History of Chennai

[Arasu]

Originally Posted by Fusionist

But anyways, back to the Parangi issue, since you chose to discuss, are you claiming Portuguese invaders and Christianity was indiginous ot Inda. Please elaborate to me please, with reasoning.

By strongly coupling the terms 'Portuguese', 'invaders', and 'Christianity' together tightly, you made it clear that you didn't want any discussion on this topic. Did you?

In any case, with strong historical records maintained by the Jewish people and the Romans around the life and history of Jesus, it would be difficult for anybody else to appropriate the religion as belonging to another region or ethnic group.

However, what I would like to point out is that the epithets 'invaders' may be applicable not only to the Portuguese and the Britishers but also to all the major ethnic groups extent in India as any major movement of people or control of regions appear to be a case of an invasion but not a peaceful movement in the annals of history. Some of them may have been recorded if they were of relatively recent origin and some of them may not have been recorded especially if they happened in the hoary past. But obviously they were invasions.

So the question of 'invaders' depend on when and where you want to draw the line. It makes me laugh when Americans say that they fought for and gained independence from the Britishers. If one day, the native Indians were somehow able to reclaim their independence from the rest of the population, I wonder how they would write their history.

As regards the question whether Christianity is indigenous or not, obviously it is not indigenous. The question is also whether one should be looking into the geographical origin of a religion for anyone to practise it or not. Billions of people practise Christianity and Islam all over the world despite their origin in a small region in the mid-east. Even the 'invaders' or 'Colonizers' didn't have any qualms in adopting the religion of the colonised (Christianity) for the Roman empire and spreading it to regions outside its place of birth. So I think it should be left to the individual concerned to follow the relgion of his preference irrespective of its origin.

The same appears to be the case with the Hindu religion. The gods of the Tamil country 2000 years back is not the same gods of today. Nobody is pondering about their god's origin as long the religion and the gods can provide solace or salvation for them. If anybody did, it would appear that god didn't create human beings but humans created gods.

[Fusionist]

Originally Posted by Arasu

By strongly coupling the terms 'Portuguese', 'invaders', and 'Christianity' together tightly, you made it clear that you didn't want any discussion on this topic. Did you?

That is because you seem to be coupling the concept of adopted words such as 'Parangi' as indiginous, thereby indirectly giving an illusion that since Parangi is Tamil, Portuguese & Christianity as an indiginous as Hinduism etc. I detected a strong sense of sarcasm in your tone, hence my point blank question. Maybe I was mistaken.

In any case, with strong historical records maintained by the Jewish people and the Romans around the life and history of Jesus, it would be difficult for anybody else to appropriate the religion as belonging to another region or ethnic group.

However, what I would like to point out is that the epithets 'invaders' may be applicable not only to the Portuguese and the Britishers but also to all the major ethnic groups extent in India as any major movement of people or control of regions appear to be a case of an invasion but not a peaceful movement in the annals of history. Some of them may have been recorded if they were of relatively recent origin and some of them may not have been recorded especially if they happened in the hoary past. But obviously they were invasions.

Well lets not get too intellectual and get stuch with pedantics. Portugugal & Britain are different countries. So what they did was occupation. Thy too kaway a lot of wealth away from the sub-continent, and also spread negative publicity about the lcaol culture and traditions. Inshort they saw themselves as foreigners in India and never acclimatised. Hence they simly are invaders.

Nayaks, Nawabs etc are migrants. Both are different. They invested in the land and form part of its culture even though they might have won battles by the sword over previous rulers. They never saw themselves as foreigners, and showed inclination to settle down. In short they saw themselves as locals. So irrespective of their origins they need to be seen as locals.

So the question of 'invaders' depend on when and where you want to draw the line. It makes me laugh when Americans say that they fought for and gained independence from the Britishers. If one day, the native Indians were somehow able to reclaim their independence from the rest of the population, I wonder how they would write their history.

I don't understand the parallel you are trying to draw here. Are you trying to tel lthat some Indians are more 'native' than other Indians by this ?

As regards the question whether Christianity is indigenous or not, obviously it is not indigenous. The question is also whether one should be looking into the geographical origin of a religion for anyone to practise it or not.

I never questioned the right of anyone from practising any religion.

Billions of people practise Christianity and Islam all over the world despite their origin in a small region in the mid-east. Even the 'invaders' or 'Colonizers' didn't have any qualms in adopting the religion of the colonised (Christianity) for the Roman empire and spreading it to regions outside its place of birth. So I think it should be left to the individual concerned to follow the relgion of his preference irrespective of its origin.

Billions of people world over were prosyletised by these two religions, so yes it is a 'world religion' now. But is this good ? The most distruction to indiginous culture occured when these two religions 'spread' thier wings.

Yes it is up to the individual to practice whatever religion he/she wants to practice, why are you repeating it again and again, as if trying to portray I am against that ? I never questioned individual rights. But then again every individual has the right to understand history, histoery of religions and the politics involved with it. It cannot be hidden or manipulated to create a feel good factor.

The same appears to be the case with the Hindu religion. The gods of the Tamil country 2000 years back is not the same gods of today. Nobody is pondering about their god's origin as long the religion and the gods can provide solace or salvation for them. If anybody did, it would appear that god didn't create human beings but humans created gods.

Hinduism itself is a process of cultural evolution, a gradual change in circumstances, an accumulation of traditions and bliefs put together. It is not a 'religion' as the Westerners understood. So the adoptation of Gods is more of a cultural process. It is only natural. Like you said the changes occured over thousands of years. Not abrupt invasion, so I don't see much parallel. Hinduism in general ( except for few occasions ) has never curtailed anyone or foced anyone to convert. It simply acumulated and possibly amalgamated Gods and Goddeses, thereby creating a plethora of Gods. In short it tried its best to be inclusive without being intrusive of other religions.

[barrykul]

It makes me laugh when Americans say that they fought for and gained independence from the Britishers. If one day, the native Indians were somehow able to reclaim their independence from the rest of the population, I wonder how they would write their history.

I am not nitpicking your intent in this observation but merely pointing out some facts. Yes, the Red Indians of America were decimated by the advancing Americans. Prior to this they were decimated by the Spaniards who conquered most of South America. In California the Spaniards set up a string of Jesuit Convents which are still preserved today. The Indians were forced to convert or face death by the Jesuit Priests. To be fair, the Americans have set aside vast land reservations for the Indians and in California quite recently they were allowed to operated Casinos and earn money. Despite this, they do face an enormous burden on their conscience, since the decimation effectively wiped out vast Indian colonies.

The Red Indians were migrants from China/Mongolia region many centuries ago.

[MA Eswaran]

Another interesting phenemenon is christianity which is being propagated by any means, using poverty mitigation, high lighting existing caste differences, adapting social activities by providing free education.medical help or even by some superstitious methods of eradicating diseases etc in third world countries is being gradually decimated in western/US countries.

By the latest report in the past 20 years, about 10% of catholics have disowned their religion and declared themselves as non religious in US.

In one region, it is growing and in other region it is falling

[kannan infratech]

Fusi,

Please research into DMI (keepers of St Thomas Mount premises) history to know more about the Mount issue. (You seem to google and get the info fast)

I checked up with my grandma (who is no more now) earlier about the ancient Chennai. She said that Chenna Kesava Perumal Temple in North Madras was the main area. Mylapore, Saidapet were the other developed villages. My great grandfather was ridiculed for buying property in Mylapore (near Music Academy) by his relatives since it was so far from the Chenna Kesava Perumal Temple and it was a jungle area.

My maternal great grand father was working as the steno to the then Governor of Carnatic Presidency. There were lots of docs / paper clippings in his old house which were destroyed by my grand parents. Some might have survived. I will go through them in one of my free days.

From what I heard the British used the differences among the local Kings and the public (mostly Hindus) effectively. My Great grand father resigned his job against the Governor's diktat on some similar issues.

I was told that the Portugese were effectively stopped from expanding more in Tamil Nadu by the wily British and they used the local differences of the populace to the hilt.

[MA Eswaran]

In general if we check into the premises of temple/church/mosque to know the histrory of that town/locality, it will portray the glory of related events suitable to them

For eg, TN history will say Pallvas are great & defeated chalukyas and Karanataka histrory will say chalukyas are great & defeated pallavas

[ranga]

Originally Posted by MA Eswaran

In general if we check into the premises of temple/church/mosque to know the histrory of that town/locality, it will portray the glory of related events suitable to them

For eg, TN history will say Pallvas are great & defeated chalukyas and Karanataka histrory will say chalukyas are great & defeated pallavas

After the decline of major Hindu empires many small kingdoms sprouted and constantly waged war among themselves.Therefore the invaders could easily conquer and rule bringing forth their customs and practices.Past is past.India perforce has become a secular country to accomodate all religions and cultures.

[Fusionist]

Originally Posted by MA Eswaran

In general if we check into the premises of temple/church/mosque to know the histrory of that town/locality, it will portray the glory of related events suitable to them

For eg, TN history will say Pallvas are great & defeated chalukyas and Karanataka histrory will say chalukyas are great & defeated pallavas

I think it will be more beneficial, like Kannan says to dig up East India Company records, Madras Presidency records. They themselves are witnesses to the brutalities they committed. Same way Portuguese historians from 16th century themselves have recorded destroying temples, while Indians who are denying it.

Sameway if you look into the beleif around the Corromandal coast that a lot of temples existed beyond the shores of Mahabalipuram, Poompuhar etc ( story of seven temples destroyed ) there IS some truth to it.

While the present day people think the myth is about temples getting lost IN the sea, it is possibly the remebereces of the locals about the temples that were destroyed ALONG the sea.

Because if you look at the topography, there is absolutely no place for temples in the seas, as the waters are deep. But the shores of San Thome, Sadras, Marakanam, Pondichery, Nagapattinam, Porto Novo etc were witnesses to temple destruction, and possibly this is what the people remembers. However over the time history was forced to change as India had new Masters and history became myth, and the poeple would have been scared and blamed it on nature, and then the lucid mind of the locals made it think that is was many thousands of years ago. So now the memory of our ancestors seem stupid, while I think with some careful study it is partly true.

If we dig up around San Thome fort, Sadras Fort, Parangipettai, Velankanni area, Pondicherry etc I am sure the archeologiest will strike gold very soon.

[ramvaradan]

Originally Posted by barrykul

I am not nitpicking your intent in this observation but merely pointing out some facts. Yes, the Red Indians of America were decimated by the advancing Americans. Prior to this they were decimated by the Spaniards who conquered most of South America. In California the Spaniards set up a string of Jesuit Convents which are still preserved today. The Indians were forced to convert or face death by the Jesuit Priests. To be fair, the Americans have set aside vast land reservations for the Indians and in California quite recently they were allowed to operated Casinos and earn money. Despite this, they do face an enormous burden on their conscience, since the decimation effectively wiped out vast Indian colonies.

The Red Indians were migrants from China/Mongolia region many centuries ago.

The controversies surrounding the definition of how long back is native enough and how recent is deemed foreign have really been done to death. But I will have my share. Yes, the Mongolians came via Alaska centuries or maybe millenia back.. but Whites came just a handful of centuries back. The relativity of nativity aside, there is no record of aborigines decimating any pre-aborigines. It is a well documented fact, that the aborigines were decimated by the awful greed and offense of the Whites (whether they're French/English/Spaniards). Maybe it pricks the 20th century fair American conscience and they're doing some reparations but nevertheless there can be no serious ammends. You cannot put to trial what happened in a barbarians' era in the legal court of gentlemen. But, at the heart, Americans are still non-repentant of what they did ... nobody is paying homage really!! Americans were racially deeply divided until very recently. They had segregated restaurants, restrooms, transportation until unimaginably late in the civilized era. Such kind of ostentatious display of hatred against fellow-kinds was not seen even in our caste-ridden India. Maybe we did'nt fly shuttles to Moon, but we're pretty advanced in adapting to the new fairness era.. I had a chit-chat with my Father who is 69 yr old. His description of 1940-s classroom (in a non-descript Tanjore Dt. village) and the social strata of his friends, is chilling really. It was not perfect, but far better than the superpower's advanced 'conscientious' rationale.

[dis.agree]

Originally Posted by Fusionist

While the present day people think the myth is about temples getting lost IN the sea, it is possibly the remebereces of the locals about the temples that were destroyed ALONG the sea.

Because if you look at the topography, there is absolutely no place for temples in the seas, as the waters are deep. But the shores of San Thome, Sadras, Marakanam, Pondichery, Nagapattinam, Porto Novo etc were witnesses to temple destruction, and possibly this is what the people remembers. However over the time history was forced to change as India had new Masters and history became myth, and the poeple would have been scared and blamed it on nature, and then the lucid mind of the locals made it think that is was many thousands of years ago. So now the memory of our ancestors seem stupid, while I think with some careful study it is partly true.

If we dig up around San Thome fort, Sadras Fort, Parangipettai, Velankanni area, Pondicherry etc I am sure the archeologiest will strike gold very soon.

i do not agree to that. shorelines and topography do change with time. and when we are talking about many many centuries, they certainly could be different because of natural changes as well as man made. a good example would be shore north of chennai that apparently receded by 500m in just 100 years.

shore temple itself is so close to the sea and could very well have been history after recent tsunami if it were not protected.

[barrykul]

here is no record of aborigines decimating any pre-aborigines.

Again your observation is not true. There are countless episodes of wipe out of human kind by opposing/invading forces. Genghis Khan of Mongolia/Central Asia went on rampages obliterating villages and settlements. In Central America the Mayan Culture has documented blood rituals and other gory episodes. Close to home, the Muslim raiders were involved in numerous pogroms of the most gruesome kind. When it comes to violence and show of force I guess there are no shades of varying degree, they all end up in killing orgies.

[ramvaradan]

Originally Posted by barrykul

Again your observation is not true. There are countless episodes of wipe out of human kind by opposing/invading forces. Genghis Khan of Mongolia/Central Asia went on rampages obliterating villages and settlements. In Central America the Mayan Culture has documented blood rituals and other gory episodes. Close to home, the Muslim raiders were involved in numerous pogroms of the most gruesome kind. When it comes to violence and show of force I guess there are no shades of varying degree, they all end up in killing orgies.

"Yes, the Mongolians came via Alaska centuries or maybe millenia back.. but Whites came just a handful of centuries back. The relativity of nativity aside, there is no record of aborigines decimating any pre-aborigines."

My statement was with respect to 'aboriginal red indians' .. I said there is no record of 'them killing any pre-aborigines (for the lack of a better term)' when they arrived. You seemed to be indicating (I paraphrase) as if its a cycle and so it was Red Indians' turn to get decimated by Whites.

You cannot question the nomadic nature of the species but you can analyse (if not judge) the conscience of the killing. It can be proven that humankind did posses a 'conscience' and lived without a killing spree. Barbarians prevailed even when Buddha preached.

[Arasu]

Originally Posted by MA Eswaran

Another interesting phenemenon is christianity which is being propagated by any means, using poverty mitigation, high lighting existing caste differences, adapting social activities by providing free education.medical help or even by some superstitious methods of eradicating diseases etc in third world countries is being gradually decimated in western/US countries.

By the latest report in the past 20 years, about 10% of catholics have disowned their religion and declared themselves as non religious in US.

In one region, it is growing and in other region it is falling

As long as they don't force conversions and do something positive such as you have mentioned i.e poverty alleviation, social development activities, free education or medical help, it should be welcome.

This could lead to the development of a vast section of the underprivileged sections of the society which the rest of the society doesn't bother about except for heaping insults sometimes or treating them as less than humans or committing large scale violence against them occassionally. I should admit this scenario has changed lately. As long as this section of the society (it forms more than half of the population) is not developed, India is not going to be an economic or military super power.

It could be even better if the relgion they already belong to treats them better by undertaking some activities to ameliorate their situation so they feel better within their existing fold instead of being forced to move to a totally different religon and feel being further alienated while adopting new names, and adhering to new customs and philosophies.

[Fusionist]

Originally Posted by dis.agree

i do not agree to that. shorelines and topography do change with time. and when we are talking about many many centuries, they certainly could be different because of natural changes as well as man made. a good example would be shore north of chennai that apparently receded by 500m in just 100 years.

Well, it is up to you to agree or not, but um, wrong information based on false beliefs.

What probably happened in north Chennai, if anything is the shifting of shoreline because of the dredging work for harbour etc. It is a man made thing. Apart from that the shoreline has been very stable for thousands of years. It is a well proven fact. I dont think it needs further elaboration.

[kannan infratech]

Originally Posted by Arasu

As long as they don't force conversions and do something positive such as you have mentioned i.e poverty alleviation, social development activities, free education or medical help, it should be welcome.

.

The contribution of Christian Missioneries towards starting schools in India is of course commendable. The local governments and Other religious sects ignored this completely.

But teaching distorted history and mixing religious conversion for providing the service robs the exhalted position.

Hindusim allows all sorts of self reviews and criticisms and all of them are well documented also. I wonder why the famous atheist parties of Tamil Nadu dont quote these. The debates throw more light on the respective topics and give the pluses and minuses on a platter.

[ranga]

Originally Posted by kannan infratech

The contribution of Christian Missioneries towards starting schools in India is of course commendable. The local governments and Other religious sects ignored this completely.

But teaching distorted history and mixing religious conversion for providing the service robs the exhalted position.

Hindusim allows all sorts of self reviews and criticisms and all of them are well documented also. I wonder why the famous atheist parties of Tamil Nadu dont quote these. The debates throw more light on the respective topics and give the pluses and minuses on a platter.

Its inexplicable that in a state with thousands of temples (Mostly intact) and people generally sporting religious marks on their foreheads that the majority of the elected legislators pose as an atheist.Are they truly atheist are just pretend as an atheist.May be they would have been theist had the Hindus were only other castes sans brahmins.

[dis.agree]

Originally Posted by Fusionist

Well, it is up to you to agree or not, but um, wrong information based on false beliefs.

What probably happened in north Chennai, if anything is the shifting of shoreline because of the dredging work for harbour etc. It is a man made thing. Apart from that the shoreline has been very stable for thousands of years. It is a well proven fact. I dont think it needs further elaboration.

yes, that is my understanding as well - that beaches around chennai were created/destroyed because of port related activities. i have mentioned it one of earlier posts as well. based on what i read, i also agree that mean sea levels have been relatively stable for last 2000 years. however, that does not mean that shore lines have remained the same. so, i don't know what part was wrong information & based on false belief.

infact one of ways we could determine if shore lines were different in recent times is if man made structures exist beneath the sea. this is what researchers have been studying about poompuhar as well as mahabalipuram to determine if such structures exists beneath sea of present day shorelines. if they are right, we could conclude that such shorelines indeed have changed in the past 2000 years.

however, you have stated that remaining 6 temples could not have been built seawards of shore temple because sea exists right next to shore temple in present day. and you go on to suggest that it was likely destroyed in the last 300 years by colonial powers and they even succeeded in getting locals believe it was not destroyed by them but by nature a thousands of years ago. this is preposterous.

[Fusionist]

Originally Posted by dis.agree

however, you have stated that remaining 6 temples could not have been built seawards of shore temple because sea exists right next to shore temple in present day. and you go on to suggest that it was likely destroyed in the last 300 years by colonial powers and they even succeeded in getting locals believe it was not destroyed by them but by nature a thousands of years ago. this is preposterous.

I don't think 6 temples. I would think 6 big temples,and SEVERAL small temples.

Colonialists have suceeded in making people believe that Aryans invaded Dravidians and Dravidians were a different race, Colonislits suceeded in making people believe that cast structure was rigid and there was caste discrimination for thousands of years. Colonialists suceeded in making people believe that 'thuggies' were killers for thousands of years and simply exterminated the community, Colonialists suceeded in making people beleive that there was a unique race of Aryans and that Sinhalese was closer to Icelandic than Tamil. Colonialists suceeded in making people beleive that some Indians were hereditory criminals, based on thier nose shape, and put 60 million Indians ( about 15% of the population ) in forced labour camps and tortured them physically and emotionally and then converted many to Christianity. Colonialists suceeded in making many Hindus beleive that thier religion was bad and converted millions of people, who still think St Thomas lived in Chennai. Sadly most Indians dont even know all these.

Colonialists suceeded in suppressing that there was a racially segregated town in Chennai called a Black Town and a White Town ( like in aparthier South Africa ). Colonialiasts suceeded in making people believe that Madras was created 300 years ago

Basically we are all on Colonial cack and in dreamy land dreaming of mythical temples in the ocean and lost continents. The Colonialists probably were laughing thier way by robbing wealth and making able slaves out of these dopey dreamy Indians as the wealth made its way across the oceans to Europe. Please get over it. Wake up to reality.

Simple fact, Portuguese Church and forts were built on top of temples after destroying the communites that resisted ( especially the brave fishing/sea warriors ). The rest of the fishing community were put under so much pressure prabably facing death that they swallowed their pride and converted. Onbviously this would have lead to a backlash form the rest of the Hindu community who would have disagreed with this conversion. Hence the origins of caste violence, religious violence. Sadly a few generations after that their ancestors are trying to validate the conversion as they now faced the hostility of other communities that were not converted, and hence have prevented any real research into temple distruction or Colonial era history.

Sadly since Christians had control of education several false theories justifying Colonial influences by 'marrying' local customs & Tamil names with Christianity, thereby giving the converted people some 'historic' legitimacy was created. It helped serve some purpose possibly during the Colonial era. But why not ? People of all communites should feel safe enough to do a more realistic study into Colonial era history.

If you check out Portuguese records themselves, they clearly document temple destruction all along the Tamil Nadu coast from Mylapore to Nagapattinam.

For example here is an article about Hindu temple destruction by the very same Portuguese in Sri Lanka at the same time, sadly the events in Tamil Nadu has been deliberately suppressed by some vested interests through the education system, propoganda and other means.

The Portuguese wantonly destroyed over 600 Hindu Temples in Jaffna peninsula alone and introduced many other measures against the Hindus.

For example Thirukonamalai Koneswaram Temple was destroyed by the Portuguese and the Temple stones were used to build the fort Frederic in Trincomalee. The magnitude of the fort alone tells us how big the Temple might have been.

The Portuguese drew the painting and map of the Thirukoneswarm Temple before destroying it and that map and painting is still in Lisbon Museum for everyone to see.

In an effort to conquer and rule a nation, the invaders kill the leaders of the conquered people and destroy their places of worship. Four hundred years ago, no nation in the world opposed this practice. However, history suggests that the Tamils have preserved their heritage through many generations and have rebuilt that which was destroyed. Thirukoneswaram, rebuilt in 1963, is an excellent example and illustrates the resilience exhibited by our forefathers.

By 1624, the Portuguese destroyed many ancient temples in Eelam. Berndi Kovil, near Avissavela, in 1552, Muneswaram near Chillaw, in 1575, the Vishnu temple at Dondra, in 1588, Thirukatheeswaram, in 1589, and Nallur Kandasamy Kovil, in 1621, were destroyed. But the Portuguese showed utmost indifference to Thirukoneswaram temple in Trincomalee (Thirukonamalai), until 1622. In 1622, Constantine de Sa de Menzes was alarmed at the possibility of rivals taking possession of the port in Trincomalee. He ruthlessly demolished the ancient temple of Thirukoneswaram, desirous of amassing its wealth as booty, and to use the rubble to fortify the Trincomalee harbor.

It was New Years day of 1624 in Thirukoneswaram. The temple had one thousand pillars and, at that time, esteemed to be one of the richest temples in Southeast Asia. It had in its possession large amounts of gold, pearls, precious stones, and silk, which has been endowed over one thousand years.

Its origins are steeped in antiquity. Thirukonamalai is mentioned in ancient Hindu chronicles of Dekshana Kailasa Puranam, Ramayanam, Kanda Puranam. Accurate timing of these events has not been established. However, these chronicles appear to narrate events that took place approximately four to five thousand years before the birth of Christ.

The local tradition narrates in minute detail, the tragic events that took place on the New Years day of 1624, which led to the destruction of Thirukoneswaram temple. In the morning, the temple was decorated and well lit with eleven oil lamps for the New Year`s worship and pooja observances. After the pooja, the customary festival procession proceeded out to the town with a crowd of worshippers.

At this time, Portuguese emissaries and soldiers gained entrance into the temple disguised as Hindu priests. They overpowered the few temple priests and workers who remained in the temple and looted the temple. All the possessions, treasured over a thousand years were carried away.

In the confusion, the few devotees, who escaped, carried away temple belongings they were able to take. These were the articles that were unearthed several years after in 1950 and now form part of the newly built Thirukoneswaram temple. The deities taken in procession were beyond the reach of the vandals and were placed in safety at other temples.

Towards the evening, Portuguese Commander Constantine de Sa delivered an ultimatum to the temple priest. It said that everything valuable in the temple should be surrendered to him at dawn of the following day as he will fire cannons from the ship at the Trincomalee sea and blast the temple down. The priest spent a night in misery. As usual, early in the morning, the temple attendant (pandaram) arrived by boat from Kottiyaram, bringing with him flowers, milk, and ghee for the days puja ceremonies. The priest confided in the Pandaram about the ultimatum. Together, they hatched a plan to save the bronze statues of Konanayakar and Ambal Devi. They left the stone Siva Lingam inside the temple. The Pandaram took these statues and a few remaining pooja utensils (as they were the articles demanded by Portuguese) to Thambalakamam lake for safety.

In the morning, the ultimatum expired and the Thirukoneswaram temple, worshipped by more than five hundred generations was blasted to destruction. The hill on which the temple stood was called Swami Malai. There was no worship at Thirukonamalai for nearly 180 years, until 1803, and no temple for 377 years, until 1963.


http://www.lankanewspapers.com/news/...090_space.html

[Fusionist]

Here is a decent book that talks of temples in Chennai region. There is an elaborate chapter on Kapaleeswarar Temple and Mylapore.

Also mentions of Chenna Perumal Koil that was destroyed by the British in George Town.

'Diaspora of the gods' By Joanne Punzo Waghorne, Oxford University Press

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Q...m=10&ct=result

[Arasu]

Originally Posted by Fusionist

I don't think 6 temples. I would think 6 big temples,and SEVERAL small temples.

Colonialists have suceeded in making people believe that Aryans invaded Dravidians and Dravidians were a different race, Colonislits suceeded in making people believe that cast structure was rigid and there was caste discrimination for thousands of years. Colonialists suceeded in making people believe that 'thuggies' were killers for thousands of years and simply exterminated the community, Colonialists suceeded in making people beleive that there was a unique race of Aryans and that Sinhalese was closer to Icelandic than Tamil. Colonialists suceeded in making people beleive that some Indians were hereditory criminals, based on thier nose shape, and put 60 million Indians ( about 15% of the population ) in forced labour camps and tortured them physically and emotionally and then converted many to Christianity. Colonialists suceeded in making many Hindus beleive that thier religion was bad and converted millions of people, who still think St Thomas lived in Chennai. Sadly most Indians dont even know all these.

Colonialists suceeded in suppressing that there was a racially segregated town in Chennai called a Black Town and a White Town ( like in aparthier South Africa ). Colonialiasts suceeded in making people believe that Madras was created 300 years ago .

Though I agree with you that colonialists perpetrated atrocities on the locals, I am surprised that you don't ever say anything about the present problems of a large section of the oppressed Indians who continue to face everyday struggles but you continue to harp on the evils of the colonial past. What is the point of pointing out one black town in Madras hundred years back, when there are ghetto like untouchable slums in every village, town and city in Tamilnadu if not the whole of India? We should be ashamed of ourselves for letting such a situation prevail in this country even after 60 years of independence and letting it linger for another century into the future rather than rueing about what happened hundreds of years ago at the hands of invaders and colonialists.

Originally Posted by Fusionist

Basically we are all on Colonial cack and in dreamy land dreaming of mythical temples in the ocean and lost continents. The Colonialists probably were laughing thier way by robbing wealth and making able slaves out of these dopey dreamy Indians as the wealth made its way across the oceans to Europe. Please get over it. Wake up to reality.

Simple fact, Portuguese Church and forts were built on top of temples after destroying the communites that resisted ( especially the brave fishing/sea warriors ). The rest of the fishing community were put under so much pressure prabably facing death that they swallowed their pride and converted. Onbviously this would have lead to a backlash form the rest of the Hindu community who would have disagreed with this conversion. Hence the origins of caste violence, religious violence. Sadly a few generations after that their ancestors are trying to validate the conversion as they now faced the hostility of other communities that were not converted, and hence have prevented any real research into temple distruction or Colonial era history.

Portuguese and the Britishers were, as you say, Colonisers. They didn't invade this country for carrying out charity. They came here to get what they can and they did. What is the point of harping on this? What one should be worried more about is the inhuman treatment of a human being by a fellow citizens. Why not highlight this condition and do something to bring about a change? When you don't seem to care about this pathetic condition of the people and the ghettos in nooks and corners of this country in present day India, your objection to creation of a black town a couple of hundred years ago in Madras does indeed ring very hollow.

As I had pointed out earlier, casteism is as old as this country as recorded in Vedas and puranas. To give a later example, 12th century 'Periyapuranam' by Sekkizhar illustrates casteism during those period. Nandanar, of paraiyar community is done to death by fire for desiring to enter Chidambaram temple. That he joined Shiva in his eternal abode later is humbug. This literature was not written by colonialists.

Similarly, it is only due to the threat of violence and death that people converted is a false propaganda. Even as erudite a man as Dr.Ambedkar converted to Buddhism with thousands of his followers.

On the other hand, it is because of threat of violence and death by other communities and due to their economic dependence on these communities that majority of oppressed untouchable community folks are not converting to other religions. Who would continue to live life like an animal without human rights and inhuman treatment and condemned by their religion with no hope of betterment for the rest of their life? In no other country, any one will go through such life full of indignities quietly as they have done here in this country.

It can happen only in India.The only reason is a threat to their lives if they did convert. Conversion can only take place when they are in an overwhelming numerical majority when they can thwart any danger to their lives and properties.

It is high time that the society let them emerge from their deprived state of living and merge into the mainstream. Additionally, it should also help in the process of integration so that it doesn't turn into a major upheaval.

Originally Posted by Fusionist

If you check out Portuguese records themselves, they clearly document temple destruction all along the Tamil Nadu coast from Mylapore to Nagapattinam.

For example here is an article about Hindu temple destruction by the very same Portuguese in Sri Lanka at the same time, sadly the events in Tamil Nadu has been deliberately suppressed by some vested interests through the education system, propoganda and other means.

Tamil nadu has been one of the few states where people of different religious faiths live peacefully together. This communal amity should be maintained at all costs so that everyone can make progress. There may have been mistakes made by many of the religious groups to other religions or sects or castes within the same religion. It is time to forgive and forge ahead rather than dig ourselves into a deep hole by disturbing the peace in the name of studying and revising history.

If anybody is genuinely interesting in the history and revising it, it should be left to the professionals instead of political and interested groups. When any statement of stellar objects are studied and made by astronomers and other subjects by people similarly trained people, why is that everyone wants to rewrite history?