares are significantly more than other comparable cities. I pay $2.75 for a service that is sub-standard and costs 25% less in other cities.

There is incredible disunity and disagreement among the city council and we politically stalemate far too often to have any real solutions brought to a finish. We need leaders with muscle at all the right places to fix Toronto.

I lived in Toronto west and worked in Markham. I wish there was an affordable way to take public transit that a) would not take 2 hours and b) would cost less than driving a car. Only now we are talking about extending the subway line to highway 7. VIVA buses along hwy 7 would do the rest for me. But I can't see paying $20 per day in fares.