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Old February 26th, 2009, 08:47 PM   #41
rheintram
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Where's the problem with the platforms? Every station is renovated once in a while, usually after a few decades at latest. Perfect time to build new platforms.
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Old February 27th, 2009, 03:10 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Grunnen View Post
Why do you lump all of Europe together? In the Netherlands and the UK, all platforms have the same height, just like in Japan.
This is a good point.

In actual fact, Japan's system, if I'm not mistaken, was modelled after the British system... which could partially explain why it's standardized.

Getting the European nations together is a challenge. Not only are they different countries, but to a large extent, built their systems separately.

One could make a counter point and ask why Japan's rail system has mixed gauges in one country.

The answer is the same as the platforms question.

When the track was put down, they didn't foresee needing to spend the greater amounts of money to achieve the higher speeds that standard gauge allowed for.
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Old February 28th, 2009, 06:12 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
Funny that you mentioned Thalys...



Short translation: The Thalys PBKA trains, based on TGV-Réseau are 50% more expensive than TGV-Réseau because it has to cope with four different electrification and seven different signalling systems. Hence the initial plan to order 27 units was dropped and only 17 were ordered, the other 10 were TGV-Réseau units.

ETCS was only necessary because France and Germany were both so stubborn to insist on their national systems and not accept either one of them as a common standard, hence a new standard had to be implemented.

As railcorridors are upgraded and modernized all the time, it makes much more sense to build or upgrade them according to a common standard and in contrast to JoKo65's claims it isn't more expensive, rather the contrary.
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Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
Where's the problem with the platforms? Every station is renovated once in a while, usually after a few decades at latest. Perfect time to build new platforms.
There are probably a MILLION railway platforms in europe ... or even more ???

Standard door heights are either 1 ,2 steps higher than the platforms (regional and old mainstations) or even NO platform at all (some old regional stations) ... most modern comuter-stile stations have high platforms in lot''s of urban areas ... but nonetheless it's very common to have 1 step down coming out of ANY train in europe (At least).

On the other hand ... not every train is built with the same door height either.
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Old February 28th, 2009, 08:11 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by pcrail View Post
The vehicles equipped with ETCS can up to today only work on the lines where they are designed for. Locomotives which can work the Betuwe route in Holland may not work in Switzerland or in Austria without expensive adaption.
But would they work any better without ETCS?

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Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
a TGV will never go to northern England or Scotland. For connections between France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany we have special trains, which can deal with different standards, that's less expensive than creating standards for everything and everyone.
Why do you think it will never go to Scotland? Because it's too difficult and they would need special trains. In the long run, standardisation is always more cost-effective and opens up a lot of opportunities.
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Old February 28th, 2009, 09:20 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
Funny that you mentioned Thalys...

Short translation: The Thalys PBKA trains, based on TGV-Réseau are 50% more expensive than TGV-Réseau because it has to cope with four different electrification and seven different signalling systems. Hence the initial plan to order 27 units was dropped and only 17 were ordered, the other 10 were TGV-Réseau units.
[…]
Thalys PBKA is more expensive than TGV but it is cheaper than rebuilding the whole Paris–Cologne line.


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Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
As railcorridors are upgraded and modernized all the time, it makes much more sense to build or upgrade them according to a common standard and in contrast to JoKo65's claims it isn't more expensive, rather the contrary.
How often railcorridors are upgraded and modernised? Once in 100 years? Do you know how old are many lines and stations in Germany?
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Old February 28th, 2009, 09:23 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Maxx☢Power View Post
But would they work any better without ETCS?
Why not?


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Originally Posted by Maxx☢Power View Post
Why do you think it will never go to Scotland? Because it's too difficult and they would need special trains. In the long run, standardisation is always more cost-effective and opens up a lot of opportunities.
It cannot go to Scotland because it cannot use the Chunnel.
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Old February 28th, 2009, 09:57 PM   #47
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Why cant people see that introducing standards means that over the long term costs can be reduced and things become easier. Standards dont mean ripping up huge amounts of platforms.

And I would bet that within 30 years we see trains travelling to scotland direct from paris.
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Old March 1st, 2009, 12:31 AM   #48
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I saw a DB ICE3 in Brussels today coming from Frankfurt (about 400km trip)... So we see now something else than TGVs, Eurostar and Thalys in Brussels...

Speaking about different standards...
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Old March 1st, 2009, 02:53 PM   #49
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Why cant people see that introducing standards means that over the long term costs can be reduced and things become easier. Standards dont mean ripping up huge amounts of platforms.

And I would bet that within 30 years we see trains travelling to scotland direct from paris.
It is no problem to go from Paris to Scotland, but a special train like the Eurostar is needed, with a normal TGV it is not possible to cross the Channel. It would be to expensive to build all trains according to the safety rules of the Chunnel. That is a good example for a case where standardisation would not make a sense.
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Old March 1st, 2009, 02:58 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Micrav View Post
I saw a DB ICE3 in Brussels today coming from Frankfurt (about 400km trip)... So we see now something else than TGVs, Eurostar and Thalys in Brussels...

Speaking about different standards...
That was no ICE 3 but an ICE 3M. It is a special train, which can run in Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany. A normal ICE 3 cannot go to Belgium.

ICE 3 = normal ICE 3 for Germany.
ICE 3M = Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany (M = Mehrsystem --> multisystem).
ICE 3MF = France, Germany (MF = Mehrsystem Frankreich --> multisystem France).
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Old March 1st, 2009, 06:04 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
It is no problem to go from Paris to Scotland, but a special train like the Eurostar is needed, with a normal TGV it is not possible to cross the Channel. It would be to expensive to build all trains according to the safety rules of the Chunnel. That is a good example for a case where standardisation would not make a sense.
The Chunnel is the only obstacle that stops a TGV going to northern england, (assuming a high speed line is built), since all new HSR lines are built with ERTMS and hence are interoperable (the ICE3 and TGV both use the LGV Est). The Chunnels strict fire rules make it expensive for passenger trains. The eurostar has extensive fireproofing and fireproof doors between carriages, not to mention two parallel systems in each half of the train so it can split into two.
In face rail companies, DB especially i think, are now lobbying Eurotunnel to relax the rules so they can make inter-regional services between south east england and norther france / belgium
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Old March 1st, 2009, 06:20 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by london24/7 View Post
[…]
In face rail companies, DB especially i think, are now lobbying Eurotunnel to relax the rules so they can make inter-regional services between south east england and norther france / belgium
Lobbying won't work there, the strict rules make sense. This is the reason why DB now is interested in buying the british part of Eurostar.
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Old March 2nd, 2009, 04:46 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
yeah right... trains that go up and down... lol.
You do realize there are trains that physically "adapt" to different platform heights already? Good example would be the ET425.15 of S-Bahn Hannover, which use full at-grade entry on 760mm platforms, and when encountering a line section with lower platforms lower a step right behind the door to form a stair to the platform.
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Old March 3rd, 2009, 09:08 PM   #54
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The whole point of standard platforms is that you don't have steps in the train, even when they can be lowered up and down automatically.
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Old March 4th, 2009, 11:19 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
Why not?
Wouldn't the systems be different anyway? Standardisation doesn't mean everything has to change, it means that if we're going to change something or build something new, let's make sure we do it the same way so it's interoperable. There are no downsides to doing that.
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Old March 7th, 2009, 09:55 PM   #56
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Lobbying won't work there, the strict rules make sense. This is the reason why DB now is interested in buying the british part of Eurostar.
No - only SOME of the rules make sense.
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Old August 7th, 2009, 08:04 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by JoKo65 View Post
It is no problem to go from Paris to Scotland, but a special train like the Eurostar is needed, with a normal TGV it is not possible to cross the Channel. It would be to expensive to build all trains according to the safety rules of the Chunnel. That is a good example for a case where standardisation would not make a sense.
Why do you people always make bias out of everything ...


This IS a REGULAR TGV trainset ... they use them by the dozen:




Actually SNCF could start today to link northern scotland with belgium and italy if they so desired ... they ACTUALLY OWN the trains to do so if they wish.

And I bet you that it wouldn't bother them to get some 16Kv versions in a scotland-france-germany service.
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Old August 7th, 2009, 08:07 AM   #58
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No - only SOME of the rules make sense.
Germany uses a different current than france and the UK ... ERTMS solves the signaling problems ... strict safety rules apply ... what remains to be done is for Siemens to built a ICE3-whatever trainset that actually fill's all the required points.
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Old August 7th, 2009, 11:32 AM   #59
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Germany uses a different current than france and the UK ... ERTMS solves the signaling problems ... strict safety rules apply ... what remains to be done is for Siemens to built a ICE3-whatever trainset that actually fill's all the required points.
And to rebuild all stations for the check in procedures. Thats's not very likely!
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Old August 7th, 2009, 02:19 PM   #60
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Lobbying won't work there, the strict rules make sense. This is the reason why DB now is interested in buying the british part of Eurostar.
I'm shure the Gotthard base tunnel will have less strict rules (though being longer), because international trains will go though it.
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