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Old September 15th, 2011, 03:27 AM   #2921
k.k.jetcar
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as far a I know, the concept was developed independently, the Sapporo Transport Bureau and Kawasaki Heavy began a joint effort to develop a rubber tyre system in 1963 (I remember seeing some pictures of a test track in the north of the city, involving a converted bus body), which culminated in the introduction of the "S.S. Tram" around 1970. Hokkaido has a long tradition of independent rail and transport development, in part due to the difference in climate from the rest of Japan, geographic isolation, and the presence of a major research university (Hokkaido Univ.).
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Old September 15th, 2011, 03:32 AM   #2922
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If they are cold weather wouldn't they want to build non-tire metro trains? I mean if they intend to keep the system entirely underground, then I see why they made it rubber tire system.
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Old September 15th, 2011, 05:31 AM   #2923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krnboy1009 View Post
If they are cold weather wouldn't they want to build non-tire metro trains? I mean if they intend to keep the system entirely underground, then I see why they made it rubber tire system.
Yes, that is a commonly voiced opinion. I suppose the novelty of a rubber-tyred system appealed to a city that was slated to host the winter Olympics (the first time to be held in Asia). Also, the railway culture is different in Hokkaido compared with say Tokyo, there was no "kokuden" or electric railways operating in a metro environment- at the time, railways automatically meant JNR, and at that time it (early 60's) was (aside from a couple of small private railways) exclusively steam and diesel. To the general public, electric railways meant the steetcar system, to the extent that even today among older residents, "densha" means the streetcar, not JR trains. Perhaps in the eyes of people then, rail based municipal transport was seen as old, and a rubber-tyred system (just like Paris!)was the future. In hindsight, in view of the growth of the Sapporo suburbs, a rail based system would have been better, requiring less infrastructure on above ground routes and possibly run-through operations, though cooperation among organizations have never been good here.
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Old September 15th, 2011, 05:51 AM   #2924
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Quote:
I've understood that rubber-tyred metros must limit the weight of trains + passengers, otherwise the tyres wouldn't be capable of all the extra weight that Sapporo's fleets seem quite capable of accommodating
Too add, the design of Sapporo subway cars is different AFAIK from Paris Metro- on the first line, Namboku, cars utilize double tyres on each end of the axle, and use a central T guiderail, which may help to distribute weight more. The later Tozai and Toho lines use a simpler guiderail system and single tyres on each axle end, but presumably advances in technology and design produced lighter components and carbodies.
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Old September 15th, 2011, 07:17 PM   #2925
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Enjoy the slow life

A few slow-paced tram videos to pass the time :

Scenes of ex-Tōkyū 5000 series (1st gen.) “Green Frog” trains on the Kumamoto Electric Railway. Also ex-Toei Mita Line trains.


Source: karibajct on YouTube

Day trip to Fukui to ride the Fukui Railway and Echizen Railway:


Source: shuuuji on YouTube

Early morning Tosa Electric Railway scenes at the partial grand union at Harimayabashi, Kōchi City:


Source: shuuuji on YouTube

Racing alongside a Toyohashi Railroad tram in Toyohashi City.


Source: AichiTanken on YouTube

Cab view on the Enoshima Electric Railway from Shōnan Kaigan Kōen to Gokurakuji in Kamakura City. Some great street running along narrow roads and cool views of the Shōnan coastline.


Source: Overdrive809 on YouTube
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Old September 15th, 2011, 10:40 PM   #2926
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krnboy1009 View Post
if they intend to keep the system entirely underground, then I see why they made it rubber tire system.
That's not been their intention ... interior of their elevated segment revealed in the video I shared:
Quote:
Originally Posted by trainrover View Post

Plus here are external views of the elevated station and adjacent elevated section, which urbanrail.net indicates as being the very first leg of the three-line network there:








Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
as far a I know, the concept was developed independently
I ended up suspecting that their traction must've been conceived independently of the French rubber-tyred type -- thank you.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 04:16 PM   #2927
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I am always curious about the fare system used by train operators in Japan. Because there are so many services like express, local, semi-express etc. How is the fare between two stations that are served both by local and let's say express service? Is the fare same or different? Because the express service arrives at the destination station quicker, is the fare higher than the local service?
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Old September 16th, 2011, 04:27 PM   #2928
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ill90 View Post
I am always curious about the fare system used by train operators in Japan. Because there are so many services like express, local, semi-express etc. How is the fare between two stations that are served both by local and let's say express service? Is the fare same or different? Because the express service arrives at the destination station quicker, is the fare higher than the local service?
You'll need to be more specific.
Are you talking about rapid transits or intercity transits?
For rapid transit the fare is the same excluding the special rapid like the Shonan liner or the Odakyu Romance Car which takes an extra fee since all the seats are reserved.
For intercity JR collects a special fee as Tokkyu(Limited express) ticket on top of the distance based ticket price.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 05:29 PM   #2929
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
You'll need to be more specific.
Are you talking about rapid transits or intercity transits?
For rapid transit the fare is the same excluding the special rapid like the Shonan liner or the Odakyu Romance Car which takes an extra fee since all the seats are reserved.
For intercity JR collects a special fee as Tokkyu(Limited express) ticket on top of the distance based ticket price.
Sorry, I forgot to add, I mean for rapid transit and urban transport system. So regardless the service, the fare will always be the same between two stations right?

Is the same fare includes taking different lines though? For example I am in station A and I want to stop in station B. There are two lines that I can choose to get there. The first line has 5 stops between A and B, but the second line only has 3 stops. Will the fare be higher if I take the second line instead of the first line?
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Old September 16th, 2011, 06:44 PM   #2930
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ill90 View Post
Sorry, I forgot to add, I mean for rapid transit and urban transport system. So regardless the service, the fare will always be the same between two stations right?

Is the same fare includes taking different lines though? For example I am in station A and I want to stop in station B. There are two lines that I can choose to get there. The first line has 5 stops between A and B, but the second line only has 3 stops. Will the fare be higher if I take the second line instead of the first line?
Generally, the fare would be the same if the two lines were run by the same operator, but if the two lines are run by different operators they may well end up being different. However, there are some lines that run special limited express trains with reserved seats that charge a premium which complicates things a bit further.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 08:59 PM   #2931
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Not to mention if these services cover differently owned sections of the network.

For example, I take a train that starts out as an express on the Tokyo Metro Fukutoshin line, and it becomes a local on the Tobu Tojo line. I must pay both the fees for both operators, even though the actual train may have been owned by either one of the companies. It's something to be mindful of, especially here in Greater Tokyo.
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Old September 17th, 2011, 08:00 AM   #2932
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AG View Post
Generally, the fare would be the same if the two lines were run by the same operator, but if the two lines are run by different operators they may well end up being different. However, there are some lines that run special limited express trains with reserved seats that charge a premium which complicates things a bit further.
All tickets are based on a distance calculated price so even if you use the same operator the price may vary. For example if you depart Aobadai on the Tokyu Denentoshi line and head for Shibuya.
The Denentoshi line goes straight to Shibuya but you can also change line at Futagotamagawa exchanging to the Oimachi line then again transferring at Jiyugaoka to the Toyoko line and head to Shibuya.
All three lines are operated by Tokyu but I believe the price may differ since the stations for the Denentoshi line and the Toyoko line at Shibuya station does not share gates so the automated ticket gate will detect the changing of lines. (Don't really know in real life situation since I actually haven't tried it)
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Old September 17th, 2011, 09:05 PM   #2933
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I think AG is still correct… He said “generally”, and there will always be exceptions / special cases.

Your example is one of them (¥190 for direct Den’en Toshi Line and ¥210 via the Ōimachi Line / Tōyoko Line route), but even then, that one isn’t due so much to the difference in distance traveled as to the fact that the Shibuya Station for the Den’en Toshi Line (B3F) and the Shibuya Station for the Tōyoko Line (2F) are completely segregated, like you said, making it possible for the fare calculation algorithm to detect which route was taken.

However, most multi-line stations under a single operator are shared faregates (e.g., JR), and there is no way to determine which route was selected. In these cases, you will always be charged the shortest-distance route, regardless of which route you choose. This "loophole" has given rise to the 大回り乗車 trend among railfans in the Tōkyō and Ōsaka areas, who plan 750 km day trips on JR across the entire region for the price of a one-station ride.
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Old September 18th, 2011, 03:57 AM   #2934
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quashlo View Post
This "loophole" has given rise to the 大回り乗車 trend among railfans in the Tōkyō and Ōsaka areas, who plan 750 km day trips on JR across the entire region for the price of a one-station ride.
Doesn't work for Kansai though, as you have to pass Amagasaki twice if you want to do the whole route including the Kakogawa line. I did the Omawari in July, boarded the first train at 5:48 in the morning and got off around 22:45 in the evening.
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Old September 18th, 2011, 06:15 AM   #2935
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Yeah, Amagasaki makes things difficult... However, you can still do some very large 大回り乗車 in the 大阪近郊区間 (Ōsaka Suburban Zone) super cheap, even if they aren't one-station journeys:

Itinerary 1: ¥180, 665.1 km (normally a two-station, 4.7 km journey)
Tsukaguchi → Tanikawa: Fukuchiyama Line
Tanikawa → Kakogawa: Kakogawa Line
Kakogawa → Kyōto: San’yō Main Line / Tōkaidō Main Line
Kyōto → Ōmi Shiotsu: Kosei Line
Ōmi Shiotsu → Kusatsu: Hokuriku Main Line / Tōkaidō Main Line)
Kusatsu → Tsuge: Kusatsu Line
Tsuge → Nara: Kansai Main Line
Nara → Wakayama: Sakurai Line / Wakayama Line
Wakayama → Tennōji: Hanwa Line
Tennōji → Kyōbashi: Ōsaka Loop Line (counterclockwise)
Kyōbashi → Kashima: Tōzai Line

Itinerary 2: ¥400, 737.9 km (normally 22 km)
Tsukaguchi → Tanikawa: Fukuchiyama Line
Tanikawa → Kakogawa: Kakogawa Line
Kakogawa → Amagasaki: San’yō Main Line
Amagasaki → Kizu: Tōzai Line / Gakken Toshi Line (Katamachi Line)
Kizu → Tsuge: Kansai Main Line
Tsuge → Kusatsu: Kusatsu Line
Kusatsu → Ōmi Shiotsu: Tōkaidō Main Line / Hokuriku Main Line
Ōmi Shiotsu → Ōsaka: Kosei Line / Tōkaidō Main Line
Ōsaka → Shin-Imamiya: Ōsaka Loop Line (counterclockwise)
Shin-Imamiya → Nara: Kansai Main Line
Nara → Wakayama: Sakurai Line / Wakayama Line
Wakayama → Bishōen: Hanwa Line

For reference, a Shinkansen trip from Tōkyō to Shin-Ōsaka is only 515.4 km.
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Old September 18th, 2011, 06:48 AM   #2936
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Some of those locations are out of the area of JR West's Kansai Odekake Pass, but not too much. I'd rather get one of those and be more legit than risk this. If the conductor does an inspection you're going to have to pay. And, if you've got a ticket from Tsukaguchi at 5AM and you're at Wakayama in the early evening, and if he's in a bad mood...
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Old September 18th, 2011, 08:58 AM   #2937
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Well, it's not illegal as long as you follow the rules—must be same day, must be entirely within the specially designated zones, cannot pass the same station more than once or go back and forth, etc. This isn't a secret thing, and it's frequently publicized in the media. Most, if not all, conductors / station staff will know of it.
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Old September 18th, 2011, 09:02 AM   #2938
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First Ginza Line 1000 series delivered

Sneak peek at these new units featuring retro yellow paint scheme.
The first of the order was transported from the Nippon Sharyō factory in central Japan to Tōkyō Metro on 2011.09.17.

Passing Kanbara Station on the Tōkaidō Main Line in Shizuoka City:


Source: kaiy130 on YouTube

Some pictures at Toyokawa Station in Aichi Prefecture:
Source: http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/jyunchoru117119313/













Really liking the ends with the cute taillights… Curious what the interior looks like.
These are scheduled to enter revenue service in FY2012.
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Old September 18th, 2011, 10:05 AM   #2939
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quashlo View Post
However, most multi-line stations under a single operator are shared faregates (e.g., JR), and there is no way to determine which route was selected. In these cases, you will always be charged the shortest-distance route, regardless of which route you choose. This "loophole" has given rise to the 大回り乗車 trend among railfans in the Tōkyō and Ōsaka areas, who plan 750 km day trips on JR across the entire region for the price of a one-station ride.
Wow, so it is possible to do a 'loophole' journey in Tokyo and Osaka rail network? Is it illegal? And I wonder if this kind of journey had given JR East and JR West financial trouble in the past?
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Old September 18th, 2011, 11:55 AM   #2940
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I doubt that there are many people that really do it, the only ones I could think about are railway enthusiasts. And a few of these rides/year is just a drop in the ocean compared to all the other "normal" ones...

This idea get me thinking though, must create some insane time table for next time I'm in Tokyo
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