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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:09 PM   #141
flierfy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
so....these dont look "tram like" but other high speed trains do?

or do you consider these good looking because they are british?
You have obviously not understood what he/she meant by saying tram-like. Maybe it should rather be named low-floor-tram-like to be better understood.
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 12:53 AM   #142
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ah, so now we're getting specific, good

sooner or later it will only be high speed trains that look like a siemens combino, but not other tram designs seen in trains
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 01:34 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
There are good, much better than their diesel counter part the Voyagers
But they mounts the ex Fiat tilting technology (now own by Alstom) and they are not British made.....The British tilting train , the APT, was a failure.... very prone to derailment.
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 02:13 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
But they mounts the ex Fiat tilting technology (now own by Alstom) and they are not British made.....The British tilting train , the APT, was a failure.... very prone to derailment.
You are talking crap!

The technology of Pendolinos is originally British. APT was a success in terms of how it worked. They did not derail. The project was abandoned because of politics.
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 02:20 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
But they mounts the ex Fiat tilting technology (now own by Alstom) and they are not British made.....The British tilting train , the APT, was a failure.... very prone to derailment.
Derailment? What? When?

APT was a failure because BR had problems of commitment and the British tabloids to deal with. BR sold the technology to the Italians. Who sold trains back to Britain. The fact APT ran a train at 155mph back then on conventional rail lines to me at least is a 'success'. But the British don't like success. Always dwelling on negatives and then bitching about foreign technology imports
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 03:41 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
But they mounts the ex Fiat tilting technology (now own by Alstom) and they are not British made.....The British tilting train , the APT, was a failure.... very prone to derailment.
I made it pretty clear that most British trains arn't British but you've jumped on it like a hungry chicken. If it runs on British Rails and has Class xxx on it, its British because its used, owned and designed for Britain.
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 04:10 PM   #147
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Its a massive shame they didn't press ahead with the APT. It isn't as good looking as the Pendolino's we know today, but it certainly did the job.
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 07:17 PM   #148
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i say the Class 390 is the successor of the APT that i don't understand the hatered on the class 390.

also i tend to like good looking trains that functions and i got to say alot of the trains that i see in british railways today well the newer ones look so beautifully designed that they have so much diversity to them, which makes it exciting to see so much differences between a class 377 and a class 390 lets say.

granted there needs to be more electrification in British railways as well since it brings so much improvements but maybe with now with the investment of the Intercity Express Programme, Crossrail, High Speed 2 and etc there will be more Electrified Railways in British.
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 08:10 PM   #149
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Indeed. There are some routes being seriously considered for electrification. The Glasgow-Edinburgh route and the Transpennine route for example.
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 08:32 PM   #150
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Scotland is pretty much committed to rolling electrification, its just a matter of how fast they get around to it.

In England, they are deciding whether to electrify the midland main line and western main line later this year i believe. And i think the answer is going to be a big yes.
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 11:08 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andysimo123 View Post
I made it pretty clear that most British trains arn't British but you've jumped on it like a hungry chicken. If it runs on British Rails and has Class xxx on it, its British because its used, owned and designed for Britain.
But they a built to British designs and specifications...
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 11:24 PM   #152
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But they a built to British designs and specifications...
yea, and the sun revolves around..
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 11:30 PM   #153
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...Britain. Didnt you know?
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Old March 24th, 2009, 01:50 AM   #154
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...Britain. Didnt you know?
^ Unfortunately, it just never actually hits it.
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Old March 24th, 2009, 03:12 AM   #155
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^ Unfortunately, it just never actually hits it.
Ah, the great weather myth that keeps pesky tourists (bar 30 million) off our sun blessed islands
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Old March 24th, 2009, 11:53 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
Yeah, I always tend to find that trains in other countries always have some weird feature. If its lots of very narrow windows, for a strangely high roof, or some odd cab design at the front or something else...

I always think English trains have the best proportions and the best overall appearance...

Here are some examples of what I think look weird...









And just to compare those last few EMUs with this, a Class 323 English EMU, which I think looks much better...

because they are designed aerodynamically to go beyond 250km/h...
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Old March 25th, 2009, 03:30 AM   #157
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Since when has a Japanese metro train gone beyond 250km/h?
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Old March 25th, 2009, 03:59 AM   #158
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Derailment? What? When?

APT was a failure because BR had problems of commitment and the British tabloids to deal with. BR sold the technology to the Italians. Who sold trains back to Britain. The fact APT ran a train at 155mph back then on conventional rail lines to me at least is a 'success'. But the British don't like success. Always dwelling on negatives and then bitching about foreign technology imports
Not quite so.

The first Fiat single car prototype teh ETR Y1060 (I think) run successfuly in 1970. The first 4 carriages train ran in revenue 2-3 times a week in 1973 on the Rome -Ancona Route. 10 year later the APT was still derailing.


Firstly, the APT had articulated bogies on the passenger cars and two non tilting power cars in the middile of the train.

So any carriages with articulated bogies was non-tilting correctly, and the two locomotives in the middle of the train were not tilting at all.

It was like having a "snake with a bad spinal chord".

Furthermore the train was split into two trains. For a pasenger it was imposbile to go from cr 1 to (passeger car 12).

Secondly the APT had no gyroscope which can sense the changes in the outer track prior to the beginning of the curve.

The gyropscope sense the beginning of the supra-elevation of the external track and start tilting the train accordingly.

Thirdly: The ETR401 and its successor have devices that filter the track imperfections.

Fourthly the APT had a lot of other new innovative features , which required a long time to fix. The BR engineers put in a single train too many things with to many diverse and opposing solutions, this would have required at least 30 years to get a prototype which, eventually, could work.


Having said that , once the APT project was scrapped , Fiat bought the licence of the APT project. On never knows...among the mess there might have find some useful.


But the Italian tilting train was running on revenue service since 1973.

It was only the shortshightness of the (FS) Italian Rail Managers the reson why FS did not order an entire fleet of Pendolinos in 1973.

Only in 1985, having a half of a fast line built, the Florence- Rome, capable of 250km/h and no train capable of such speed, the FS Managers "suddenly" decided to order a fleet of maxi-pendolino (The ETR450s) composed of 6- 9 carriages per train.

Given the short deadline to build these trains, Fiat did not have the time to upgrade the electrical parts (mootrs, etc) of the ETR450 (the maxi-pendolino).

Still, even built with the techonogly of the '70s,used on the ETR401, the ETR450 offered superb performances. It had good accerleration, a top speed of 250km/h nd it was capable of tilting 10 degrees (10 degrees of cant deficeny. And on the old, very busy historical lines it was offering better time journeys than the ETR500 which is " a wheelbarrow renamed red-arrow"

Last but not least.

The Virgin version of the Italian Pendolino has shorter carriages, narrover seat and seat pitch, narower cabin, due to the smaller UK loading gauge. Also Class 390 (the Virgin Tilter") has lower power, slower acceleration and lower speed than the Italian pendolinos.

Perhaps it is worth mentioning that in the mid -eighties/early ninenties Open University's TV programs on rail transports were still praising the APT , declaring , with a certain degree a ignorance and pompousness, "that it was the best and most advanced train in the world.

They were totally unaware that Italy had the ETR450, and Sweden had the X2000.

These were the rail expert!!!!!!!!

The same happend with Modern railways magazine.

I complained both with BBC and Modern Railways.

A few months later an article on the Italina ETr450 appeared on Modern Railways.

I can understand if a layman has no idea if in the rest of the world there is no tilting train in service,, but the very fact that top Biritsh rail engineers were sayng and teaching this rubbish is total nonsense.

If nothing else, utterly unfair to their students.

Sorry for the typo etc.

I will edit this post later.

Have a nice evening.

Last edited by joseph1951; April 3rd, 2009 at 06:07 PM.
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Old March 25th, 2009, 04:44 AM   #159
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Japan was running their first tilting trains in 1972 (though it have passive tilting). And after having been on some of them in Japan I have to say that they are really nice to ride.

Also comparing APT with X2(000) is a bit wrong since X2 went into service in the 90's quite some time after they were testing APT.
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Old March 25th, 2009, 01:15 PM   #160
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When did it derail?
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