daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old February 23rd, 2009, 05:21 PM   #21
Momo1435
-----アンジュルム-----
 
Momo1435's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: アルフェナンデンライン
Posts: 35,260
Likes (Received): 63091

Something tells me that iampuking wasn't talking about just railways.
__________________
Support your Idols
キタ ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ ฅ(๑⊙д⊙๑)ฅ!! ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━!!!
Japan Projects & Construction
Momo1435 está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old February 23rd, 2009, 05:33 PM   #22
JoKo65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,111
Likes (Received): 86

Yes, but the question is, do we need a standard for everything in Europe? Why should we need a standard platform height? It makes no sense, a Velaro E will never go to Germany or Russia, a Velaro RUS will never go to Germany or Spain and a TGV will never go to northern England or Scotland. For connections between France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany we have special trains, which can deal with different standards, that's less expensive than creating standards for everything and everyone.
__________________
L'Amerique? C'est l'évolution de la barbarie ŕ la décadence, sans toucher la culture.
JoKo65 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 23rd, 2009, 05:49 PM   #23
honwai1983
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 68
Likes (Received): 1

I think, if platform level is same as train level, get on and off of train will faster and safe.
However, different standard of praform height will affect to achieve that goals.

(If train can adjust its height to plaform level is more easy to achieve that goal)
honwai1983 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 23rd, 2009, 06:48 PM   #24
Republica
BUND
 
Republica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 4,036
Likes (Received): 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
Yes, but the question is, do we need a standard for everything in Europe? Why should we need a standard platform height? It makes no sense, a Velaro E will never go to Germany or Russia, a Velaro RUS will never go to Germany or Spain and a TGV will never go to northern England or Scotland. For connections between France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany we have special trains, which can deal with different standards, that's less expensive than creating standards for everything and everyone.
I disagree completely. Standards are things that reduce costs if impletmented correctly and sensibly. In fact, lowering costs and raising efficiency is the reason standards exist!

However, I dont think that platform heights are crucial... The Eurostar already copes with the low platforms in France with the steps that come down. Also, to say that a train from russia wont go to spain and that a tgv wont go to scotland, I think you may be wrong. When the UK builds its line to Scotland theres no reason not to have a long distance Glasgow to Paris train taking about 4 hours.
__________________
Rant
Republica no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 23rd, 2009, 06:59 PM   #25
JoKo65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,111
Likes (Received): 86

Quote:
Originally Posted by Republica View Post
I disagree completely. Standards are things that reduce costs if impletmented correctly and sensibly. In fact, lowering costs and raising efficiency is the reason standards exist!

However, I dont think that platform heights are crucial... The Eurostar already copes with the low platforms in France with the steps that come down. Also, to say that a train from russia wont go to spain and that a tgv wont go to scotland, I think you may be wrong. When the UK builds its line to Scotland theres no reason not to have a long distance Glasgow to Paris train taking about 4 hours.
This train won't be a normal TGV but a special train for this connection like the Eurostar for example.
That's what I say, there will be special trains for special connections.
__________________
L'Amerique? C'est l'évolution de la barbarie ŕ la décadence, sans toucher la culture.
JoKo65 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 23rd, 2009, 10:08 PM   #26
bluemeansgo
Registered User
 
bluemeansgo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 451
Likes (Received): 124

Just install hydraulics.
image hosted on flickr


I wonder if Japan's platforms are the same standard as Korea's or China's. I somehow doubt it.

Japan's trains were largely built as a sealed system by one country which was more or less homogenous when it started building rail. It's not surprising that Japan's platforms are the same.

One could also say: How come the metro for [insert major city like Tokyo|London|New York) here] wasn't built 100% fully accessible for people with limited mobility(wheelchairs/scooters), but the metro in [insert city with newer metro here] was?

Because when these systems were built, accessibility wasn't as big an issue, and not as important...

The same is true with platform heights. It simply wasn't as important when it was built to co-ordinate with other countries... especially when trips were measured in days, and not hours.
bluemeansgo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 23rd, 2009, 10:09 PM   #27
Republica
BUND
 
Republica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 4,036
Likes (Received): 3

Yes, its a long long way off, but never say never. I think in the end the standards will be Harmonised to a large degree, inc. loading guage on HS2 and the only sticking point will be channel tunnel safety regulations. So yes if they can get past that a Eurostar could go from Glasgow to Paris in a viable time.
__________________
Rant
Republica no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 23rd, 2009, 10:44 PM   #28
Micrav
Live!
 
Micrav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Somewhere between Paris and Riga
Posts: 698
Likes (Received): 16

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
Just install hydraulics.
I agree, hydraulics or air or a similar system! This is an interesting way to regulate height in stations and also to make pendolino trains and have extra confort 3 in 1. I already thought about it but not for this precise problem of platform height

It already works for busses to lean to allow wheelchairs to get in easyer...
Micrav no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 23rd, 2009, 11:02 PM   #29
Republica
BUND
 
Republica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 4,036
Likes (Received): 3

I'm surprised France didnt invent trains with hydraulic suspension like their crazy citroens
__________________
Rant
Republica no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2009, 12:37 AM   #30
rheintram
yeah, whatever
 
rheintram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,606
Likes (Received): 926

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
Yes, but the question is, do we need a standard for everything in Europe? Why should we need a standard platform height? It makes no sense, a Velaro E will never go to Germany or Russia, a Velaro RUS will never go to Germany or Spain and a TGV will never go to northern England or Scotland. For connections between France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany we have special trains, which can deal with different standards, that's less expensive than creating standards for everything and everyone.
yeah right... trains that go up and down... lol. Do you have a clue how much it costs to build trains which are able to cope with all the different types of electrifications, signalling, etc.?

And you clearly don't live close to a border. Well I do and here we have trains from Switzerland, Germany and Austria and they all use the same platforms and tracks and they work because at least there are some standards.

In fact standardization is much cheaper than each shitty village having it's own rules and ways of doing things.
rheintram no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2009, 06:22 AM   #31
UD2
A very cool person
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,294
Likes (Received): 31

Quote:
Originally Posted by iloveshinkansen View Post
Most Japan's look standard and always as high as the train's door while in Europe (even TGV) always lower than the train's door.
Newer system, more modern design.

Japan's system was designed by set of governing rules. Europe on the other hand...

And plus, high platforms cost money.
__________________
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed" - President Eisenhower
UD2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2009, 08:53 AM   #32
JoKo65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,111
Likes (Received): 86

Quote:
Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
yeah right... trains that go up and down... lol. Do you have a clue how much it costs to build trains which are able to cope with all the different types of electrifications, signalling, etc.?
Do you have a clue how much it would cost to change electrification types, signalling and gauges to achieve a european standard?
No chance, forget about it!


Quote:
Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
And you clearly don't live close to a border. Well I do and here we have trains from Switzerland, Germany and Austria and they all use the same platforms and tracks and they work because at least there are some standards.
I live near the Belgian border and I know that Thalys works well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
In fact standardization is much cheaper than each shitty village having it's own rules and ways of doing things.
You mean in theory, not in fact.
__________________
L'Amerique? C'est l'évolution de la barbarie ŕ la décadence, sans toucher la culture.
JoKo65 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2009, 12:20 PM   #33
Republica
BUND
 
Republica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 4,036
Likes (Received): 3

Yes, in theory and most of the time in practice standardisation is cheaper in the long term, its obvious. Its the way that you get to standardisation that is the tricky bit.
__________________
Rant
Republica no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2009, 12:35 PM   #34
Grunnen
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 1,098
Likes (Received): 58

Quote:
Originally Posted by UD2 View Post
Newer system, more modern design.

Japan's system was designed by set of governing rules. Europe on the other hand...
Why do you lump all of Europe together? In the Netherlands and the UK, all platforms have the same height, just like in Japan.
Grunnen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2009, 12:55 PM   #35
JoKo65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,111
Likes (Received): 86

Quote:
Originally Posted by Republica View Post
Yes, in theory and most of the time in practice standardisation is cheaper in the long term, its obvious. Its the way that you get to standardisation that is the tricky bit.
An example: On the way from Paris to Cologne we have three electrification systems, six train control systems and three platform heights. What do you think is cheaper, to buy trains like Thalys PBKA which can cope with these different systems or to change the whole infrastructure?
__________________
L'Amerique? C'est l'évolution de la barbarie ŕ la décadence, sans toucher la culture.
JoKo65 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2009, 01:12 PM   #36
loefet
Registered User
 
loefet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Göteborg
Posts: 525
Likes (Received): 233

Europe have developed a new controlling system that is going to be implemented in the future to replace all old train control systems with a standard one.
So one step in the right direction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETCS
loefet no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2009, 03:03 PM   #37
JoKo65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,111
Likes (Received): 86

Quote:
Originally Posted by loefet View Post
Europe have developed a new controlling system that is going to be implemented in the future to replace all old train control systems with a standard one.
So one step in the right direction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETCS
Yes and it is overpriced and does not work correctly. So perhaps it will be a standard in mmmmh, let me say 20–30 years?
__________________
L'Amerique? C'est l'évolution de la barbarie ŕ la décadence, sans toucher la culture.
JoKo65 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2009, 03:33 PM   #38
Republica
BUND
 
Republica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 4,036
Likes (Received): 3

You are thinking short to medium term Joko. In the long run the standards will replace older ones and EU standards will be more widely used.

That doesnt equate to ripping up all platforms etc!
__________________
Rant
Republica no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2009, 07:02 PM   #39
rheintram
yeah, whatever
 
rheintram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,606
Likes (Received): 926

Funny that you mentioned Thalys...

Quote:
Äußerlich ähneln sich der Thalys PBKA und der TGV-Duplex durch die gerundete Nase, technisch gesehen sind sie aber dem TGV-Réseau ähnlich. Neu an diesem Zug ist, dass er mit vier unterschiedlichen Strom- und sieben verschiedenen Signalsystemen zurechtkommt. Vor allem deshalb ist der Thalys PBKA um 50 % teurer als der TGV-Réseau
Short translation: The Thalys PBKA trains, based on TGV-Réseau are 50% more expensive than TGV-Réseau because it has to cope with four different electrification and seven different signalling systems. Hence the initial plan to order 27 units was dropped and only 17 were ordered, the other 10 were TGV-Réseau units.

ETCS was only necessary because France and Germany were both so stubborn to insist on their national systems and not accept either one of them as a common standard, hence a new standard had to be implemented.

As railcorridors are upgraded and modernized all the time, it makes much more sense to build or upgrade them according to a common standard and in contrast to JoKo65's claims it isn't more expensive, rather the contrary.
rheintram no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2009, 07:56 PM   #40
pcrail
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 83
Likes (Received): 13

ETCS:
There will be a very long way to have this system working European wide. The vehicles equipped with ETCS can up to today only work on the lines where they are designed for. Locomotives which can work the Betuwe route in Holland may not work in Switzerland or in Austria without expensive adaption. The actual status is:
  • The definitions of signalling terms is standardised
  • The interface train - track is almost standardised
  • The software is definitely not standardised. Up to now each country uses different functionalities. For not delaying start of the revenue service on a particular project the functionality of ERTMS software has been limited to the functionality the railway lines really use.
  • Homologation and validation of ETCS software is very time consuming and too complicated till now.
A good overview about the actual status of ETCS you can find in Schweizer Eisenbahn Revue 2/2009 (in German).

Electrification systems:
No, this is not a problem anymore. Today's technology can handle that.

Signaling:
Yes, this is a serious problem, doesn't matter if it is ETCS or not. The apparatus of the signalling system is always very expensive.

Platforms: (the original topic)
Ripping out all the platform seems to me too expensive. It is better to adapt the railway cars to different platform heights. Technique for that is today available.
pcrail no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium