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Old April 14th, 2009, 03:28 AM   #101
ARTIFORT
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I am so sorry that I only reply now. I have been very busy in Madrid and Bilbao but I will not bore you with details. Now I have little time but I will respond.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FromJoanne View Post
"What I find annoying is the fact that nobody warned me about the amount of poverty in this city and I was not aware that I can't walk around with my camera during the day"

What I find annoying ... Is that when people travel some are too lazy or not bothered to find out what their host country is going to be like Especially with the internet at your fingertips ...I am sorry I feel no sympathy that you were not aware of poverty in South Africa It beggars believe but
I do feel sorry you were mugged. I dont know any other city i would rather live in BTW I am a foreigner myself and only arrived here a couple of years ago
I am lucky enough to travel more than the average person and I do as much research as I can with the time that I do have which is very little and I am sorry to tell you that most of the cities that I have been to are not like Cape Town. The only city that I have been to that closely resembles Cape Town is Rio de Janeiro. People are more honest there and tell you to not walk here and do not look like a tourist. My Hotel, Le Meridien Copocabana have notes in the room that warn you about muggings and not to leave the hotel room before 9am etc. I did not see this in my hotel room in Cape Town. I am also happy for you that you have found your piece of happiness but because you love it doesn't mean everybody does. I wish you much happiness and be careful in the parks (one of your posts said how dangerous it is).

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Originally Posted by annman View Post
Wow Artifort... you are a cosmic target! I can understand why you sound so angry, but you seem to have been a victim of one thing and one thing only. Pure, ordinary damn bad luck! I've lived in South Africa since 1987, and I've only been the victim of crime once, when I was mugged in Stellenbosch, in the middle of the night, near a dodgy taxi rank. I've never been sworn at by a beggar, I've been at traffic lights and been solicited by hordes of informal traders and sellers, but they've never made me feel I was in personal danger.
I am not angry I am dissappointed. A grande difference. I must have bad luck only in Cape Town then, oh well that excuses everything.

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Originally Posted by annman View Post
But, when it comes to the people telling you about immigrating. Generally South Africans are not very appreciative of their country, until they leave it. They generally have some psyche-block when it comes to seeing the good in SA. Then, they leave to Europe, UK, Australia or USA, realise the real world isn't the romanticised version they always see, then many return to South Africa. You met some very negative people. Most I know love Cape Town and many others love the rest of South Africa. As I said, you had a very negative experience.
I meet many South Africans all over the world who are very happy with their decision. The South Africans do very well for themselves from what I see and they get good jobs. The ones that I have met miss their country because that is what they know but they will never go back. That is their decision to be respected. I get the feeling that you are romanticizing and I can prove this.

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Originally Posted by annman View Post
I went to Paris and say Paris through the eyes of Parisians... I loved the city, however I know many people who hate Paris and say it's pompous, the people are rude, there's grafitti everywhere, dog poo on sidewalks etc. etc. But, I did not see just that, I thought the city was spectacular... just shows how frame of reference is what creates perception.
Paris is a big city compared to Cape Town and yes it does have problems but I feel much safer in Paris than Cape Town. I heard terrible things about Cape Town and I did see these terrible things. Much worse than I had expected. Maybe I expected better.

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Originally Posted by annman View Post
On the "where's the Africa," "where's the integration!" The African architecture comment has NO bearing on Cape Town. Read our history... as a city, we were established primarily by the Dutch! Then followed by the French Huguenots then the British. Africans in the bantu sense only started becoming a major minority in Cape Town in the 1970's. Our heritage is the architecture you saw... it looks European because the city is just that, Africanising our buildings would be creating the Disney factor, because then we're catering to "what the unread tourist expects.". If you want "African" you have to venture further north.
You miss my point, I apologise, it must be my bad english. I was making reference to the new architecture. I am aware of the history and your heritage buildings are very quaint. Thanks kindly to Joanne for posting the pictures of Canal Walk, that is what I was referring to. I saw many such new buildings and the office that I went to looked like a Greek temple, very horrible. I just think that the city should create a more contemporain look with an African heritage. I hope that I explain better.

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Originally Posted by annman View Post
Nope. Crime has been decreasing very rapidly in the city. Crime is at very low levels in most inner-city areas. High-crime rates are usually only found in outer-areas like shanty towns. The push to live in apartments for those reasons is not evident here at all. People live in apartments, because they want to be close to work, restaurants, street life, nightlife etc. Cape Town's urban fabric is not nearly as dense and will not be nearly as dense as Brazilian cities anytime in the near future.
As I said I think that you romanticize. You and other people here told me to do research and I went into the South African forum and did some reading there before I went to Cape Town. They say that locals know best right ? You say this all the time and I can remember you saying that the city is safe and that there is only crime in the favelas. People listen, there is crime everywhere in Cape Town, be very careful. Don't be as stupid as me who takes the word of a romanticist. Rather be honest with people and save yourself the embarrassment. Other than that I can recommend a visit to Cape Town.

Quote:
Originally Posted by annman View Post
South African cities' anatomy does not resemble Brazil's at all. Our cities' more resemble an Australian urban anatomy. If you browse through the pics, you'll see Cape Town more resembles the urban environment of a Melbourne or Perth rather than a Sao Paulo or Rio.
Another romantic idea. Cape Town cannot be more different than Melbourne or Perth. Cape Town is a smaller version of Rio de Janeiro with exactly the same problems and an interesting setting. I am very interested to see why you think that Cape Town is like Australian cities. I will read your response but now I must prepare for my next trip. Je vous remercie de m'avoir ici
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Old April 14th, 2009, 04:54 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias Offodile View Post
Oh my God, changing beautiful Cape town for the US would have been a regrettable decision...it is like moving form heaven to hell!
Are you serious with such comment? You are actually comparing a huge country with a small city???
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Old April 14th, 2009, 09:08 AM   #103
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Artifort. I'm not going to answer every rebuttal. I do not have the time unfortunately. As I said in my original reply. You had a terrible experience and are deeply deeply in the minority of the general thoughts of Cape Town. I do know what I'm talking about, I'm not even pure Capetonian, I'm American, but have lived here for almost 18 years, have lived in America again, and for that matter in Europe. I have global reference and have been to S.America and Oz, I'm not talking from a position of ignorance or a position of blind-SA-patriotism.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do, but hey... many people hate Paris, I don't know why... Some people hate NY, I don't know why, some people hate Cape Town for that matter, I don't know why?

Left at that, now leave me to my job of posting pictures. Thank you.
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Old April 14th, 2009, 09:55 AM   #104
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I have really been scratching my head over how Annman thinks Cape Town anatomically resembles the urban environment of Melbourne or Perth. Having been to both countries all I can say is neither Melbourne or Perth have sprawling squatter camps interspersed between high end suburbs. Please elaborate as to why you think they are similar?
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Old April 14th, 2009, 10:53 AM   #105
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Mr Kiwi Fruit, you have proven yourself to be an absolute trouble maker in South African Forums over and over again, so your questions are always met with suspicion and are seen within the context of having a sinister hidden agenda to disrupt and derail a thread.

How is Cape Town one large squatter camp (shanty town/favella)? When last have you been on Google Earth? When last have you, as an expat that actually really dislikes South Africa, been back here again to make a fair 2009 judgment? Only when driving the N2 does one see this, all other Cape Town motorways, M5, M3, N1, N7 all look like Western Urban Suburbia, maybe with some low-income council-type housing in between. Of Cape Town's land area, only approximately 7% is shanty town, 25% is low-income housing, the rest of the urban anatomy is middle class with some upper class to very wealthy areas. I'm not talking out my bum here, my Aussie friends, one in particular from S.Aus, said Cape Town looks like an Adelaide with a mountain... not my opinion, that of an Aussie.

Your comment only focuses on the far south-eastern sector of Cape Town. The northern, north-eastern, central, southern and western sectors of the city look more like Australian cities, than any other suburban model.

I will answer your questions if posed in a civil manner.

Last edited by annman; April 14th, 2009 at 11:02 AM.
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Old April 14th, 2009, 11:05 AM   #106
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My questions are always civil, but they are not always received in that manner in this forum. Two areas in particular come to mind when taking into account your comparisons. That is the R300 drive, and Hout Bay. Everyone knows that google earth is not up to date so why would I like to use that for a reference. I would rather hear it from someone who is actually living there at the moment like yourself. Therefore my surprise at your comparison.
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Old April 14th, 2009, 11:18 AM   #107
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GoogleEarth on Cape Town is up-to-date. Satellite imagery is from March last year, pretty current even by their standards. Obviously, being part of Africa, there will be some shanty towns and subeconomic housing, but as for Cape Town, it does not nearly consume the majority of the land area or define the city and its layout. The southern half of the R300 has "RDP housing" (council housing for those who don't understand the terminology). But to paint a picture that the city resembles the interwoven favellas of Brazilian cities or the intricate squallor/wealth mix of some Indian urban areas is a misnomer and is not the current reality on the ground or what the majority of visitors and residents alike experience. Of the 3.3million Capetonians, about 800,000 live in such areas, the rest are low-middle, middle to upper class. The city centre of Cape Town has much more in common with it's European counterparts than any place like Nairobi, Lagos or Dakar.
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Old April 14th, 2009, 11:26 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by annman View Post
Your comment only focuses on the far south-eastern sector of Cape Town. The northern, north-eastern, central, southern and western sectors of the city look more like Australian cities, than any other suburban model.

I will answer your questions if posed in a civil manner.
Hout Bay is South Western. What would be interesting to know is what the population of these areas are in comparison to the middle class areas, as these shanty towns may only comprise 7% of the physical urban land according to yourself, while they will in fact comprise a much higher population count than the 7% suggests due to the density of such settlements.
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Old April 14th, 2009, 11:34 AM   #109
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See above for 800,000 figure (for people near the poverty line), so if you do the math to 7% of land area, yes, they're very dense. Imizama Yethu is the township in Hout Bay and is only 1sq.km... I'm looking at the latest map now. Please go on GoogleEarth and look at the land use ratios citywide.
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Old April 14th, 2009, 12:41 PM   #110
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We have lots of squatters. Perhaps off topic but I dont think we need to be apologizing for the apartheid legacy. I also don't believe in handing out free housing left right and centre.
Cape Town has a housing backlog of 410,000 which requires creative solutions to deal with in the next two decades if not more. Theres also the issue of the masses from the Eastern Cape flocking to the city

While we deal with the housing backlog, people need decent services, water, electricity education, transport and safety. These are priority areas in addition to housing. The intense focus on housing and squatter camps without improving the quality of life just doesn't work.

Having built houses in townships it absolutely devastating viewing the city from a different angle. Its apaling that many of these people have been deprived from basic services for so long while the ANC ran the city.

15 years on, Helen Zille still needs to provide certain areas with toilets and electricity!
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Old April 14th, 2009, 12:52 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by annman View Post
See above for 800,000 figure (for people near the poverty line), so if you do the math to 7% of land area, yes, they're very dense. Imizama Yethu is the township in Hout Bay and is only 1sq.km... I'm looking at the latest map now. Please go on GoogleEarth and look at the land use ratios citywide.
[IMG]http://www.**************/show/2009/04/14/01/47/3255725_807x1126.JPG[/IMG]
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Old April 14th, 2009, 01:11 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo Rush View Post
We have lots of squatters. Perhaps off topic but I dont think we need to be apologizing for the apartheid legacy. I also don't believe in handing out free housing left right and centre
Thanks for the map Mo. I did not realise there were so many scattered all over the show, but there has to have been some improvement as that was based on 2005 statistics. Are there any further stats on the impact of 'backyard' squatters in the already existing townships eg Khayelitsha?

With regards to handing out houses I have to agree with you. I worked with a lady who owned a brick and tile house in Takkastad Eastern Cape, which she happened to be renting out, while she squatted in a tin shack in Imizamo Yethu and placed herself on the housing list in Hout Bay.
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Old April 14th, 2009, 02:12 PM   #113
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Thanks for the map Mo, at least it shows now that we do indeed have a problem with formal housing, as any other city on the continent, but that it's not this massive defining factor in the make up of the entire Cape Town metropole, but is indeed a huge issue the City Council is trying to address.
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Old April 14th, 2009, 04:42 PM   #114
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Back to what most people want out of this section... pictures showcasing said city. Sunset over Cape Town from the northern suburbs...
Taken this last Friday

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Old April 14th, 2009, 05:19 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_kiwi_fruit View Post
Hout Bay is South Western. What would be interesting to know is what the population of these areas are in comparison to the middle class areas, as these shanty towns may only comprise 7% of the physical urban land according to yourself, while they will in fact comprise a much higher population count than the 7% suggests due to the density of such settlements.
[IMG]http://www.**************/show/2009/04/14/06/15/3257959_680x944.JPG[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.**************/show/2009/04/14/06/15/3257965_639x941.JPG[/IMG]
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Old April 14th, 2009, 09:12 PM   #116
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Quote:
Are you serious with such comment? You are actually comparing a huge country with a small city???
Oh yes, I am!..but you needn´t undersatnd it, the thread is not the place to expose my thoughts! It is a Picture Gallery.



ARTIFORT, are you sure that your are French? I have relatives in France and know quite a lot of French people, have lived together with French people....the average educated French seldom display attitudes like yours, especially when it comes to Africa!

Anyway, I respect your opinion but I don´t understand why you talk so badly of such a beautiful city!

Annman is not romanticising about Cape Town, he is showing the various facettes of Cape Town´s quirky and cosmopolitan life which I do not only consider the most beautiful city in Africa but also among the most beautiful in the world!
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Old April 14th, 2009, 09:22 PM   #117
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whydont u guys quit discussing and post somepics?
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Old April 14th, 2009, 11:18 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by l'eau View Post
whydont u guys quit discussing and post somepics?
I did, I did! After I had to defend one of earth's most gorgeous places against the armies from the nether-worlds.

After all the "urbanity," some pics of the winelands surrounding Cape Town...

This pic is indeed, for real! I did not tweak it, the sunset did look that unworldly and eerie. Taken 80km from Cape Town in Rawsonville...


Slanghoek Valley in autumn, also Rawsonville...


Bainskloof Pass, between Wellington and Ceres, about 65km to 85km from Cape Town CBD...


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Old April 14th, 2009, 11:35 PM   #119
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Damn damn damn, Capetown is so beautiful that I am getting angry
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Old April 14th, 2009, 11:48 PM   #120
annman
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How angry? Does Hermanus (90km SE of Cape Town) make you angry?

Come down and visit us again... Dutchmen always welcome!
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