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Old November 15th, 2013, 09:51 PM   #901
Blackraven
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Berlin Airport...........brought to you by:

BAYER



and

Mercedes Benz





Hehe

Anyways, that is an impressive-looking airport. Definitely something to look forward to.

Anyways, I have two questions:

1) Amidst all the delays and setbacks, is it possible for this airport to open before year 2020?

2) Is it possible for Berlin Airport to surpass and succeed Frankfurt Airport? (after all, the capital of Germany is in Berlin, NOT FRANKFURT)
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Old November 15th, 2013, 10:03 PM   #902
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1. Theoretically already. How long they still need, no notion.

2. This is not planned. Even if Berlin is the capital, the flight centre is Frankfurt.
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Old November 16th, 2013, 05:31 AM   #903
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[QUOTE=Blackraven;108869111]Berlin Airport...........brought to you by:

BAYER



and

Mercedes Benz





QUOTE]

Is Bayer helping the airport execs. with all the headaches that this airport is probably causing them? I would need something stronger than Bayer if I was in their position.
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Old December 9th, 2013, 11:40 AM   #904
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I wonder how 'dated' everything will look by the time BER opens in late 2015 or sometime in 2016.
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Old December 9th, 2013, 12:29 PM   #905
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Lets see how makes it first: Doha or Berlin?
I dont believe in the May 2014 opening date for Doha.
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Old December 12th, 2013, 04:05 AM   #906
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Even Munich extension will be opened before it
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Old December 12th, 2013, 04:29 PM   #907
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shenkey View Post
Even Munich extension will be opened before it
10$ that not...
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Old December 12th, 2013, 10:12 PM   #908
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Will the new Berlin airport replace Frankfurt as a HUB in Germany for Lufthansa? At least on flights to Asia, middle east Russia and eastern europe Berlin is strategically placed and can work well as HUB.

Im sure americans also will find Berlin with all its history as a more interesting destination than Frankfurt. So Berlin is well suited for Intercontinental routes.
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Old December 12th, 2013, 10:30 PM   #909
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No, FRA will remain the main Hub in Germany. The Berlin Airport is also way too small to take over that position. Also the airport of MUC is much larger than the new airport in Berlin.
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Old December 15th, 2013, 01:10 AM   #910
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR66 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackraven View Post
Berlin Airport...........brought to you by:

BAYER
Is Bayer helping the airport execs. with all the headaches that this airport is probably causing them? I would need something stronger than Bayer if I was in their position.
Haha, what happens when a chemical company thinks it can run an airport.
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Old December 15th, 2013, 04:26 AM   #911
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Quote:
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Will the new Berlin airport replace Frankfurt as a HUB in Germany for Lufthansa? At least on flights to Asia, middle east Russia and eastern europe Berlin is strategically placed and can work well as HUB.

Im sure americans also will find Berlin with all its history as a more interesting destination than Frankfurt. So Berlin is well suited for Intercontinental routes.
BER will likely be near capacity when it opens, which limits its usefulness as a hub. The argument that Frankfurt has a large, travelling hinterland which Berlin doesn't is true enough.

BER is however ideally situated for traffic from Asia, as Helsinki is for travel between Northern Asia and Northern Europe. A hub in Berlin would shave off significant minutes and fuel cost on many or most Eurasian routes, some that might continue on rail.

For the same reason BER is badly situated for traffic from America. Here London, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Paris are better.
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Old December 15th, 2013, 02:54 PM   #912
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True, Berlin is Germany´s biggest city, the hinterland however is quite sparsely populated. Moreover Berlin lacks economical power. Hence the main reason for air traffic is tourism. Not enough to leave FRA or MUC behind.
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Old December 16th, 2013, 09:56 PM   #913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max BGF View Post
True, Berlin is Germany´s biggest city, the hinterland however is quite sparsely populated. Moreover Berlin lacks economical power. Hence the main reason for air traffic is tourism. Not enough to leave FRA or MUC behind.
Berlins agglomeration has about 4,5 Mill. inhabitants, Munichs has about 2,5 Mill.. Next cities to Munich without airport are Ingolstadt, Augsburg, Regensburg. Berlin has Magdeburg, Cottbus, Potsdam. Though the economic power is not that high, number of inhabitants is respectively bigger. Not to forget Poland with western parts very near to Berlin. At a moment Berlin is leading in percentual economical growth, of cause from a low position.

It will be the third biggest airport but it could come near to Munich. Remember Munich opened 1992 with 12 Mill. PAX. I still hear them complaining that it´s too big.

Kind regards
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Old December 17th, 2013, 03:02 AM   #914
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Right. The (still weak) 4,5 Milo agglomeration is exactly the reason why BER won´t overtake MUC for years - having in mind that MUC in addition serves as a hub.
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Old December 17th, 2013, 06:25 AM   #915
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I still don't understand how it can be possible to f*** things so bad?
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Old December 18th, 2013, 06:31 AM   #916
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The hinterland doesn't make a hub, geographical location (and willingness to spend huge amount of money does). Berlin is well situated for a hub between Northern Europe and Northern and Eastern Asia, and some other Trans-Eurasian routes.

The distance between the cities of Berlin and Frankfurt am Main is 423 km (I used the cities rather than the airports, as it was easier to get the data), not a huge distance relatively, but significant, and if we draw the quadrangles we can see the differences.

I picked four European cities. Hamburg represent Northern Europe, while Amsterdam and Paris represent the northern and southern end of the area with highest economic output in Europe, and Milan represent Southern Europe. The European distances are:
Berlin/Frankfurt–Hamburg 254 km/393 km
Berlin/Frankfurt–Amsterdam 577 km/365 km
Berlin/Frankfurt–Paris 879 km/481 km
Berlin/Frankfurt–Milan 842 km/518 km

I also picked four Eastern cities, Moscow represents Russia, Beijing Northern China, the Koreas, and Japan. Hong Kong South China (and the Philippines), Bangkok Indochina and Indonesia. The Eurasian distances are:

Beijing–Berlin/Frankfurt 7377 km/7800 km
Moscow–Berlin/Frankfurt 1616 km/2027 km
Hong Kong–Berlin/Frankfurt 8767 km/9175 km.
Bangkok–Berlin/Frankfurt 8615 km/8978 km


Given this there are 32 hub and spokes combinations, here are a few of them:
Beijing–Berlin/Frankfurt–Hamburg
7631 km/8193 km Saving: 562 km

Beijing–Berlin/Frankfurt–Paris
8256 km/8281 km Saving: 25 km

Moscow–Berlin/Frankfurt–Amsterdam
2193 km/ 2392 km Saving: 199 km

Moscow–Berlin/Frankfurt–Milan
2458 km/2545 km Saving: 87 km

Hong Kong–Berlin/Frankfurt–Hamburg
9344 km/9540 km Saving: 196 km

Bangkok–Berlin/Frankfurt–Paris
9494 km/9459 km Saving: -35 km

Direct flights are always shorter, quicker, more convenient, and (for same air planes) more environmentally friendly. But for connecting flights Berlin may be considerably better placed than Frankfurt (or Munich), and the airspace is considerably less congested. I wonder if Prague wouldn't be even a little bit better than Berlin purely considered as a hub, but Berlin has better infrastructure.

But not good enough. The airport is not designed to be a hub, and the air/rail integration isn't that great either. It's a could-have-been.
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Old December 19th, 2013, 12:11 AM   #917
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Can't wait for the airport to open so I can see some EK A380's there.
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Old December 19th, 2013, 05:14 PM   #918
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Quote:
Originally Posted by :jax: View Post
The hinterland doesn't make a hub, geographical location (and willingness to spend huge amount of money does). Berlin is well situated for a hub between Northern Europe and Northern and Eastern Asia, and some other Trans-Eurasian routes.

The distance between the cities of Berlin and Frankfurt am Main is 423 km (I used the cities rather than the airports, as it was easier to get the data), not a huge distance relatively, but significant, and if we draw the quadrangles we can see the differences.

I picked four European cities. Hamburg represent Northern Europe, while Amsterdam and Paris represent the northern and southern end of the area with highest economic output in Europe, and Milan represent Southern Europe. The European distances are:
Berlin/Frankfurt–Hamburg 254 km/393 km
Berlin/Frankfurt–Amsterdam 577 km/365 km
Berlin/Frankfurt–Paris 879 km/481 km
Berlin/Frankfurt–Milan 842 km/518 km

I also picked four Eastern cities, Moscow represents Russia, Beijing Northern China, the Koreas, and Japan. Hong Kong South China (and the Philippines), Bangkok Indochina and Indonesia. The Eurasian distances are:

Beijing–Berlin/Frankfurt 7377 km/7800 km
Moscow–Berlin/Frankfurt 1616 km/2027 km
Hong Kong–Berlin/Frankfurt 8767 km/9175 km.
Bangkok–Berlin/Frankfurt 8615 km/8978 km


Given this there are 32 hub and spokes combinations, here are a few of them:
Beijing–Berlin/Frankfurt–Hamburg
7631 km/8193 km Saving: 562 km

Beijing–Berlin/Frankfurt–Paris
8256 km/8281 km Saving: 25 km

Moscow–Berlin/Frankfurt–Amsterdam
2193 km/ 2392 km Saving: 199 km

Moscow–Berlin/Frankfurt–Milan
2458 km/2545 km Saving: 87 km

Hong Kong–Berlin/Frankfurt–Hamburg
9344 km/9540 km Saving: 196 km

Bangkok–Berlin/Frankfurt–Paris
9494 km/9459 km Saving: -35 km

Direct flights are always shorter, quicker, more convenient, and (for same air planes) more environmentally friendly. But for connecting flights Berlin may be considerably better placed than Frankfurt (or Munich), and the airspace is considerably less congested. I wonder if Prague wouldn't be even a little bit better than Berlin purely considered as a hub, but Berlin has better infrastructure.

But not good enough. The airport is not designed to be a hub, and the air/rail integration isn't that great either. It's a could-have-been.
Prague is centrally placed in europe. But the airport is small 11k pax pr. year isnt enough to be a hub, maybe a national hub. But Germany is a large market (80 million people) and Berlin is a city rich on both culture and history and strong trademark throughout the world. So im sure a lot of international and german airlines will establish large bases at the new Berlin airport.

The new munich ariport 1992:12 million today 2013 (40 million)

So I think we will see a fast growing airport in Berlin as their has been undercapacity there for a very long time. 27 million capacity million is way to small for the new airport. Because of the delay they will have to expand when they open (2014 sometime?)
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Old December 21st, 2013, 04:23 PM   #919
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But not good enough. The airport is not designed to be a hub, and the air/rail integration isn't that great either. It's a could-have-been.
Besides Frankfurt, Cologne and Düsseldorf there is no airport with adequate ICE-stop. The future rail-stop at BER is foreseen for ICE. Unfortunately it can´t be the line Hamburg-Dresden-Prague (the deviation would be too big) but there are ideas to serve it as the terminus of the ICE from Hannover via Brunswick.

Munich is a successful hub without any ICE-integration and sadly this is only a future dream. Maybe there is a possibility to have a EC line from Wroclaw via Cottbus to BER and Berlin. So I would not call that a have-been. I´m more worried about the fact, that the integration of a future Terminal 2 is not well integrated with rail.stop as it´s done in Munich. And there is no ready tunnel for this as it was done in MUC.

Kind regards
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Old December 24th, 2013, 02:14 PM   #920
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BER ist too isolated and badly situated in the Northeast. Nobody targeting South Europe (main destination), America or Africa wants to start the trip with travelling the opposite way to Berlin, just to have a longer flight and additional transfer as reward. Same argument just lessened counts for Middle and Far East.

The best cause for BER to grow still is (politically) prevented expansion at FRA or MUC.
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