日本語 Japanese language discussion

[castermaild55]

hey NihonKitty..

Japanese to Portuguese dictionary published in Nagasaki, Japan in 1603. It contains entries for 32,293 Japanese words in Portuguese. Only four copies of the original 1603 edition exist. Facsimile editions were published in Japan in 1960 by Iwanami Shoten and again in 1973 and 1975 by Bensey Publishing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippo_jisho
I dont know he could listen and write accurately to Roman character.
however, it is interesting to know the sound at that time

First Gojūon (Fifty Sounds) was established in 1093
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goj%C5%ABon

[ukiyo]

Originally Posted by castermaild55

hey NihonKitty..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippo_jisho
I dont know he could listen and write accurately to Roman character.
however, it is interesting to know the sound at that time

First Gojūon (Fifty Sounds) was established in 1093
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goj%C5%ABon

interesting..nifon became nihon. I wonder what old japanese was like. I think okinawan comes from old japanese too.

[castermaild55]

Originally Posted by NihonKitty

interesting..nifon became nihon. I wonder what old japanese was like. I think okinawan comes from old japanese too.

my guess is ....
korean Hangul was made by this Kana(gojuon) formation?

the most mysterious was Iroha, Ametsuchi no Uta , old counting( hi fu mi yo..) and olds folk song with no meaning

I think many cantrip not to understand the meaning existed.
Manyoshu is also same.
And, the one that the meaning was added is old Japanese by chinese chatacter.?

hi fu mi. is typical


Btw
How about this?
R ルァ　ルィ　ルゥ　ルェ　ルォ
L ラ　リ　ル　レ　ロ　

[ukiyo]

Do you think someone from 2009 can understand japanese from the year 600-700ad?

[castermaild55]

I wonder what old japanese was like. I think okinawan comes from old japanese too

Okinawa is valuable land where the convention and the legend of old Japan Shintoism remain.

[castermaild55]

Originally Posted by NihonKitty

Do you think someone from 2009 can understand japanese from the year 600-700ad?

manyoshu was established around 700 ad
If sentences or poem are corresponding to the conversation at that time , it is possible to understand with knowlege of manyoshu?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man%27y%C5%8Dsh%C5%AB
for example, Umi yukaba in Manyoshu.


http://kokugo.chu.jp/seito/study_roo...u_yomikata.swf
you can understand it , right? but the chinese can not understand it.

[Fox-Tale]

Interesting.
I think Japanese language sounds similar to Polynesian language so I guess Japanese people came from there originally..,
although Japanese people themselves seem to have mixed a lot with ancient Korean, Chinese, Middle Eastern, Portugese/Spanish(especially in Kyusyu area)...and as a result of mixing you will find all kinds of Asian faces in Japan, people who look like Korean, who look like Chinese, who look like West Asian such as Middle Eastern and Indian, people who look like South Asian, etc, etc.. Japan is like a melting pot of Asia.
Even though the blood got quite mixed and kanji, buddhism, and other foreign cultures and customs were imported from abroad, the original sounds of Japanese language don't seem to have changed a lot..

[Fox-Tale]

I found an interesting TV footage about ancient Jew-Japanese connection theory.

http://www.oniazuma.com/2008/01/are-...ooking-at.html

I have no idea if it's correct or not. but I guess at least there was some cultural transmission at that time..

[castermaild55]

Standard japanese today is "based" on kanto dialects but for over a thousand year japans capitol and cultural capital was kyoto and this is where most japanese language was "standardized" (over time, but modern era japanese is standardized from kanto

there are many poems in manyoshu called Sakimori no uta(防人の歌、poems of soldiers garrisoned at strategic posts in Kyushu(dazaifu) ）

Yamato Japan, against the allied forces of Silla and the Tang Dynasty of China. The battle took place in the lower reaches of the Geum River in Jeollabuk-do province, Korea. The Silla-Tang forces won a decisive victory, forced Yamato Japan to withdraw completely from Korean affairs and crushed the Baekje restoration movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Baekgang

after Yamato,Japan lost, many soldiers who were from Kanto and tohoku went to protect kyushu agaist Tang and Silla
I think most of them were emishi
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%98%B2%E4%BA%BA
their poems are used Kanto dialects at that time

Water Fortress

http://www2.city.dazaifu.fukuoka.jp/...eng_kanko.html

[castermaild55]

Originally Posted by Fox-Tale

I found an interesting TV footage about ancient Jew-Japanese connection theory.

http://www.oniazuma.com/2008/01/are-...ooking-at.html

I have no idea if it's correct or not. but I guess at least there was some cultural transmission at that time..

Hi fu mi yo,,, old Japanese counting was hebrew
is it a silly pan?
anyway I was impressed..

Joseph Eidelberg stated that this is a beautiful Hebrew expression, if it is supposed that there were some pronunciation changes throughout history. These words are spelled:
"Hifa mi yotsia ma na'ne ykakhena tavo."



This means: "The beautiful (Goddess). Who will bring her out? What should we call out (in chorus) to entice her to come?" This surprisingly fits the situation of the myth.
Moreover, we Japanese not only say, "Hi, hu, mi...," but also say with the same meaning:

"Hitotsu, futatsu, mittsu, yottsu, itsutsu, muttsu, nanatsu, yattsu, kokonotsu, towo."

Here, "totsu" or "tsu" is put to each of "Hi, hu, mi..." as the last part of the words. But the last "towo" (which means ten) remains the same. "Totsu" could be the Hebrew word "tetse," which means, "She comes out. " And "tsu" may be the Hebrew word "tse" which means "Come out."
Eidelberg believed that these words were said by the gods who surrounded the priest, "Koyane." That is, when "Koyane" first says, "Hi," the surrounding gods add, "totsu" (She comes out) in reply, and secondly, when "Koyane" says, "Fu," the gods add "totsu" (tatsu), and so on. In this way, it became "Hitotsu, futatsu, mittsu...."
However, the last word, "towo," the priest, "Koyane," and the surrounding gods said together. If this is the Hebrew word "tavo," it means, "(She) shall come." When they say this, the female god, "Amaterasu," came out.

"Hi, fu, mi..." and "Hitotsu, futatsu, mittsu..." later were used as the words to count numbers.
In addition, the name of the priest, "Koyane," sounds close to a Hebrew word, "kohen," which means, "a priest." Eidelberg showed many other examples of Japanese words (several thousand) which appeared to have a Hebrew origin. This does not appear to be accidental.

In ancient Japanese folk songs, many words appear that are not understandable as Japanese. Dr. Eiji Kawamorita considered that many of them are Hebrew. A Japanese folk song in Kumamoto prefecture is sung, "Hallelujah, haliya, haliya, tohse, Yahweh, Yahweh, yoitonnah...." This also sounds as if it is Hebrew.

http://www5.ocn.ne.jp/~magi9/isracame.htm

[ukiyo]

I think that the comparison to jews is very far-fetched...if anything there were some jewish travellers who taught old japanese some words but nothing else. Also on the spanish/middle eastern etc while there were some it wasn't a very drastic amount.. Most japanese are from jomon ("native" japanese) which looked semi caucasoid and yayoi which came from eastern china or Korea or both. Many of the japanese who look more caucasian (middle easterner/european) are in the ryukyus or hokkaido where there is more jomon admixture, while mainland japan looks more east asian which studies show is more yayoi.

Japanese took alot of words from german dutch portuguese and english but i think the main things from japanese come from yayoi and jomon but i have no idea which. My guess is most of our vocabulary comes from jomon peoples. I've read alot of articles like that from turkish people as well but in the end japan is still a language isolate! So where does japanese come from !!?? Why dont we have any relative lol. But im pretty convinced japanese has some relationship to korean though..

[cydevil]

Originally Posted by castermaild55

My theory is many Jomon ppls also moved to korean Peninsula like kaya
there are many evidences.

Were the Jomon gold-crazed warriors riding on armored horses as well?

Kaya relic:


The rulers of Silla were of Kaya descent. They're the "Kims". And Haplogroup D, the Jomon gene as you suggest, is nearly absent among tested Korean populations.

Originally Posted by NihonKitty

Most japanese are from jomon ("native" japanese) which looked semi caucasoid

Haplogroup K: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K_(Y-DNA)

Haplogroup D: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_D_(Y-DNA)

[castermaild55]

Originally Posted by cydevil

Were the Jomon gold-crazed warriors riding on armored horses as well?

Kaya relic:


The rulers of Silla were of Kaya descent. They're the "Kims". And Haplogroup D, the Jomon gene as you suggest, is nearly absent among tested Korean populations.



Haplogroup K: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K_(Y-DNA)

Haplogroup D: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_D_(Y-DNA)

Traffic is not always one way..
an evidence is Magatama
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magatama


Talhae of Silla

Talhae of Silla (?-80, r. 57-80) was the fourth king of Silla, one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea. He is commonly called Talhae Isageum, isageum being the royal title in early Silla
Background
He was a member of the Gyeongju Seok clan, one of the noble clans that shared the Silla throne during the early Common Era.

He was born in a small kingdom 1000 li northeast of Wa (Japan).[1] [2] (The name of the kingdom is Dapana-guk 다파나국 多婆那國 according to Samguk Sagi, or Yongseong-guk 용성국 龍城國

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talhae_of_Silla

Hogong

Hogong was a minister of Silla in the age of nation-building. It is recorded that he was originally from the Wa people of Japan, though his surname or clan name was unknown to the compiler of the Historical Records of the Three Kingdoms.[1] He was called Hogong (meaning "Duke bottle gourd") because he was putting on his bottle gourd when he came from Japan. He was a very important person in initial Silla because he appeared in stories of primogenitors of all royal families.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogong

the Jomon gene as you suggest, is nearly absent among tested Korean populations.

they might came back after battle of Kudara as refugees
all of them were killed and there might be no future as slaves .
and mimana japan gervernment in Korean Peninsula was destroyed in 562ad..
anyway it was as same as ......
most Japanese came back from manchu, korea and taiwan after ww2

In case of Kudara.


Wajin in korea according to chinese documents
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%80%...96%87%E7%8C%AE

[princeofseoul]

Castermaild, you seem quite well informed. I would like to know your opinion about this:

"
The immediate classification of Japanese is clear: it is a Japonic language, along with the Ryukyuan languages. Traditionally, these are considered dialects of a single language isolate. However, more distant connections remain contentious among historical linguists. The possibility of a genetic relationship to the Goguryeo (Koguryŏ) language has the most currency; a relationship to Korean is widely considered but is problematic; an Altaic hypothesis is less widely accepted. A few linguists support the hypothesis that Japanese is genealogically related to the Austronesian languages.
"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanes...classification

What do the japanese scholars think of the link Kogurio(高句麗)/Japanese?

[cydevil]

Originally Posted by castermaild55

Traffic is not always one way..
an evidence is Magatama
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magatama

You're right. Traffic is not always one way. But you speak as if Kaya has anything to do with Jomon aside from trade.

they might came back after battle of Kudara as refugees
all of them were killed and there might be no future as slaves .
and mimana japan gervernment in Korean Peninsula was destroyed in 562ad..
anyway it was as same as ......
most Japanese came back from manchu, korea and taiwan after ww2

"Kudara" was the most populous kingdom of Korea. You may as well suggest the Yayoi killed all the Jomons when they migrated to Japan.

The Japanese are really unique. They have a significant ancestry from the Jomons. But for whatever reason, some Japanese would like to assert their Jomon-uniqueness to a totally unassociated group.

[ukiyo]

castermaild あなたの職業は何ですか？あなたは日本の歴史について色々知ってるようですが、先生ですか？
昔の日本語と昔の沖縄の言葉と現代の日本語を比較した図か何かありますか？
Okinawan

Okinawan dialects retain a number of old grammatical features, such as a distinction between the terminal form (終止形) and the attributive form (連体形), the genitive function of が ga (lost in the Shuri dialect), the nominative function of ぬ nu (Japanese: の no), as well as honorific/plain distribution of ga and nu in nominative use.

One etymology given for the -un and -uru endings is the continuative form suffixed with uri (Classical Japanese: 居り wori, to be; to exist): -un developed from the terminal form uri; -uru developed from the attributive form uru, i.e:

kacuru derives from kaci-uru;
kacun derives from kaci-uri; and
yumun (Japanese: 読む yomu, to read) derives from yumi + uri.
A similar etymology is given for the terminal -san and attributive -saru endings for adjectives: the stem suffixed with さ sa (nominalises adjectives, i.e. high → height, hot → heat), suffixed with ari (Classical Japanese: 有り ari, to exist; to have), i.e:

takasan (Japanese: 高い takai, high; tall) derives from taka-sa-ari;
atsusan (Japanese: 暑い atsui, hot; warm) derives from atsu-sa-ari; and
yutasaru (good; pleasant) derives from yuta-sa-aru.

If okinawan and japanese both come from the same language..and okinawan are considered more jomon than mainland japanese then im guessing japanese for the most part comes from the jomon people?

[castermaild55]

You're right. Traffic is not always one way. But you speak as if Kaya has anything to do with Jomon aside from trade

OK,I restate it with WA people.
WAhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wa_(Japan)

Kudara" was the most populous kingdom of Korea. You may as well suggest the Yayoi killed all the Jomons when they migrated to Japan

???


this is D2 roots

why were they in only Japan.
I guess they arrived southern korea peninsula,too.
where had they gone?
answere is simple, right?

[castermaild55]

castermaild あなたの職業は何ですか？あなたは日本の歴史について色々知ってるようですが、先生ですか？

単なる暇人

昔の日本語と昔の沖縄の言葉と現代の日本語を比較した図か何かありますか？
Okinawan
If okinawan and japanese both come from the same language..and okinawan are considered more jomon than mainland japanese then im guessing japanese for the most part comes from the jomon people?

It is called okunawan manyoshu




http://www2.odn.ne.jp/~had26900/index.htm

[cydevil]

Originally Posted by castermaild55

OK,I restate it with WA people.
WAhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wa_(Japan)

Doesn't matter. Good luck on convincing the academia that these gold-crazed armor-clad horseriders somehow came from Japan.

this is D2 roots
why were they in only Japan.
I guess they arrived southern korea peninsula,too.
where had they gone?
answere is simple, right?

That's 50,000 years ago, according to your own map. They were entirely replaced by neolithic migrants on the Asian mainland. So the answer is simple. They survived on Japan, but not on the Asian mainland. Whichever the case, the Jomon have nothing to do with iron-age states on the Korean peninsula.

Originally Posted by NihonKitty

If okinawan and japanese both come from the same language..and okinawan are considered more jomon than mainland japanese then im guessing japanese for the most part comes from the jomon people?

http://www.springerlink.com/content/.../fulltext.html

Everything you need to know is on that study, which is the basis of everything castermild's been talking about.

[castermaild55]

Whichever the case, the Jomon have nothing to do with iron-age states on the Korean peninsula.

Jomon age was before BC2000
when was iron-age in Korean peninsula?

I only offer a document of third parson about that
according to 魏志倭人伝( Book of the Later Han) in 3rd C
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_Later_Han
Wa ppl ,they use Iron
http://www.max.hi-ho.ne.jp/m-kat/nih...ikaku-gisi.htm
they have a tatoo on face.
there are many tatoo ppl in korean peninsula becasue Wa is near

according to 魏志東夷伝, they are fighting over iron in kaya
http://www.ceres.dti.ne.jp/~alex-x/kanseki/gi-toui.html

and 魏書・烏丸鮮卑東夷傳第 in 3rd C in chinese
弁辰条(Byeonhan confederacy)

According to the 3rd century Chinese chronicle Wei Zhi, Byeonhan was known for the production of iron; it exported iron to the Chinese commanderies to the north, Yamato Japan and the rest of the Korean peninsula. It was also a center of stoneware manufacture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byeonhan_confederacy

國出鐵，韓、濊、倭皆從取之。諸巿買皆用鐵，如中國用錢
As for this country, iron is produced.
Han , WA etc come to buy this iron
Money of China is used to buy this.
今辰韓人皆褊頭。男女近倭，亦文身
This county's manners and customs are Yamato people's one and puts the tattoo in the whole body　because wa(yamato) is near
at first, Jinhan confederacy ,then this coustoms spreads to Byeonhan confederacy...


according to silla document of Samguk Sagi though this document is not reliable because it was witten
in 12thC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samguk_Sagi
AD 50, Wa ppl tried to advance to Frontier
BC14, 100 ships of WA came to korean coast to land..

三国史記（新羅本紀）
紀元前50年　倭人達が兵を率いて辺境を侵そうとしたが、始祖に神徳があるということ聞いて、すぐに帰ってしまった。
紀元前20年　春二月に、瓠公を馬韓に派遣して、外交関係を結ぼうとした。馬韓王が瓠公に「辰・卞二韓は、わが属国であったのが、近年には貢物も送らない。大国につかえる礼が、これでいいのか」といった。これに対して瓠公は「わが国は二聖が国をたててから人心が安定し、天の時が和して豊作となり、倉庫は満ち、民が互に敬い譲るので辰韓の遺民から卞韓、楽浪、倭人にいたるまで恐れ、かつ、したわないものはありません。しかし、わが王は謙虚で、下臣を遣わして国交を結び交わそうとするは、過ぎたる礼というべきであります。それなのに、大王はかえって怒り、兵を似ておどかすのは、これ何の意味でありますか」といった。馬韓王はますます怒って瓠公を殺そうとしたが、左右の臣たちが諫めてやめさせ、許して帰した。これより先、中国人たちは秦国の乱に苦しみ、東方へ亡命してくる者が多かったが、かれらは馬韓の東に多く住み着いて、辰韓人たちと雑居していた。この時にかれらの数が多く、栄えたので、馬韓ではこれを忌み嫌って責めたものである。瓠公という人は、その族姓がつまびらかではないが、元は倭人で、はじめ瓠を腰につって海を渡って来たために瓠公と称した。
14年　倭人が兵船百余隻で海辺に侵入。
57年　4代王「脱解尼師今（一云吐解）立。時年六十二。姓昔。妃阿孝夫人。脱解本多婆那國所生。其國在倭國東北一千里」脱解は多婆那国で生まれ、その国は倭国東北一千里にあり。
59年　夏の五月に倭国と友好関係を結んで修交し、使者を派遣し合った。
73年　倭人が木出島を侵して来たので、王は角干羽鳥を派遣して、これを防がせたが、勝てずして羽鳥が戦死した。
121年　夏四月に倭人が東の辺境を攻めた。
123年　春三年に倭国と講和した。
158年　倭人が交際のために訪れた。
173年　倭の女王卑弥呼が使わした使者が訪れた。(「二十年夏五月。倭女王卑彌乎。遣使来聘」)
232年　夏四月に倭人が金城を包囲。
233年　五月　倭兵が東辺を攻めた。
249年　夏四月に倭人が舒弗邯、于老を殺した。
287年　夏四月に倭人が一礼部を襲う。
289年　夏五月に、倭兵が攻めてくるということを聞いて、戦船を修理し、鎧と武器を修理した。
292年　夏六月に倭兵が沙道城を攻め落とす。
294年　夏　倭兵が長峯城を攻めて来た。
295年　春　王が臣下に向かって「倭人が、しばしばわが城邑を侵して来るので、百姓が安じて生活することができない。私は百済と共に謀って、一時海を渡って行って、その国（倭）を討ちたいが、皆の意見はいかがか?」ときいた。これに対して、舒弗邯、弘権が「われわれは海戦に不慣れでございます。冒険的な遠征をすれば、不測の危険があることを恐れます。いわんや百済は偽りが多く、常にわが国を呑み込もうと野心をもっておりますから、かれらと共に謀ることは困難だと思います」と答えた。王はこれを聞いて「それもそうだ」といった。
300年　春正月に、倭国と使者を派遣し合った。
312年　春三月に、倭国の国王が使臣をつかわして、息子のために求婚したので、王は阿飡の急利の娘を倭国に送った。
344年　倭国が使者をつかわして、婚姻を請うたが、すでに以前に女子を嫁がせたことがあるので断った。
345年　二月に倭王が、書を送って国交を断ってきた。
346年　倭兵が風島に来て、進んで金城を包囲して攻めて来た。
364年　倭人は多数をたのんで、そのまま直進して来る所を伏兵が起ってその不意を討つと、倭人は大いに敗れて逃走した。
393年　倭人が来て金城を包囲し、5日も解かなかった。
402年　三月に倭国と通好して、奈勿王の子、未斯欣を人質として倭に送った。
405年　倭兵が明活城を攻める。

They survived on Japan, but not on the Asian mainland

I am talking about korean peninsula because korea is so near
I think it is sure for them to land on Korea if landing on Okinawa and Kyushu.