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Old January 21st, 2017, 05:43 PM   #1161
Lord David
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Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Some airlines have already been told they may continue in Tegel until at least 2023 and probably until 2030.

Restricted to 7am -10pm operations after 2019 which suits airlines with no based aircraft just fine.
I got to use Tegel Airport on my recent trip to Berlin.

Just have the major airlines move to the new Brandenburg one once it opens, alongside Aeroflot (use the old Schonefeld for budget carriers).

And once a significant number of airlines move, you can do a step by step renovation of Tegel.

Berlin is bound to need 2 airports, especially since it's already such a touristy city.
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Old January 21st, 2017, 07:25 PM   #1162
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More Problems.

https://www.thelocal.de/20170117/ber...year-after-all
http://www.bz-berlin.de/berlin/neue-...icht-eroeffnet

seemingly 1200 doors are faulty and so is the sprinkler system. The mayor just cancelled a 2017 opening this afternoon.

80% of doors do not open right...or open at all. How come nobody noticed until now????
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Last edited by sponge_bob; January 21st, 2017 at 07:31 PM.
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Old January 22nd, 2017, 09:07 AM   #1163
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^
If this construction was in Russia, the airport would be operating for years already.
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Old January 22nd, 2017, 02:23 PM   #1164
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I agree. The quality would be much lower though (just hammer the door till they open instead of proper replacement for example). The problem is in confrontation between very high quality standards and expectations of the past and new lower engineering and management skills (and some good old corruption thrown in to the mix).

The first article is hilarious (and really, really sad at the same time):
Quote:
It is now just "20 percent ready" - a long way off the target of 80 percent completion which had been the goal for the end of last year, according to B.Z.
Quote:
In April last year, the airport sacked its former PR chief for being slightly too honest about failures in the project.
Daniel Abbou described previous management as a "s**t show", saying that “up until now official statements always said that the project was going well. That's b******t."
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Old January 23rd, 2017, 02:39 AM   #1165
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I agree. The quality would be much lower though (just hammer the door till they open instead of proper replacement for example).
I don't know, probably during the Yeltsin years. The new terminals that have been built in Russian airports since the renovations started with Moscow Domodedovo are pretty nice I think. There is of cause another Russia beyond the Urals where things are a bit more sketchy.

Berlin Brandenburg though is almost comical how bad it has been managed, especially considering how well other German airports have been handled. Munich, Frankfurt and Dusseldorf are all among the best airports in Europe.
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Old January 23rd, 2017, 02:51 AM   #1166
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Originally Posted by KOZIMIERZ View Post
The problem is in confrontation between very high quality standards and expectations of the past and new lower engineering and management skills.
In every country of the world the airport would have operated since 2012.
Why? Because the major facilities are working already.

The German safety regulations have become so excessively esoteric.
The laws demand every single room in the building to be totally air-conditioned and fire safe. Because this is not ensured, the independent authorities (another German trait) are not allowing the airport to operate. Hence, old/ false cable infrastructure had to removed, redesigned and re-introduced.

All the problems are not politics-related. The architect, a world renowned bureau from Hamburg GerkanMarg and Partner, completely failed this time.

Airports around the world have become standard architecture. The Germans wanted to make this Berlin-one a moon-landing-piece-of-world-science and failed. They set the bar to high.
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Old January 23rd, 2017, 03:33 AM   #1167
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I'm sure airports around the world have very strict safety regulations regarding airports.

Last edited by LtBk; January 23rd, 2017 at 04:19 AM.
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Old January 23rd, 2017, 12:56 PM   #1168
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I'm sure airports around the world have very strict safety regulations regarding airports.
Hardly. Because most airports in the western world are older than 20 years.
None of these airports, including old TXL and almost all German airports would get permission to operate according to current German safety regulations (if been built the same way).
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Old January 23rd, 2017, 02:41 PM   #1169
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Assuming that's the reason. Why have there been so few fires at all those unsafe airports all over the world the recent decades? Wait, there was a deadly one in DUS, Germany! Ok, at a former time, but still in times when Germany long ago was famous for properness, TÜV etc.
In general, everything tends to become overregulated in Germany, focusing on irrelevant details, ignoring the importtant matters.
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Old January 23rd, 2017, 03:34 PM   #1170
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Overregulation is a problem throughout the Western world, so it's not just a German problem. Hopefully something like BER will not happen again.

Last edited by LtBk; January 23rd, 2017 at 05:58 PM.
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Old January 23rd, 2017, 06:28 PM   #1171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by General_FrKr View Post
Hardly. Because most airports in the western world are older than 20 years.
None of these airports, including old TXL and almost all German airports would get permission to operate according to current German safety regulations (if been built the same way).
I don't think so:

http://www.gomadrid.com/transport/terminal-4.html

http://www.heathrow-airport-guide.co.uk/terminal-5.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilbao_Airport
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Old January 23rd, 2017, 07:37 PM   #1172
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He is talking about new airports.
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Old January 23rd, 2017, 08:05 PM   #1173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by General_FrKr View Post
The laws demand every single room in the building to be totally air-conditioned and fire safe.
To be honest I doubt this is true. All rooms accepting passengers or accepting staff on semi permanent basis maybe. I would not consider it too high of a requirement to have occupied rooms fire safe and air-conditioned though. That should be pretty standard nowadays.


Quote:
All the problems are not politics-related. The architect, a world renowned bureau from Hamburg GerkanMarg and Partner, completely failed this time.
I agree. And all subsequent companies trying to fix this disaster failes as well...

Quote:
Airports around the world have become standard architecture. The Germans wanted to make this Berlin-one a moon-landing-piece-of-world-science and failed.
That is a joke right?


Quote:
They set the bar to high.
And thats the sad part. If I had a project that no one could build I would give it to the Germans or Japanese. No longer a good idea though...
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Old January 23rd, 2017, 10:10 PM   #1174
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If I had a project that no one could build I would give it to the Germans or Japanese. No longer a good idea though...
German engineering expertise still works in thousands of companies every day.
This project stalled, but, at some point, will start of.

One major technical design failure was, the fire protection system. The architects didnīt wanted chimneys built in all levels and in the roof. Because of aestethic reasons. Instead, in a fire emergency case, where smoke is involved, they wanted to suck the smoke through openings in the floor. This was an idiotic idea because smoke naturally spreads vertically, to the top.

The independent authorities didnīt gave permission for this system. AFTER it failed and after it was built.
In the end, the last 5 years chimneys were built through the roof in order to suck dangerous fumes to the top.

It was of course not the only self-made problem at the BER construction site. But the planning was one part.
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Old January 23rd, 2017, 10:37 PM   #1175
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I am not saying that German engineering does not work at all. It is just not as excellent as in the past when the best engineering and German engineering were synonyms. Please read last two or three pages for many other examples of big failures. Admittedly these are mostly on government run projects though.
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Old January 24th, 2017, 10:32 AM   #1176
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Originally Posted by General_FrKr View Post
All the problems are not politics-related. The architect, a world renowned bureau from Hamburg GerkanMarg and Partner, completely failed this time.
Come on, you should know better. The mother of all problems at BER is that politicians decided to set the proven concept of a professional main contractor aside and to replace it with project management on their own. Fatal overestimation of their own capabilities.

Grotty project management and controlling is the ongoing result, apparently still not wholeheartedly corrected or even questioned. Leading to the next factor, the as miserable as political supervisory board.
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Old January 24th, 2017, 12:35 PM   #1177
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Come on, you should know better. The mother of all problems at BER is that politicians decided to set the proven concept of a professional main contractor aside and to replace it with project management on their own. Fatal overestimation of their own capabilities.
Half true. Governments around the world are building infrastructure projects themselves. Successfully. The private construction company you are talking about was not willing to take the risk of financial burden.

In the end, the first try, to find a firm who builds the airport failed. Because of the companies. It did cost the BER project 4 years to realize that. (Around 1998-2002) After the process the state side (Berlin/ Brandenburg/ Germany) decided to build the airport at own costs.
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Old January 24th, 2017, 02:01 PM   #1178
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Old January 30th, 2017, 09:34 PM   #1179
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Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
80% of doors do not open right...or open at all. How come nobody noticed until now????
Because is a fake "problem". This airport is not open yet only because of politician and business reasons (Lufthansa). They can "invent" such problems every year telling us that something is still not working fine or that some regulations has changed etc... After few years they will change a main constructor and everything will start from the beginning
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Old January 31st, 2017, 08:16 PM   #1180
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Because is a fake "problem". This airport is not open yet only because of politician and business reasons (Lufthansa). They can "invent" such problems every year telling us that something is still not working fine or that some regulations has changed etc... After few years they will change a main constructor and everything will start from the beginning
"It's a fake!", "It's a conspiracy!"
Tipical words of people like:
http://edition.cnn.com/videos/politi...sponse-sot.cnn

Instead, don't assume conspiracies over neglect and incompetence:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
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