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Old December 24th, 2013, 02:43 PM   #921
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noir-dresses View Post
Can't wait for the airport to open so I can see some EK A380's there.

EK doesnt fly to berlin and is not planning to switch it's operations from düsseldorf or hamburg to berlin afaik.
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Old December 24th, 2013, 02:59 PM   #922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max BGF View Post
BER ist too isolated and badly situated in the Northeast. Nobody targeting South Europe (main destination), America or Africa wants to start the trip with travelling the opposite way to Berlin, just to have a longer flight and additional transfer as reward. Same argument just lessened counts for Middle and Far East.

The best cause for BER to grow still is (politically) prevented expansion at FRA or MUC.
That I would disagree with. Not Africa or the Americas obviously, but Berlin would be among the best situated hub airports for traffic between Europe and East Asia. The hub and spoke model is much less in fashion than it were 10-15 years ago, and planes like Boeing 787 can easily handle any route between these regions, the infrastructure is undeveloped, and not the least the airport isn't even opened yet.

However when it does open, and particularly after it is expanded I would expect a significant and increasing part of the traffic coming from East Asia, and some of that traffic will not have Berlin as the final destination.
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Old December 24th, 2013, 03:29 PM   #923
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That I would disagree with. Not Africa or the Americas obviously, but Berlin would be among the best situated hub airports for traffic between Europe and East Asia. The hub and spoke model is much less in fashion than it were 10-15 years ago, and planes like Boeing 787 can easily handle any route between these regions, the infrastructure is undeveloped, and not the least the airport isn't even opened yet.

However when it does open, and particularly after it is expanded I would expect a significant and increasing part of the traffic coming from East Asia, and some of that traffic will not have Berlin as the final destination.
problem is, lufthansa's not gonna do a berlin-asia hub. makes absolutely no sense to thin out frankfurt and munich connections and shift asia flights to berlin. would be a mess with connecting-passengers from north america to asia for example.

air berlin can't do, because they agreed to codeshare their asia flights with etihad. de facto, they will not have any direct flight to asia, but they will send all their asia passengers to abu dhabi, from where they will continue with an etihad flight.

so basically there's no one left to build an asia hub.

Last edited by il fenomeno; December 24th, 2013 at 03:38 PM.
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Old December 24th, 2013, 06:07 PM   #924
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It is well-established that BER is not in capacity, that is will not have the capacity, to be an airline hub. What I implied was that a lot of the traffic BER is going to have in the future will be from Asian, not European, airlines. Of whatever capacity the airport will have, the East, especially the Far East, will grow as important as the West (of Europe).
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Old December 24th, 2013, 10:59 PM   #925
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so now you are talking about o&d traffic from asia? thats even less likely, berlin is a low yield sector and will be for many decades.
or are we still talking about connecting passengers? but who's gonna do the connecting flights?

Last edited by il fenomeno; December 24th, 2013 at 11:05 PM.
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Old December 25th, 2013, 01:10 PM   #926
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I think Berlin would suit much better as a hub between North America/Western Europe into Eastern Europe/Central Asia. It makes not much of a difference if long haul Eastbound flights depart from Frankfurt or from Berlin, but the city is well positioned, close to "emerging market" European Union.

If the airport is prepared to handle those passengers and gets good transatlantic connections, I believe that could be a successful approach for its future role.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 05:53 AM   #927
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Meanwhile, air berlin moves its hub from Berlin to Frankfurt. Yes bright future for BER.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1686391
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Old December 26th, 2013, 07:02 AM   #928
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What is the latest concerning the opening date of BER?
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Old December 26th, 2013, 07:27 AM   #929
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Meanwhile, air berlin moves its hub from Berlin to Frankfurt. Yes bright future for BER.
When they open it they will come. Meanwhile there's no point at being at a party with no guests, or hosts.
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Old December 28th, 2013, 08:03 AM   #930
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2) Is it possible for Berlin Airport to surpass and succeed Frankfurt Airport? (after all, the capital of Germany is in Berlin, NOT FRANKFURT)
Why does the main airport have to be where the capital is? Atlanta is one of the busiest airports in the world, and it's nowhere near the most important city in the US. Washington, DC is the capital of the US and it has TWO airports, and both are relatively minor compared to other large airports in the US. Berlin is a nice airport, nothing more. Airlines don't just change their flight patterns because a new airport opens.
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Old December 28th, 2013, 02:48 PM   #931
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To some extent, Berlin certainly has the potential to surpass Frankfurt. After all, it's a greenfield site and expansion, if required, will likely be easier to execute than Frankfurt which after T3, has pretty much nowhere to go. However, being the capital is not a reason why it should replace Frankfurt as a hub. Frankfurt has the benefit of being a financial hub, which is pretty much the backbone of commercial aviation today. To become a major airline hub, Berlin will need more than just a new airport - it needs to have the political and economic will to make it happen. Just look at Dubai, Doha and Abu Dhabi. Prior to the 2000s, there was literally nothing. Now, look at where they are now.
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Old December 28th, 2013, 03:44 PM   #932
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Berlin is designed for 27 million passengers or so. With a second terminal they could up that possibly to 54 million passengers.

After T3 is completed FRA can handle up to 100 million passengers. And FRA has the much better connections tot he rest of Europe, and is serving a much more populated area then Berlin does. So I do not see the potential with which Berlin could potentially surpass Frankfurt as the major hub in Germany.
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Old December 29th, 2013, 11:20 PM   #933
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Quote:
Originally Posted by il fenomeno View Post
problem is, lufthansa's not gonna do a berlin-asia hub. makes absolutely no sense to thin out frankfurt and munich connections and shift asia flights to berlin.
No one took this into consideration. When Munich opened in 1992 it was said, that there is no need for a second hub in Germany. Since then air-travel grew with an unexpected rate and there are two benefitial hubs. Economics and population do not make a hub alone. If so, Madrid is also a big city in the middle of nowhere, far away from dense populated areas and no economic heartland like London or Frankfurt. But it serves as the main european south-america hub very well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by il fenomeno View Post
so basically there's no one left to build an asia hub.
This will be a general problem for all european hubs in the future. Why flying via Frankfurt to Asia?. You can have flights from all parts of Europe to Dubai e. g.. From there you have a huge amount of destinations in Asia. Maybe there is no need to have an asia-hub in Europe anymore but in the middle-east.

BER will be an major european airport like Barcelona or Milano. Not a major european hub but among the biggest in Europe for sure.

Kind regards
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Old December 31st, 2013, 05:17 PM   #934
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Once again. Not only economics and population but also location.

Map of Germany. Berlin btw is the Noth Eastern island:


Even more interesting than the centres/points is the plain country, being black in the North-East and quite blue in South-West.
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Old January 2nd, 2014, 12:46 AM   #935
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Once again. Not only economics and population but also location.
The ultimate location creating a europe/asia hub-and-spoke system would be in the middle east. Dubai btw is also a big light in a dark desert at night .
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Old January 4th, 2014, 05:17 AM   #936
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Dubai is well-located for travel to Australia and to South Asia. It is an extreme detour to go to Beijing, Seoul, or Tokyo from Europe by the way of Dubai.
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Old January 6th, 2014, 10:17 PM   #937
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Madrid is also a big city in the middle of nowhere, far away from dense populated areas and no economic heartland like London or Frankfurt. But it serves as the main european south-america hub very well.
One could come to the lunatic conclusion that that's due to the fact that most people travelling from South America to Europe are naturally heading to Spain or Portugal. Or that it's due to a traditional strength of Iberia on connections to Latin America. Berlin has neither of those, obviously: Neither a Berlin-based major carrier in Asian markets nor a particularily strong Asian population in the region that would create a market big enough for lots of connections to Asia.
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Old January 8th, 2014, 08:30 AM   #938
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One could come to the lunatic conclusion that that's due to the fact that most people travelling from South America to Europe are naturally heading to Spain or Portugal.
Same for London with USA/North-America. But another lunatic conclusion is that there is some water in between. That´s what I already said. A Euro/Asia-hub could be everywhere in between Europe/Asia as there is no real asian minority in Europe (besides maybe London).
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Old January 8th, 2014, 07:24 PM   #939
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Berlin Mayor Says New Airport Won't Open This Year

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BERLIN—The opening of Berlin's long-delayed new airport won't happen in 2014, according to the mayor, the latest setback for Germany's most prestigious public project which is now running at least 2½ years behind schedule.

Berlin Mayor Klaus Wowereit, who is also chairman of Brandenburg Airport's supervisory board, said Tuesday that "it won't be possible to open the airport in 2014," in remarks reported by local media and later confirmed by his spokesman Bernhard Schodrowski.
More here and here
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Old January 8th, 2014, 11:38 PM   #940
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wow. its sounding more like the 787 program. running late and behind schedule.
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