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Old March 23rd, 2010, 04:49 AM   #1061
k.k.jetcar
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I agree there needs to be better access to Haneda, especially as it's role as an international airport begins to take off, but I'm not yet convinced that it needs to be Shinkansen technology.
Agree. I think Shinkansen service would benefit domestic travellers more, especially those going to final destinations not served by the airlines. Shinkansen service would be of little use to arriving international travellers, given the flights would be arriving in the late hours after 10pm, at least for transpacific flights.
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Old March 24th, 2010, 03:20 AM   #1062
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The doors on the anti clockwise track have been installed at Ebisu over the weekend of the 20/21 March. Only the door sides have been installed, no glass doors as yet.
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Old March 24th, 2010, 03:02 PM   #1063
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Tri-ring:
Thanks for the clear up, Google translate isn't ideal to make sensible translations from Japanese
Nice to hear that they are also working on speeding up the whole Tokaido line, it willreally helo the capacity of the line. But I also wonder if this is a bit of a prestige thing with that JR East is going for 320 km/h on the Tohoku line, meaning that the Tokaido/Sanyo line won't have the fastest services in Japan. Could this also trigger JR West to re-evaluate a possible speed up of the Sanyo line?

quashlo:
I see 2 main problems by using Shinkansen technology for a better connection with Haneda, Tokyo Station would have trouble with capacity (especially JR Central planning on adding more trains to the Tokado line) and it also means that you have to go to Tokyo station and change trains to go anywhere, where as a narrow gauge line can have services to several locations in the Tokyo area, much like the NEX.
And Shinkansen train or not doesn't really matter in the case of getting good access with the Shinkansen network, I mean you can get to Shinagawa pretty easy from Haneda with Keikyu and aren't they and Keisei planning on doing a through service between Narita and Haneda which will pass by Tokyo Station?
I can see one problem with the solution that you have in mind (for JR atleast), yes you get good access to the major hubs in the Tokyo area, but you are missing Shinagawa in that plan, might not matter much at the moment, but when the Chuo Shinkansen line opens it's might be a bad idea.
Extending the Tokyo Monorail to Tokyo Station might be a better solution if you want good access with Tokyo station...
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Old March 24th, 2010, 08:34 PM   #1064
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I was wondering, which line does the E233-2000 run on? Also does anyone have some large high quality photos of them to share? Thanks.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 01:04 AM   #1065
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The E233-2000 runs on the Joban Line through services to Tokyo metro's Chiyoda line, they are a special version with narrow bodies to cope with the gauge of the Tokyo metro line.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 05:11 AM   #1066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
Agree. I think Shinkansen service would benefit domestic travellers more, especially those going to final destinations not served by the airlines. Shinkansen service would be of little use to arriving international travellers, given the flights would be arriving in the late hours after 10pm, at least for transpacific flights.
I would think that the Keikyū Airport Line would be sufficient transportation to Haneda. Perhaps increasing capacity would be the thing to do.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 06:43 AM   #1067
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozumi 300 View Post
Also does anyone have some large high quality photos of them to share? Thanks.
There's plenty floating around on the web...

http://www.jobanlocal.com/jobanlocal...233/E233.shtml
http://rail.hobidas.com/blog/natori/.../05/233_6.html
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/E233%E7...95.AA.E5.8F.B0
http://blog.goo.ne.jp/www6days/e/0d4...0dab3899fbec5c
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/specialrapidtrain/7454996.html
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Old March 25th, 2010, 07:14 AM   #1068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loefet View Post
I see 2 main problems by using Shinkansen technology for a better connection with Haneda, Tokyo Station would have trouble with capacity (especially JR Central planning on adding more trains to the Tokado line) and it also means that you have to go to Tokyo station and change trains to go anywhere, where as a narrow gauge line can have services to several locations in the Tokyo area, much like the NEX.
And Shinkansen train or not doesn't really matter in the case of getting good access with the Shinkansen network, I mean you can get to Shinagawa pretty easy from Haneda with Keikyu and aren't they and Keisei planning on doing a through service between Narita and Haneda which will pass by Tokyo Station?
I can see one problem with the solution that you have in mind (for JR atleast), yes you get good access to the major hubs in the Tokyo area, but you are missing Shinagawa in that plan, might not matter much at the moment, but when the Chuo Shinkansen line opens it's might be a bad idea.
Extending the Tokyo Monorail to Tokyo Station might be a better solution if you want good access with Tokyo station...
I think the new Asakusa Line bypass makes more sense than just a Tōkyō Monorail extension to Tōkyō, which doesn't do much for access between Haneda and Narita.

I will say this... I can see a branch off the Tōkaidō Shinkansen to Haneda, but more as a long-term improvement, after they've built the Chūō Shinkansen and move all the Nozomi services over, creating scheduling "wiggle-room" to increase Kodama and Hikari-type services on the Tōkaidō Shinkansen. A branch to Haneda could allow the airport to take advantage of new regional demand from stations all down the Tōkaidō Shinkansen that would then have more frequent service, and perhaps stealing some of the demand that is currently captured by the smaller airports. Airport passengers from the Chūō Shinkansen can still use Keikyū at Shinagawa.

I agree with you and think doing a Haneda branch right now probably wouldn't work, since the line already runs 14-15 tph throughout the day... Just looking at aerials, there doesn't appear to be an easy way to get from Shinagawa to Haneda, as the tracks to the Shinkansen yard pull off just before Shinagawa. Perhaps they could run it as an extension of the Tōhoku Shinkansen instead, bringing some of the trains down past Tōkyō Station to Haneda... Or maybe they can construct some new flyovers after they've consolidated the car yard at Tamachi, allowing northbound Tōkaidō Shinkansen trains to connect to the service track. No idea...
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Old March 25th, 2010, 07:40 AM   #1069
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Originally Posted by manrush View Post
I would think that the Keikyū Airport Line would be sufficient transportation to Haneda. Perhaps increasing capacity would be the thing to do.
Capacity is less of an issue... Both Keikyū and the Tōkyō Monorail have plenty left, and Keikyū should gain even more once they upgrade Kamata Station and double-track that one grade crossing on the Airport Line.

The problem is more connectivity, as there is no direct service to major areas like Shinjuku and Tōkyō Station. You generally have to transfer trains at least once, or take some other mode like Airport bus.
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Old March 26th, 2010, 03:58 AM   #1070
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quashlo View Post
I haven't heard anything about it beyond Minister Maehara's statement in December. I agree there needs to be better access to Haneda, especially as it's role as an international airport begins to take off, but I'm not yet convinced that it needs to be Shinkansen technology. Personally, I like the idea of converting the Tōkaidō Freight Line to passenger traffic and connecting it with the Rinkai Line, as then you could have all of Tōkyō's major terminals connected to the Airport: Shibuya, Shinjuku, and Ikebukuro on the west side via the Rinkai Line / Saikyō Line, and Tōkyō and Ueno via the Tōkaidō Line and Tōhoku Through Line. However, it obviously doesn't do as much as a Shinkansen extension would for trips outside of the region going to / from Haneda via Shinkansen.
I saw in your map this line(Haneda Acess Line). It's a very interesting line since,as you already told, it links the airport directilly with downtown, Shibuya, Shinjuku and Ikebukuro. But is it included in the mid-range plans? And will it include the Tokaido freight line all the way to Sakuragicho?

I've seen it also links to the Tokaido Main Line and Tokyo Teleport in one tip and goes all the way to Yokohama City on the other. Do these parts exist in official plans too?
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Old March 26th, 2010, 05:39 PM   #1071
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dale88 View Post
The E233-2000 runs on the Joban Line through services to Tokyo metro's Chiyoda line, they are a special version with narrow bodies to cope with the gauge of the Tokyo metro line.
On what do you base that statement?
The track gauge of the Chiyoda line and the Joban line are both 1067mm, Japanese "standard" gauge.
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Old March 26th, 2010, 06:54 PM   #1072
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 He is referring to the loading gauge, which is more restricted on the Chiyoda Line. This is why the E233-2000 has narrower straight sides instead of the wider sides + tapered bottom seen on the other E233 types. The E233-2000 also has other unique features like the emergency exits at the train ends that allow it to run in the subway.
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Old March 26th, 2010, 06:55 PM   #1073
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martini87 View Post
I saw in your map this line(Haneda Acess Line). It's a very interesting line since,as you already told, it links the airport directilly with downtown, Shibuya, Shinjuku and Ikebukuro. But is it included in the mid-range plans? And will it include the Tokaido freight line all the way to Sakuragicho?

I've seen it also links to the Tokaido Main Line and Tokyo Teleport in one tip and goes all the way to Yokohama City on the other. Do these parts exist in official plans too?
These lines are actually listed separately in the MLIT plan as the Haneda Access Line (羽田アクセス新線) and the conversion of the Tōkaidō Freight Line to passenger service.

You can see them as dotted green lines in this picture, meaning they have said the line should be studied by 2015.



However, I modified it with a bit of wishful thinking. The Rinkai Line through-service from Tōkyō Teleport is straight from the plans, as is the connection at the other end to Sakuragichō in Yokohama City. However, the MLIT plan calls for a connection at Shinagawa, but I wasn't exactly sure how this would work without extensive tunneling, since the Tōkaidō Freight Line branches off before that. Also, there is already a direct connection to Haneda at Shinagawa via Keikyū, so this is a bit of duplication perhaps. So instead, I took it off after Tamachi, and said they would build new platforms there for this line.

I also added another fork from the west end of the Rinkai Line, which isn't anywhere in the plans, but only makes sense if you want to connect Shibuya, Shinjuku, and Ikebukuro.
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Old March 27th, 2010, 05:49 AM   #1074
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quashlo View Post
These lines are actually listed separately in the MLIT plan as the Haneda Access Line (羽田アクセス新線) and the conversion of the Tōkaidō Freight Line to passenger service.

You can see them as dotted green lines in this picture, meaning they have said the line should be studied by 2015.



However, I modified it with a bit of wishful thinking. The Rinkai Line through-service from Tōkyō Teleport is straight from the plans, as is the connection at the other end to Sakuragichō in Yokohama City. However, the MLIT plan calls for a connection at Shinagawa, but I wasn't exactly sure how this would work without extensive tunneling, since the Tōkaidō Freight Line branches off before that. Also, there is already a direct connection to Haneda at Shinagawa via Keikyū, so this is a bit of duplication perhaps. So instead, I took it off after Tamachi, and said they would build new platforms there for this line.

I also added another fork from the west end of the Rinkai Line, which isn't anywhere in the plans, but only makes sense if you want to connect Shibuya, Shinjuku, and Ikebukuro.
Does that mean that Rinkai could feasibly be integrated into the Tokyo subway system?

On another note: I was always curious about the JR Hokkaido trains. Are they built the way they are so that they can operate in Hokkaido's climate?
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Old March 27th, 2010, 10:19 PM   #1075
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Thanks, quashlo! Interesting to see in this map how Metro 7 and Eight Liner look like a smaller version of Musashino-sen.

Although not in the official plans, I do think it would be fantastic to link Haneda via Rinkai Line and Saikyo Line to Shibuya, Shinjuku and Ikebukuro. By the way, it's impressive to see the effort made by different transportation companies to coordinate schedules, rolling stock and fare structure, making everybody's lives easier.

Last edited by Martini87; March 29th, 2010 at 03:45 AM.
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Old March 28th, 2010, 03:22 AM   #1076
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On a different note from the current conversation, what's currently happening with the Narita Express service changes: how many E259 series trains are in service now, and what actually changed in the new timetables (service frequencies, destinations, etc.) on March 13 other than Musashi Kosugi opening?

Another thing, how often does the Narita Express actually run further down the Tokaido Line than Ofuna? I know it is meant to go to Odawara from time to time but have never heard or seen it.
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Old March 28th, 2010, 09:37 AM   #1077
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Does that mean that Rinkai could feasibly be integrated into the Tokyo subway system?
Not really sure what you mean here... If you are talking about integrating the line with the Tōkyō Metro and / or Toei Subway networks, I don't think that will happen anytime soon. Although the Tōkyō Metropolitan Government owns around 90% of the shares in Tōkyō Waterfront Area Rapid Transit (the Rinkai Line operator), the line's fare is artificially higher than older lines in order to pay back the debt amassed during construction of the line. I doubt the line will be going anywhere until it has completely paid for itself.

If any of the railway operators want it, it might be JR. The line is already physically connected at both ends to JR lines (at Ōsaki to the Saikyō Line and at Shin-Kiba to the Keiyō Line), but they are reluctant to do any through-service at the Shin-Kiba end because the fare structure between the Rinkai Line and JR is so different. Since the line is sandwiched in between two JR lines, they would have no way of knowing which route passengers take on JR-JR trips (e.g., Kaihin Makuhari to Shinjuku) and there is the possibility of fare revenue not getting assessed / distributed properly. But until the line pays itself off, they won't want to purchase it.
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Old March 28th, 2010, 09:38 AM   #1078
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By the way, it's impressive to see the effort mada by different transportation companies to coordinate schedules, rolling stock and fare structure, making everybody's lives easier.
Yes, 直通運転 (through-service) is definitely a fascinating topic. It's not perfect, mostly when it comes to fare structure as you usually don't get a discount over if you just took the trains separately and transferred in the middle, but otherwise, it's an extremely convenient and successful concept.
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Old March 28th, 2010, 09:40 AM   #1079
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On a different note from the current conversation, what's currently happening with the Narita Express service changes: how many E259 series trains are in service now, and what actually changed in the new timetables (service frequencies, destinations, etc.) on March 13 other than Musashi Kosugi opening?
Don't know how many are in service now, but the total fleet of E259 series is supposed to be 22 trains (132 cars total) and complete replacement of all 253 series is supposed to happen by June, so they're probably about 2/3 of the way there.

For the Narita Express, the March 13 changes added a new stop at Musashi Kosugi Station and added around 10 or so total roundtrips so that the frequency on the Shinjuku and Yokohama branches is now a N'EX train every 30 minutes. Also, all trains now stop at Shinagawa and all trains on the Shinjuku and Chūō Line branches now stop at Shibuya (before, only some of the trains stopped at these stations).

Quote:
Another thing, how often does the Narita Express actually run further down the Tokaido Line than Ofuna? I know it is meant to go to Odawara from time to time but have never heard or seen it.
Actually, Ōfuna is the extent of the direct service. None of the N'EX trains go beyond that, although you may see them (out of service) a little further down the line because the trains are stored at Kamakura Car Center, immediately abutting the Tōkaidō Line between Ōfuna and Fujisawa.
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Old March 28th, 2010, 08:38 PM   #1080
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Well ridership on the Rinkai line is still increasing. Daily ridership for the 6 months to Sep 2009 was 204,900 per day (TWR), a 1.5% increase despite the GFC. It was only a few years back that the line was heavily criticized and barely doing 120,000 per day.

There would be real benefits for commuters if Rinkai line can have through service with JR Keiyo line. One of the main draws for Rinkai line is its direct connection between Omiya and Daiba. Imagine if they could add Disneyland or Chiba to that list I can understand if JR might be reluctant however.
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