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Old August 6th, 2010, 10:10 AM   #121
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this air terminal is beautiful...

I love it!!!
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Old August 6th, 2010, 03:32 PM   #122
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@Tyron

On the website of Berlin airports it sounds like this:
"The security checking facilities at the new Berlin Brandenburg International Airport BBI are being modified to comply with the new European Union regulations which come into effect on April 2013. The planners have redesigned the terminal to include 32 security lines in a modified configuration, as well as two pavilions on the left and right of the terminal building."
The image shows the north pavilion:



Image: gmp Architekten, JSK International / Visualisation: Björn Rolle
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Old August 16th, 2010, 07:22 PM   #123
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Qantas is eyeing Madrid and BBI as hubs for future growth

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Qantas has warned that it will be seeking new hubs in Europe and thus new travel destinations because of the UK’s recent decision to halt further runway development at London Heathrow and Gatwick on environmental grounds.

Speaking exclusively to ATW's Eco-Aviation Today, Qantas CEO Alan Joyce said the airline, while not ruling out other destinations in the UK, is now eyeing Berlin and Madrid as hubs for future growth. “Certainly the UK is important but we have to look for other gateway opportunities, and with Air Berlin joining oneworld Berlin will be a natural fit,” he said. “We are also looking at Madrid with British Airways to build its operations there with the pending merger with Iberia. Airlines are now making decisions around these new environmental taxes and restrictions such as runways,” he noted. ...
http://atwonline.com/eco-aviation/ar...+Daily+News%29

It would be a great deal for BBI!
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Old August 16th, 2010, 11:10 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by way of thinking View Post
Qantas is eyeing Madrid and BBI as hubs for future growth

http://atwonline.com/eco-aviation/ar...+Daily+News%29

It would be a great deal for BBI!
It would be just as great for Air Berlin and MUC Terminal 1 with the mainline Qantas. The Sydney-centric Qantas is also interested in flying to many destinations in Europe via Singapore through Jetstar. It is too expensive for the mainline Qantas to fly all the way from Australia to many destinations in Europe when the very high-yield O&D demand is NOT there to even recoup the operating costs. Since when Berlin can capture more high-yield demand than Paris can? Besides, the new 787s would not let Qantas fly between SYD and BBI nonstop at all.
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Old August 17th, 2010, 06:58 AM   #125
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It would be just as great for Air Berlin and MUC Terminal 1 with the mainline Qantas. The Sydney-centric Qantas is also interested in flying to many destinations in Europe via Singapore through Jetstar. It is too expensive for the mainline Qantas to fly all the way from Australia to many destinations in Europe when the very high-yield O&D demand is NOT there to even recoup the operating costs. Since when Berlin can capture more high-yield demand than Paris can? Besides, the new 787s would not let Qantas fly between SYD and BBI nonstop at all.
Qantas is restricted to a mere 3 weekly on the Paris route by France so it can't do it profitably.
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Old August 17th, 2010, 01:19 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
Besides, the new 787s would not let Qantas fly between SYD and BBI nonstop at all.
Nonstop flights between Europe and Australia don't exist. You always have to stop somewhere in Asia or Arabia.
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Old August 17th, 2010, 01:44 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
It would be just as great for Air Berlin and MUC Terminal 1 with the mainline Qantas. The Sydney-centric Qantas is also interested in flying to many destinations in Europe via Singapore through Jetstar. It is too expensive for the mainline Qantas to fly all the way from Australia to many destinations in Europe when the very high-yield O&D demand is NOT there to even recoup the operating costs. Since when Berlin can capture more high-yield demand than Paris can? Besides, the new 787s would not let Qantas fly between SYD and BBI nonstop at all.
Why not Berlin as new hub for Qantas future growth in Europe?

- Berlin will be ABs most important hub when opening the new airport BBI, serving its biggest network for future Oneworld partner airlines like Qantas. Nowadays AB serves from Berlin with at least 4 daily flights FRA, MUC, ZRH, VIE, STR, DUS, CGN, NUE and a plenty flights are served two or three times a day (such as MXP, CPH, ARN, ORY, OSL, etc.). AB is planning to expand this network like you can see in the slot announcements for AMS, BSL, BRU, GVA, STN and SOF. And you will find in Berlin also frequently flights in cooperation with future Oneworld partner airlines to HEL, LHR, MAD, DME and LHY in the future.

- from Jan-June this year 20.750 arrivals of australian tourists (114/day) were counted by the BTM (Berlin Tourismus Marketing GmbH), showing a growth rate of almost 30% (figures are without private lodging and holiday apartments)

- compared to Munich there will be less direct competition with *A.

- a cooperation with ABs flights to Bangkok is possible for Qantas. The timeschedule allows a combination of this flights without big effort. So synergetic effects with inclusive services from BER to BKK as well to SIN are possible.

I think the main question is how far AB in cooperation with the Oneworld member airlines is able to engage in competition with *A in continental europe. If they are successful they will also be interesting for German, Austrian, Swiss, Danish, Swedish, Polish, and other companies. Don´t forget, in FRA the transfer rate is 54% and in Munichs *T2 it is about the same. AB gives Oneworld airlines the opportunity to get in competition with this customers in central europe, including high yield services. If it works? We will see in the future.

By the way! Here is a relatively new map from BBI published by Berlin Airports:
http://www.berlin-airport.de/DE/Pres...BIFaltplan.pdf

Last edited by way of thinking; August 17th, 2010 at 02:43 PM. Reason: Adding a link
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Old August 17th, 2010, 02:45 PM   #128
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Having some updates would be awesome.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 01:35 AM   #129
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QF will never ever build a hub in BER or MAD (in fact, with 4 daily terminator flights QF doesn't even have one at LHR). It's just a UK political thing because of taxes and cancelled LHR expansion. If QF is ever to add additional flights to Europe it will be Paris, additional LHR flights or a second FRA flight (FRA-XXX-MEL is often high on the cards, while BKK has the highest chance for being the XXX), every other European airport can only hope for Jetstar from Qantas' Kangaroo route hub Singapore.
It's hard to make profits on the Kangaroo route nowadays. Besides BA and VS, not a single European carrier has been able to maintain Europe-Australia flights since the 90s. And QF won't let dillute yields on its often overbooked but hard to maintain profitable FRA route, that's definitely going to be upgauged to A388 when the versions without F class arrive, by adding an additional German destination. QF already code shares with Deutsche Bahn on ICE trains from FRA to Hamburg, Hannover, Köln, Düsseldorf, Stuttgart, Nürnberg and München, additional feed is provided by Malev from Budapest, Iberia from Madrid and BA from Heathrow. Not to forget flights from Helsinki by Finnair, from London-City by BA, from Zaragozza by IB and from Russian cities by future OW member S7. And as an AB focus city (connections to Hamburg, Berlin, Wien and uncountable leisure destinations are already possible, and more to come with FRA's fourth runway) there will be additional connections possible. So there's not much BER could provide which isn't available from FRA (or LHR). And of course, FRA and especially LHR by far have more and higher yielding O&D traffic than BER... Australia-Germany traffic is mostly German tourists visiting Australia and a few business travellers from or to western Germany.
To come to a conclusion: don't expect QF mainline flights to Berlin in the foreseeable future, unless something unexpected happens and the Middle Eastern carriers as well as Singapore Airlines disappear from the skies...

Last edited by Rohne; August 18th, 2010 at 01:44 AM.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 02:20 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by way of thinking View Post
Why not Berlin as new hub for Qantas future growth in Europe?

- Berlin will be ABs most important hub when opening the new airport BBI, serving its biggest network for future Oneworld partner airlines like Qantas. Nowadays AB serves from Berlin with at least 4 daily flights FRA, MUC, ZRH, VIE, STR, DUS, CGN, NUE and a plenty flights are served two or three times a day (such as MXP, CPH, ARN, ORY, OSL, etc.). AB is planning to expand this network like you can see in the slot announcements for AMS, BSL, BRU, GVA, STN and SOF. And you will find in Berlin also frequently flights in cooperation with future Oneworld partner airlines to HEL, LHR, MAD, DME and LHY in the future.

- from Jan-June this year 20.750 arrivals of australian tourists (114/day) were counted by the BTM (Berlin Tourismus Marketing GmbH), showing a growth rate of almost 30% (figures are without private lodging and holiday apartments)

- compared to Munich there will be less direct competition with *A.

- a cooperation with ABs flights to Bangkok is possible for Qantas. The timeschedule allows a combination of this flights without big effort. So synergetic effects with inclusive services from BER to BKK as well to SIN are possible.

I think the main question is how far AB in cooperation with the Oneworld member airlines is able to engage in competition with *A in continental europe. If they are successful they will also be interesting for German, Austrian, Swiss, Danish, Swedish, Polish, and other companies. Don´t forget, in FRA the transfer rate is 54% and in Munichs *T2 it is about the same. AB gives Oneworld airlines the opportunity to get in competition with this customers in central europe, including high yield services. If it works? We will see in the future.

By the way! Here is a relatively new map from BBI published by Berlin Airports:
http://www.berlin-airport.de/DE/Pres...BIFaltplan.pdf
Thank you Rohne.

In the airline industry, a gateway hub to gateway hub operation is NONSTOP. Such operation these days is developing towards more than TWO daily nonstop flights. Again, B787 cannot fly nonstop from SYD to BER in regular airline passenger services. Beyond North America, fortress hubs are almost always O&D gateways. Don´t think for a moment that Dubai Inc. is just growing Emirates as a transfer airline without a master plan for the economic development of Dubai.

Your proposition is completely unattractive to high yield business travelers. Mainline Qantas is all about high yield business travelers. Berlin is just a DOMESTIC German business destination, unlike Frankfurt and Munich. London - Australia route is the lifeline route for Qantas. Qantas would find a way to fly to London is London were on the Moon!

Frankfurt is a global financial capital and probably the biggest European trade fair capital. Besides, Frankfurt is closest to almost all flagship German tourist destinations, namely the Rhine, the Black Forest and Bavaria, where all international tourists want to visit. Eastern German destinations, except Berlin, simply cannot compete with those destinations above. Frankfurt is also in the heart of the European super highway network. This is not the case with Berlin.

The Australian, British and Asian business customers of mainline Qantas simply do not find Berlin attractive as a global business destination. The sad truth is that Berlin hosts NONE of the global headliner trade shows, while Hannover has CEBIT and Nürnberg has the toy fair. Airlines fly to where the money is rather than staying away from the honey pot. According to your flawed logic, Emirates and Etihad would not fly to Munich because competing Star airlines SQ, LH, TG, NH, LX all fly out of there. Again, Munich is a global gateway rather than a transfer hub.

It is much more likely that Finnair will fly to Sydney via BKK or SIN than Qantas make some kind of hub arrangement in Berlin. Cathay Pacific does not fly to FRA for transfer traffic and neither is its desire to launch passenger flights to MUC. Finnair can take care of the Swedish, Danish companies and northern German companies. Cathay can take care of the southern German and Austrian Companies with its current flights to FRA and MXP and very possible future flights to MUC.

Last edited by aab7772003; August 19th, 2010 at 12:40 AM.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 12:58 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
Thank you Rohne.
...
“Certainly the UK is important but we have to look for other gateway opportunities, and with Air Berlin joining oneworld Berlin will be a natural fit,” is not my statement. This are the words of Alan Joyce (Qantas CEO). I think he will take a flight to Berlin and have another look on the new airport and the concerned opportunities. Personally I consider Berlin as an opportunity for future growth. It is not about switching traffic from LHR to Berlin and it is also not about switching flights from FRA to BER. But maybe future "BBI" with the connecting flights operated by Air Berlin is an opportunity to establish in central europe an alternative product to *A with their LH and SQ services in FRA und MUC. I mean for business travellers to destinations like SYD, MEL as well as for SIN, HKG or BKK. Services including lounges, frequent flyer programms and all that stuff. An alternative product with flights from FRA and BER, a competition between Oneworld and *A. Let me repeat: In FRA as well as in MUC´s terminal 2 the transfer rate is higher than 50%. In Berlin the transfer rate is 1,7% at the moment. This in effect because transfer traffic is almost impossible, at least very uncomfortable in TXL. But this will be changed with opening the new airport. A new situation will arise!
I live in the near of Frankfurt since I changed from Berlin in 2008. And I am also very often in Munich. My picture of Berlin and Germany at all is not the same than yours, it seems to me. We don´t estimate Berlins potential for O&D traffic in the same way. But we will see what the future brings. Nobody knows, all speculations!

Last edited by way of thinking; August 18th, 2010 at 02:25 PM.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 06:32 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by way of thinking View Post
“Certainly the UK is important but we have to look for other gateway opportunities, and with Air Berlin joining oneworld Berlin will be a natural fit,” is not my statement. This are the words of Alan Joyce (Qantas CEO). I think he will take a flight to Berlin and have another look on the new airport and the concerned opportunities. Personally I consider Berlin as an opportunity for future growth. It is not about switching traffic from LHR to Berlin and it is also not about switching flights from FRA to BER. But maybe future "BBI" with the connecting flights operated by Air Berlin is an opportunity to establish in central europe an alternative product to *A with their LH and SQ services in FRA und MUC. I mean for business travellers to destinations like SYD, MEL as well as for SIN, HKG or BKK. Services including lounges, frequent flyer programms and all that stuff. An alternative product with flights from FRA and BER, a competition between Oneworld and *A. Let me repeat: In FRA as well as in MUC´s terminal 2 the transfer rate is higher than 50%. In Berlin the transfer rate is 1,7% at the moment. This in effect because transfer traffic is almost impossible, at least very uncomfortable in TXL. But this will be changed with opening the new airport. A new situation will arise!
I live in the near of Frankfurt since I changed from Berlin in 2008. And I am also very often in Munich. My picture of Berlin and Germany at all is not the same than yours, it seems to me. We don´t estimate Berlins potential for O&D traffic in the same way. But we will see what the future brings. Nobody knows, all speculations!
The statement highlighted in bold font is an PR ploy, made when the announcement of Air Berlin joining Oneworld was made. Qantas would have made similar statement on Finnair and Helsinki if the whole airport tax situation at LHR had been in stalemate when Finnair had formally joined Oneworld.

There are many Germans who just want Berlin to be great (and glorious) once again purely based on emotional ground. Often these Germans just love to make those groundless claims on how soulless and dirty Frankfurt is and how provincial Munich is.

You just love to ignore the fact how little business opportunities are there in Berlin in comparison with Munich and Frankfurt, don´t you? The traffic demand from Business travelers from SYD, MEL, BKK, SIN, HKG, NRT for FRA and MUC is much greater than for BBI. Of course, you cannot accept that emotionally. You live a little bit more than an hour away from Frankfurt. Why isn´t possible to build an alternative TRANSFER product at MUC terminal 1 for Oneworld while the business O&D demand for Munich is much greater than BBI?

VIE is going to have excellent transfer facilities soon too, but it is obvious that the new transfer product from VIE with its long-standing dominance in Eastern Europe will be no match of MUC, FRA and ZRH. The Schengen airport ZRH can do without the hype on BBI because the hypes certainly will do very little to improve the competitiveness of BBI. Good luck to the struggle of BBI to compete with the global leaders MUC, FRA, and the well established leaders ZRH and VIE because it needs all the luck it can get!

Last edited by aab7772003; August 18th, 2010 at 08:23 PM.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 07:33 PM   #133
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Quote:
There are many Germans who just want Berlin to be great (and glorious) once again purely based on emotional ground. Often these Germans just love to make those groundless claims on how soulless and dirty Frankfurt is and how provincial Munich is.
Why do you mention this? It has nothing to do with my considerations and it is ridiculous to say such things, I think.

Quote:
You just love to ignore the fact how little business opportunities are there in Berlin in comparison with Munich and Frankfurt, don´t you?
No I don´t think so. I know there is more economic value in Munich or Frankfurt. But nevertheless I see a big potential for the new airport. It´s my opinion. We could discuss why and why not, but this would be fruitless, in my eyes. There are lots of discussions like that on the net, most of them end up in verbal abuse.

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Of course, you cannot accept that emotionally.
This sentence sounds in my ears very unfriendly. It implies my statements as ignorant and based on wishful thinking.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 08:20 PM   #134
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Why do you mention this? It has nothing to do with my considerations and it is ridiculous to say such things, I think.


No I don´t think so. I know there is more economic value in Munich or Frankfurt. But nevertheless I see a big potential for the new airport. It´s my opinion. We could discuss why and why not, but this would be fruitless, in my eyes. There are lots of discussions like that on the net, most of them end up in verbal abuse.


This sentence sounds in my ears very unfriendly. It implies my statements as ignorant and based on wishful thinking.

You cannot deny the fact that there are many Germans who just want Berlin to be great (and glorious) once again purely based on emotional ground. This is why there are so many hooplas about this airport, like selling pralines from Brandenburg instead of those from Belgium take up so much media space in Germany.

It is all plain hype about restoring Berlin to its all encompassing glory that is no longer relevant today. Frankfurt and Munich are economically important on a global scale while Berlin is not even an economic rival of Hamburg and Cologne/Düsseldorf.

It is perfectly alright to celebrate the developments of BBI, but it is getting so tiresome to hear suggestions of, speculations on and dreams of BBI turning into some kind of galactic gateway, which is clearly NOT going to happen, with every project update.

The ""potentials" of BBI cannot even stack up against the market leadership of ZRH!

Berlin is a truly fantastic place to visit, but then I enjoy visiting Berlin without certain kind of emotional attachments and historical burdens.

Last edited by aab7772003; August 18th, 2010 at 08:42 PM.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 08:32 PM   #135
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Qantas is restricted to a mere 3 weekly on the Paris route by France so it can't do it profitably.
But this has nothing to do with the existing demand.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 08:33 PM   #136
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Nonstop flights between Europe and Australia don't exist. You always have to stop somewhere in Asia or Arabia.
You do not need to tell me that. That is why Qantas was intensely pressuring Boeing to make B787 the game changer on the Kangaroo Route.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 08:43 PM   #137
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You cannot deny the fact that there are many Germans who just want Berlin to be great (and glorious) once again purely based on emotional ground. This is why there are so many hooplas about this airport, like selling pralines from Brandenburg instead of those from Belgium take up so much media space in Germany.

It is all plain hype about restoring Berlin to its all encompassing glory that is no longer relevant today. Frankfurt and Munich are economically important on a global scale while Berlin is not even an economic rival of Hamburg and Cologne/Düsseldorf.

It is perfectly alright to celebrate the developments of BBI, but it is getting so tiresome to hear suggestions of, speculations on and dreams of BBI turning into some kind of galactic gateway, which is clearly NOT going to happen, with every project update.

The ""potentials" of BBI cannot even stack up against the market leadership of ZRH!
Well, if we are speaking about business, Berlin can't be compared with Frankfurt Munich, Hamburg and Cologne/Düsseldorf, but on other hand it's the Capital and the bigger city of Germany. We have also to remember that Berlin is the main tourist and cultural hub of all german speaking word. At the moment Berlin is the only western big capital without a "true" airport andI think it needs it.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 08:59 PM   #138
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We have also to remember that Berlin is the main tourist and cultural hub of all german speaking word (world). At the moment Berlin is the only western big capital without a "true" airport andI think it needs it.
Which is NOT true. Hamburg, Vienna and Munich are up there with Berlin in this regard, as a matter of fact. Many Germans love to fantasize that Berlin is the "German" Paris and London or New York, which is so far from the truth. It is one thing to be very proud of the capital, but it is another thing to pretend that the capital is the epicenter of the German-speaking world and even to trick yourself into thinking that the capital is some kind of intercontinental cross road.

Berlin today is more like Washington, DC.

I NEVER dispute the fact that Berlin needs the new BBI, but instead debunk any myth that Berlin will be the new LHR, FRA, CDG, AMS or even the new MUC.

Last edited by aab7772003; August 19th, 2010 at 05:36 AM.
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Old August 19th, 2010, 07:52 AM   #139
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You do not need to tell me that. That is why Qantas was intensely pressuring Boeing to make B787 the game changer on the Kangaroo Route.
What do you mean? Qantas would like to have B787 which can fly nonstop from Europe to Australia?

No crew can work the 20 hours nonstop so you would need two complete crews onboard. And for passengers its not nice either to sit in a plane for 20 hours. Most people are more than happy to walk around a bit during the stop in Asia. I personally would never book a flight that is 20 hours in the air.
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Old August 19th, 2010, 02:30 PM   #140
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What do you mean? Qantas would like to have B787 which can fly nonstop from Europe to Australia?

No crew can work the 20 hours nonstop so you would need two complete crews onboard. And for passengers its not nice either to sit in a plane for 20 hours. Most people are more than happy to walk around a bit during the stop in Asia. I personally would never book a flight that is 20 hours in the air.
Qantas wanted the B787 to fly nonstop from Australia to Europe. Please do not confuse facts and what Qantas was actually doing with your opinions. If SYD - LHR COULD be flown nonstop, the flight time would be way less than 20 hours. People had been saying what you are saying here decades before SQ and CX launched the nonstop SIN - JFK and HKG - JFK routes respectively.
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