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Old May 14th, 2009, 09:57 AM   #221
FM 2258
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Originally Posted by Jay View Post
I mean those are cool but kind of fugly, and what are you talking about? North America has more railroad history than almost anywhere else in the world!!

The rest of the world outside of North America needs more of these (They might have these in South America and Australia but I'm not sure).

Now THAT is a train. Freight diesel engines in the North America look like they can kick some serious ass while trains in other places look kinda pansy to me.
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Old May 14th, 2009, 10:12 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
Now THAT is a train. Freight diesel engines in the North America look like they can kick some serious ass while trains in other places look kinda pansy to me.
Yes, our trains (or rather locomotives) do have a brutish appeal about them. As far as "kicking ass", I don't think this is a monster truck pull competition, but to humor you- I don't think that GE would stand a chance mano y mano in a pulling competition with any of those pansy furriner electric locomotives, don't you think? (albeit we're comparing apples to oranges here...)
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Old May 14th, 2009, 10:19 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
Yes, our trains (or rather locomotives) do have a brutish appeal about them. As far as "kicking ass", I don't think this is a monster truck pull competition, but to humor you- I don't think that GE would stand a chance mano y mano in a pulling competition with any of those pansy furriner electric locomotives, don't you think? (albeit we're comparing apples to oranges here...)
Yes! Against this one, they will loose:


quote: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...e_11.08.04.jpg


quote: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ORE_Kiruna.jpg

--> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IORE
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Old May 14th, 2009, 12:23 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
Now THAT is a train. Freight diesel engines in the North America look like they can kick some serious ass
Yes, in super slow motion. Kind of like a fat guy kicking your ass by sitting on top of you.
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Old May 14th, 2009, 12:45 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
Yes, our trains (or rather locomotives) do have a brutish appeal about them. As far as "kicking ass", I don't think this is a monster truck pull competition, but to humor you- I don't think that GE would stand a chance mano y mano in a pulling competition with any of those pansy furriner electric locomotives, don't you think? (albeit we're comparing apples to oranges here...)
Basically I think it will be a draw since i do not think the wheels will maintain grip on the steel rails.
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Old May 14th, 2009, 06:29 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by AAPMBerlin View Post
Oh yes! Only the British can say :" Javelin is a HST!" *HAHA*

You call 140mph HST?????????????????????????????

Sorry, but I have just to laugh....

--> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_395

....
125mph is the continental standard of HSR.

The Javelin train is an HSR train. What, I think you're confusing is: It's running on commuter lines and part of the Eurostar link. It's not a dedicated HSR on dedicated segregated track, but it is a high speed train taking advantage of the spare capacity between London and the channel tunnel.
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Old May 14th, 2009, 07:37 PM   #227
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I think you have a severe case of Britophobia. Lots of people get it, so dont worry.

Your every post here have been lame digs at Britain. Most of it uninformed and ignorant. In addition you may notice that the original poster started thread on the basis of their opinion. You seem to have a secondary disease on top of the Britophobia problem. This secondary problem is your confusion of facts an opinion. You moan about a thread started as a debate instigator, an opinion. Yet you present your opinion as fact and quite ridiculously you even said this yourself - ignorant and uninformed. The confusion of fact and opinion is also a common problem, so dont be worried about that either. It's normally contracted from excessive reading of tabloid newspapers or poor quality journalism, from Britain or abroad too.

Where are you from, just out of interest?

PS. Did you not notice that TGV's run slower on non high speed lines?

bla bla bla bla bla.

I already said: your d***head pal started with it. But who's mind about the old british chunks?
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Old May 14th, 2009, 07:42 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
Now THAT is a train. Freight diesel engines in the North America look like they can kick some serious ass while trains in other places look kinda pansy to me.
The diesel engine just move the generator, wich produce electric power that feed the motor. The full electric loco have more power, but the diesel ones are more heavier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
Yes, our trains (or rather locomotives) do have a brutish appeal about them. As far as "kicking ass", I don't think this is a monster truck pull competition, but to humor you- I don't think that GE would stand a chance mano y mano in a pulling competition with any of those pansy furriner electric locomotives, don't you think? (albeit we're comparing apples to oranges here...)
Power against the weight? The full electric locos are more powerfull than the diesel-electric ones, wich are heavier.

But this is not the midwest, you cant put two locos as trucks pulling themselves.
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Old May 14th, 2009, 07:49 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Papacu View Post
The fact is that the british trans are not only ugly but old, unconfortable and dirty.
The one I get every morning is very clean and comfortable, as have most of the ones been that i've taken in recent years. Looks are a subjective thing as can be seen from this thread

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But i think it's just a waste of time: how can we comparate the british rail infraestructure with the rest of the europe? Or Japan? It's just ridiculous!
"The rest of Europe" is a big and varied place, the British rail infrastructure isn't as good as in some parts of continental Europe but equally it's better than in many other places.
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Old May 14th, 2009, 10:01 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Papacu View Post
bla bla bla bla bla.

I already said: your d***head pal started with it. But who's mind about the old british chunks?
A slightly childish response there. I'm starting to think that you are in fact a child.

Your last sentence makes no sense by the way.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 01:01 AM   #231
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by the way, your beloved javelins sure look a lot like the JR 885 Series. I honestly dont think British designers had much to do with how that train looks. Granted, the tube rolling stock is special.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 01:38 AM   #232
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The one I get every morning is very clean and comfortable, as have most of the ones been that i've taken in recent years. Looks are a subjective thing as can be seen from this thread
Agreed. When I had to commute to work by rail every day over the past year, I traveled on what are arguably the worst trains on the UK network (Pacers), and although they weren't great, I certainly wouldn't call them terrible. They were usually on time, relatively comfortable, and did the job. Although it was nice when the occasional sprinter took the route
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Old May 15th, 2009, 04:03 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by AAPMBerlin View Post
Oh yes! Only the British can say :" Javelin is a HST!" *HAHA*

You call 140mph HST?????????????????????????????
WOW! Now I saw what DL3000 wrote and figured why the fast javelins aren't that fast.
They are intended to be used as commom express trains in Japan. At first, I thought they was derived from the tsubame shinkansen, which is made by hitachi too.
That's why they're slower even to the british railways! They are most like commutters than HST.




Hey, I reduced the pics from wikipedia that you posted above and uped it to imageshack. Please change it, because it's defacing the page.

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/7803/iorekiruna.jpg

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/641...ivare11080.jpg

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Originally Posted by dl3000 View Post
by the way, your beloved javelins sure look a lot like the JR 885 Series. I honestly dont think British designers had much to do with how that train looks. Granted, the tube rolling stock is special.
In fact, they are the JR 885 series. They are kinda fast commutter trains used to do intermunicipal links in the extreme south of Japan, at Shikoku. Well, at least, the Hitachi trains looks better than the Kawasaki ones.

Quote:
Wikipedia
The 885 series (885系 ?) is a type of electric multiple unit used on the limited express routes of JR Kyushu, the company that operates passenger services on the island of Kyushu in Japan. The type is part of Hitachi's A-train family of multiple units, and has been optimised for the longer distance routes over the island.

Although only capable of 130 km/h, the tilt mechanism means most journeys can be made in around two hours.

The 885 series has been used as the basis for the bodyshell of the Class 395 EMU intended for the United Kingdom.

The Tsubame 800 series is slightly slower than its predecessors, the 500 Series Shinkansen and 700 Series Shinkansen: it will only reach a maximum speed of 260 km/h (160 mph) in service, although its maximum design speed is 285 km/h (177 mph).



British Class 395 "Javelin"


JR 885 Series "Kamome"


Tsubame Shinkansen (this is an HST)

Last edited by Papacu; May 15th, 2009 at 04:18 AM.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 04:26 AM   #234
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125mph is the continental standard of HSR.

The Javelin train is an HSR train. What, I think you're confusing is: It's running on commuter lines and part of the Eurostar link. It's not a dedicated HSR on dedicated segregated track, but it is a high speed train taking advantage of the spare capacity between London and the channel tunnel.
The Javelins have a operating speed comparable to the initial Shinkansen trains (0 and 100 series, both from the 60~70s when Shinkansen first opened, which max out at 210~230km/h), but when it comes to continental standard, the French classic lines already have a top speed of 220km/h, which is only 5km/h slower than Javelins. The Intercity 225 also have a design top speed of 140mph/225km/h which is never utilised due to the lack of in cab signalling, and I presume the "Super Express" trains can run on HS1 without problem, as ETCS compatability should be taken into consideration when designing the trains.

However I wouldn't say Javelin is not HSR, because the service still uses part of the HSR tracks (HS1 is built in LGV standard). Similar services are the Mini Shinkansen which run on both Shinkansen and Zairaisen (Classic Lines upgraded to standard gauge) lines, and I believe the Javelins are designed with lower speed for cost saving, and probably the higher acceleration that is obtained (think about gear ratios etc.).

By the way, the continental standard of HSR is 250km/h and above, anything lower than that can only be classified as "Intercity" services.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 05:26 AM   #235
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You have the right to admire your country, praise your trains, the typical british grin, the typical british skin, but without bashing the others.
Says who? You? Where does it say in the forum rules that you can't express an opinion on something?

You accuse others of precisely what you're guilty of yourself - stating your opinions as fact. I suggest you have a proper look at your previous posts and learn to respect others' views.

I wonder how many people talking about how terrible the railways in Britain are have actually ridden trains there? I ask this honestly, because I recently took a train to Manchester and was thoroughly impressed by how fast and smooth the journey was (and I have ridden shinkansen, TGV and Eurostar many times). Before I actually tried the trains, I would've told you 'yes, we need HSR.' Now, I'm not so sure. I think WCML Pendolinos are perfectly sufficient. ECML up to Newcastle is also perfectly sufficient. Trains to Scotland seem to be the only bottleneck.

So, maybe they don't run quite as fast as in France or Germany in km/h. But they run about as fast as they need to given our geography and proximity of our major cities. If I can take a train from Manchester to London in two hours, or London to Newcastle in under three hours, is it really so different to travelling between major cities in France or Germany?

If there really was a genuine need for higher speeds, don't you think we'd have them by now? Perhaps, gasp, people don't care that much? (and I'm not talking about a bunch of railway fans on the Internet, but the average taxpayer who would have the fund construction of new lines)

Take a look at the following list of the UK's major metro areas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...United_Kingdom

1 Greater London Urban Area 8,278,251
2 West Midlands Urban Area 2,284,093
3 Greater Manchester Urban Area 2,240,230
4 West Yorkshire Urban Area 1,499,465
5 Greater Glasgow 1,168,270
6 Tyneside 879,996
7 Liverpool Urban Area 816,216
8 Nottingham Urban Area 666,358
9 Sheffield Urban Area 640,720
10 Bristol Urban Area 551,066

Aside from Glasgow, all of these cities you can get to from London in under three hours. The top four are within just two hours of eachother.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 06:00 AM   #236
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Before I actually tried the trains, I would've told you 'yes, we need HSR.' Now, I'm not so sure. I think WCML Pendolinos are perfectly sufficient. ECML up to Newcastle is also perfectly sufficient.
Overcrowding does happen in parts of the British railway network. The main objective of any HSRs for Britain is more about congestion relief than actually raising linespeed and reducing journey times, although this is a bonus. British trains are excellent but the maintenance of tracks used to be terrible (remember crashes that happened in Paddington, Hatfield and Potter's Bar etc.), and would cost a fortune to get upgraded and improved - in fact more than what a HSR would cost (the WCML modernisation for Pendolino has cost more than what a HSR, even maglev would've cost, according to the campaigners). In such situation the most cost effective option would (still) be building a brand new HSR to bypass all the bottlenecks, and free up capacity for slower services, rather than building additional tracks on existing lines and installing in cab signaling.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 06:37 AM   #237
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Given how badly they estimated the cost of the WCML project, I wouldn't put much faith in any HSR line estimates. Especially considering how densely populated the region is - all the compensation that would have to be paid to residents, the tunnels and viaducts that would have to be built because of our uneven topography. I can quite easily imagine costs skyrocketing.

France is completely different, geographically. It's flat until the Alps, and has double the amount of land for the same population. You can't compare the two.

And this is purely anecdotal, but that wonderful fast train I took to Manchester was something like 80% empty. I also recently took a fast train up to Newark on the ECML - that was half empty.

In contrast, on every occasion I have taken a shinkansen it has been packed out. The scale of the populations of Tokyo and Osaka, and the sheer necessity of those lines, is on an entirely different level to the UK. So, I wonder, if we went to this great expense building shiny new HSR lines, how much use would they get - realistically?

I know this is anecdotal, and I'd love to see some statistics on ridership levels if they're available. I just didn't get this impression of congestion. It seems you have some experience living in Japan as well - surely you'd agree that congestion is on an entirely different scale to the UK? (Especially commuter lines - people don't know the definition of a crowded train in England!)

One time I even had to stand up on a shinkansen journey from Echigo Yuzawa. In my 20 odd years living there I have never had to stand up on an intercity train in England.

In a world of unlimited resources I'd have an HSR line built in a flash. In the real world, everything has to face a cost/benefit analysis. I'm no longer fully convinced that the likely cost of an HSR would be sufficiently beneficial.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 07:29 AM   #238
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I know this is anecdotal, and I'd love to see some statistics on ridership levels if they're available. I just didn't get this impression of congestion. It seems you have some experience living in Japan as well - surely you'd agree that congestion is on an entirely different scale to the UK? (Especially commuter lines - people don't know the definition of a crowded train in England!)
Actually I have no experience living in Japan but I used to be a passenger (not as frequent but mostly on pear hours) of Midland Mainline and Thameslink between Bedford and London (I fly between London and Hong Kong a lot and also go down to London quite often), and most of the time you'd need to pay First Class fare in order to get a seat, and most people just end up standing or sitting on the floor...it's even worse if you need to catch a flight afterwards, with all your luggage and no luggage space left.

I've traveled on Pendolino (Class 390), Meridian and Shinkansen 500 series but NOT TGV. IMO Shinkansen is definitely better due to the much wider body (hence much more accessible and luggage-friendly). Pendolinos may look pretty but comfort-wise I'll give HST my vote.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 11:59 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by taikoo.city View Post
The Javelins have a operating speed comparable to the initial Shinkansen trains (0 and 100 series, both from the 60~70s when Shinkansen first opened, which max out at 210~230km/h), but when it comes to continental standard, the French classic lines already have a top speed of 220km/h, which is only 5km/h slower than Javelins. The Intercity 225 also have a design top speed of 140mph/225km/h which is never utilised due to the lack of in cab signalling, and I presume the "Super Express" trains can run on HS1 without problem, as ETCS compatability should be taken into consideration when designing the trains.

However I wouldn't say Javelin is not HSR, because the service still uses part of the HSR tracks (HS1 is built in LGV standard). Similar services are the Mini Shinkansen which run on both Shinkansen and Zairaisen (Classic Lines upgraded to standard gauge) lines, and I believe the Javelins are designed with lower speed for cost saving, and probably the higher acceleration that is obtained (think about gear ratios etc.).

By the way, the continental standard of HSR is 250km/h and above, anything lower than that can only be classified as "Intercity" services.
My mistake, the EU actually considers 200kmh (125mph) to be high speed on old track. 250kmh for dedicated new track.

The original poster was laughing at the fact "The British" are trying to flog the Javelin service as an HSR service. It's clear that it's a fast commuter service taking advantage of free paths between the Eurostar services. It is not promoted as a long distance HSR service whatsoever. After all the Eurostar used to run on commuter tracks - it's an HSR train, but clearly did not run as HSR in the UK.

I think a lot of the critics here have not actually traveled on BR. The UK runs more 100mph+ trains on more miles route than any other EU nation. The intercity services are reliable, frequent and comfortable. The commuter networks likewise are excellent. Whilst the UK government has dragged its feet over the development of dedicated HSR, the remaining infrastructure has seen investment and improvements unlike many true HSR countries which neglect their traditional rail services.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 02:18 PM   #240
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The UK runs more 100mph+ trains on more miles route than any other EU nation. The intercity services are reliable, frequent and comfortable. The commuter networks likewise are excellent. Whilst the UK government has dragged its feet over the development of dedicated HSR, the remaining infrastructure has seen investment and improvements unlike many true HSR countries which neglect their traditional rail services.
Hear hear! Many of the regional lines, such as the Welsh Marches Line (Crewe-Shrewsbury-Hereford-Newport), despite being diesel operated and constructed in the mid-19th Century, actually have linespeeds of 90 or 100mph. Which is enough for the services they carry (i.e. 2 or 3 car DMUs, which call at stations every 20 miles or so, mainly for leisure travellers). And I also believe that Great Britain (can't really say "the UK" in the context of railways as Northern Ireland is on the quite separate and different gauged Irish network) has the most quadruple track lines in the world.

As for the need for newly-built dedicated HSR in Great Britain - it's not that necessary, though if we want to expand the network and increase capacity overall (which is what the main issue is) then we might as well build a new line, which would in this day and age naturally be HSR, from London to Scotland via some of the major conurbations on the way. This would relieve the West Coast Mainline for more general inter-city and regional trains and freight use. But speed doesn't really matter in the UK - increasing the journey speed from London to Manchester from its current 125mph to 186mph is not going to save that much time. Currently trains take just 2 hours to go from Manchester to London (and there's a train every 20 minutes!) so we already have a good service there.
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