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Old December 29th, 2009, 09:21 PM   #61
JYDA
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I don't think anybody needs to worry about FIBA giving Britain the Eurobasket as a favour to help grow the game. Considering FIBA's dirty tactics of trying to keep Britain's basketball team out of their own Olympic tournament, it's clear FIBA doesn't care about growing the game there at all!
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Old December 30th, 2009, 12:01 AM   #62
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LOL.

Tbh I would be amazed if that actually happened. It's pretty much taken as a given here that there will be a men's and women's GB basketball team at 2012, and that is very much the focal point of the BBF's short term strategy (5 years form 2008). Their minimum aim is a QF position. Missing out on wildcard for the 2010 Championship was a bit of a blow, but, tbh, would have been a bonus anyway.

Also, I think it's up to the basketball authorities here (BBF and BBL) to grow the sport, not for FIBA to gift them a tournament when there are other, more deserving hosts for now. They can certainly help though the way FIFA does.
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Old December 30th, 2009, 01:12 AM   #63
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FIFA help? FIFA are forced to give tournaments to non European nations because they hold the majority (politics), no doubt FIFA would keep the world cup in Europe if they could. The only countries FIFA are really interested in are those that can raise the value of their TV and Sponsorship revenue (where their money comes from). That's why they look at the USA as a juicy piece of meat!

FIBA don't see the UK as lucrative basketball territory, and i'd agree it may get played but I don't think it has a hope in hell. It's in a position where i'd assume football was in the states before the NASL exploded. FIBA needs to see something which well show them that there efforts wouldn't be wasted just like FIFA apparently saw in handing the USA the 1994 world cup.

And I don't see it, in many ways the NBA does more harm to growing the game in the UK than good.
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Old December 30th, 2009, 01:51 AM   #64
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FIFA help? FIFA are forced to give tournaments to non European nations because they hold the majority (politics), no doubt FIFA would keep the world cup in Europe if they could. The only countries FIFA are really interested in are those that can raise the value of their TV and Sponsorship revenue (where their money comes from). That's why they look at the USA as a juicy piece of meat!
lol, yh in retrospect perhaps FIFA wasn't a great example! I just mean in some of the assistance they give to smaller nation's FAs, although it really is peanuts. And totally agree about FIFA and money. Apparently, Blatter wrote to the Chinese FA (or equivalent) practically begging them to bid for either the 2018 or 2022 WCs. Clown.

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FIBA don't see the UK as lucrative basketball territory, and i'd agree it may get played but I don't think it has a hope in hell. It's in a position where i'd assume football was in the states before the NASL exploded. FIBA needs to see something which well show them that there efforts wouldn't be wasted just like FIFA apparently saw in handing the USA the 1994 world cup.

And I don't see it, in many ways the NBA does more harm to growing the game in the UK than good.

What do you mean doesn't have a hope in hell? The Olympic team? Sorry man, a bit confused here! Basketball was bigger in terms of spectatorship during the 90s when I was a teenager then it is now. Then you had the NBA on ITV (NBA Jam i think, on Saturdays) before moving to Channel 4 which produced good programmes. At the same time you had Sky showing BBL games for a number of years and I certainly heard a lot more about the defunct London Towers than whoever is the London team now! Crowds were supposedly bigger too. Something very similar happened in Australia with their league, which is at a lower ebb than during the 90s.

Agree about the NBA; it dominates here on a spectator level. Worryingly, the NBA is probably the BBF's most supportive international partner (they supposedly lobbied for the GB team to get a wildcard place next year), although we all know that is for their own commercial interests. Basketball here has been woefully organised. Until recently, it was developed and controlled by a mish-mash hybrid of the 4 home nation’s bodies, several different leagues of which one was pro and the UK Sports Council, the latter who actually oversaw general development and organised funding. Only recently has there been some kind of central structure and strategy worthy of the name (in a relative sense). You see in football countries like Brazil how important good organisation between authorities is.
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Old December 30th, 2009, 02:36 AM   #65
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LOL.

Tbh I would be amazed if that actually happened. It's pretty much taken as a given here that there will be a men's and women's GB basketball team at 2012, and that is very much the focal point of the BBF's short term strategy (5 years form 2008). Their minimum aim is a QF position. Missing out on wildcard for the 2010 Championship was a bit of a blow, but, tbh, would have been a bonus anyway.
I would be amazed if it happened as well but it's still something to be concerned about. FIBA said the Brits have to qualify for a Eurobasket to be allowed into the Olympics. They achieved that and then FIBA moved the goalposts to vaguely say "you have to show you're competitive". Even after a decent showing in Poland (without some of their best players) the British federation keeps asking FIBA "are we in?" and FIBA is giving nothing but silence. I think the Brits will get a spot in the end but FIBA's actions have been nothing short of disgraceful
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Old December 30th, 2009, 04:38 PM   #66
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Yeah it is a bit of joke to say the least. Not quite sure what they're playing at. I don't think they like the encroachment of the NBA, who are almost using the UK and London as some kind of European launch pad. But they're hardly bothering to counter.
Btw, I was laughing at what you wrote because I found it funny, not because I thought it was a load of crap! (just in case there is a mix-up – never know on here! )
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Old December 30th, 2009, 07:22 PM   #67
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lol, yh in retrospect perhaps FIFA wasn't a great example! I just mean in some of the assistance they give to smaller nation's FAs, although it really is peanuts. And totally agree about FIFA and money. Apparently, Blatter wrote to the Chinese FA (or equivalent) practically begging them to bid for either the 2018 or 2022 WCs. Clown.
it's weird in the 1990s they "tried" to "fight" the money coming into the game, now they are getting fat off it!

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What do you mean doesn't have a hope in hell? The Olympic team?
I mean the sport getting popular, or popular enough for the newspapers to cover it. They barely cover anything except football.

It's popular in London (with a small p), but I just think it's because a lot of kids think it's cool rather than other factors. By that I mean there the same kids who wear doorags and think Soulja boy is the second coming! Basketball has one thing that football hasn't it's stars are "cooler". I mean who's the coolest footballer, Rio Ferdinand LMAO...

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Sorry man, a bit confused here! Basketball was bigger in terms of spectatorship during the 90s when I was a teenager then it is now.

Then you had the NBA on ITV (NBA Jam i think, on Saturdays) before moving to Channel 4 which produced good programmes.

At the same time you had Sky showing BBL games for a number of years and I certainly heard a lot more about the defunct London Towers than whoever is the London team now!
I remember it being big in the early 1990s. I remember the summer youth club I used to go to took us to a London Towers game, think it was at crystal palace, we always used to go to crystal palace. MIght've been the old london arena actually...

I have vague recollection of that I do remember them showing highlights of the NBA finals between the lakers and iversons 76ers... it seems that teh NBA was the NFL of the 1990s. Channel 4 were/are the governments niche channel.

Is there actually a London team now? I seem to recall it even being covered by London Tonight, more in one of their human interest pieces than as serious sport though...

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Crowds were supposedly bigger too. Something very similar happened in Australia with their league, which is at a lower ebb than during the 90s.
I'd assume the innitial euphoria wore off and people lost interest. You could argue the 1990s was a sports boom not just a football boom.

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Agree about the NBA; it dominates here on a spectator level. Worryingly, the NBA is probably the BBF's most supportive international partner (they supposedly lobbied for the GB team to get a wildcard place next year), although we all know that is for their own commercial interests.
And that's why I don't want them over here! I don't like any (team) sport th t puts money before sport.

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Basketball here has been woefully organised. Until recently, it was developed and controlled by a mish-mash hybrid of the 4 home nation’s bodies, several different leagues of which one was pro and the UK Sports Council, the latter who actually oversaw general development and organised funding.
The way I see it is that because European Bball gets no coverage (the token stuff on Eurosport doesn't count) so most people don't know or care about it. They think the NBA is it. There is no connection with European stuff and thus no academy or developmental system that we have in other sports and that's the important factor. Kids who have "skills" have to go to the states at a young age (16) and then lose their accents. Luol Deng is the perfect example for me he'd be more of a poster boy if he'd retained his south London swagger (if he ever had it).

The other thing that hinders it for me is the countries that are good at it... I mean our natural rivals Germany, France, Australia are generally not Basketball super powers (although france has grown). I don't mean to be rude but beating Lithuania, Greece or Serbia at Basketball just doesn't capture peoples imaginations. Although beating New Zealand at rugby does hmmm.

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Only recently has there been some kind of central structure and strategy worthy of the name (in a relative sense). You see in football countries like Brazil how important good organisation between authorities is.
It's because they have sports clubs though, they used the football teams to grow other sports. Like would Basketball be as big in spain if Barca and Real Madrid hadn't sponsored it, same in greece etc. Maybe if more teams took Everton's lead and branched into other sports it would grow. But then again aren't sports supposed to competiting....
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Old December 30th, 2009, 09:34 PM   #68
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The other thing that hinders it for me is the countries that are good at it... I mean our natural rivals Germany, France, Australia are generally not Basketball super powers (although france has grown). I don't mean to be rude but beating Lithuania, Greece or Serbia at Basketball just doesn't capture peoples imaginations. Although beating New Zealand at rugby does hmmm.
But those countries are good at it. They're all top 15 in the world and all have had some very high finishes at major tournaments in the last few years. Aside from the US, the top 20 teams in the world can all beat each other on any given day.

Lithuania, Greece and Serbia might not be that attractive but what about other good teams like Argentina, Brazil, Italy, Spain and Russia?
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Old December 30th, 2009, 10:42 PM   #69
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I mean the sport getting popular, or popular enough for the newspapers to cover it. They barely cover anything except football.

It's popular in London (with a small p), but I just think it's because a lot of kids think it's cool rather than other factors. By that I mean there the same kids who wear doorags and think Soulja boy is the second coming! Basketball has one thing that football hasn't it's stars are "cooler". I mean who's the coolest footballer, Rio Ferdinand LMAO...
Right, but I think the sport's bodies are looking at sports like athletics or swimming, for example, in terms of coverage, with perhaps something like Rugby League as the eventual goal (in terms of media interest)
It would be pointless even thinking about competing with football. In fact, it would make more sense working with football by getting PL stars to watch GB games, or doing tie ups with clubs. Btw, I think you underestimate interest at participant level. At my school, it was easily the second most popular sport to play after football, despite the place being in Hertfordshire and 90% white and 75% middle class. I use to live near Kennington Park, close to Camberwell, and basketball and football were the only facilities that were always played when I walked past (there was also tennis courts and some other stuff)
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I remember it being big in the early 1990s. I remember the summer youth club I used to go to took us to a London Towers game, think it was at crystal palace, we always used to go to crystal palace. MIght've been the old london arena actually...

I have vague recollection of that I do remember them showing highlights of the NBA finals between the lakers and iversons 76ers... it seems that teh NBA was the NFL of the 1990s. Channel 4 were/are the governments niche channel.

Is there actually a London team now? I seem to recall it even being covered by London Tonight, more in one of their human interest pieces than as serious sport though...
The Towers were based at Wembley Arena for a bit, so local to me for a period. I saw one of their games. Maybe about 1500 people there. Tbh, I don't think the NBA has spent anything like the money on marketing the game here like the NFL has until very recently with the games at the 02,etc. This is the third time the NFL has tried to 'crack' the European market and I think they're wasting their time. My uncle use to play like semi-pro or something back in the late 80s in front of crowds of up 10,000 on big games (prob exaggerating! lol) and about a year ago he said the game had more interest back then. The problem is there is little to no grassroots, with the exception of a few uni boys having a laugh. Personally, I find the game incredible dull and slow and when a bunch of us tried watching the Superbowl a few years back we switch off after about 45 mins. A London franchise would still make money though and I guess that is their aim, not growing the sport.
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I'd assume the innitial euphoria wore off and people lost interest. You could argue the 1990s was a sports boom not just a football boom.
Hmm, possibly, although I read that the ITV Digital collapse had a big impact because teams naturally budgeted themselves against future earnings (they paid £21 million, surprisingly. To put into context they were only getting £1 million at sky, and Cricket got around £60 million during 1998 for a 4 year deal). We saw in a strong sport like football what happened, so a small, growing league was bound to be doomed. I don't know what would have happened, but I remember reading about the Towers plan to build a 5,000 seater arena and entertainment complex in Brent X (can only find a 2002 article from the independent, but I def remember pics in a Wembley local). All this must have been based on the guarantee of that TV contract, but they had big plans.

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And that's why I don't want them over here! I don't like any (team) sport th t puts money before sport.
You know my feelings about this - mutual!

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The way I see it is that because European Bball gets no coverage (the token stuff on Eurosport doesn't count) so most people don't know or care about it. They think the NBA is it. There is no connection with European stuff and thus no academy or developmental system that we have in other sports and that's the important factor. Kids who have "skills" have to go to the states at a young age (16) and then lose their accents. Luol Deng is the perfect example for me he'd be more of a poster boy if he'd retained his south London swagger (if he ever had it).

The other thing that hinders it for me is the countries that are good at it... I mean our natural rivals Germany, France, Australia are generally not Basketball super powers (although france has grown). I don't mean to be rude but beating Lithuania, Greece or Serbia at Basketball just doesn't capture peoples imaginations. Although beating New Zealand at rugby does hmmm.
Yeah I agree. The approach they are taking now of focuings on the GB team and using that as the focal point makes a lot of sense. I guess you could call it the '3rd model' of building a sport; using a unique outlet (mostly likely a national team, or possibly an event) to milk as much interest and resources for the sport as a whole (the other two are the slow building grassroots model or the pump-loads-of-cash-hope-it-grows model). This basically is what cricket and Tennis do in the UK. No one gives a damn about County cricket beyond over 50s and I'd bet that the money that comes in for England dwarfs the rest. Tennis has the same with Wimbledon. Pretty much their whole revenue model is about getting as much from those 2 weeks (TV coverage, tickets, merchandise, etc) and than funnelling it down. I would bet at least 70% of the LTA's revenue is directly or indirectly linked to Wimbledon. The BBF and co are basically trying to do the same with the GB team, hoping that big NBA stars (or star) that people recognise will get bums on seats and the media interested. With the Olympics they know they'll get their 'golden' media moment. They’ll probably play the US this summer and I think they’ll see that as media opportunity. Will it work? I dunno, but it’s the right thing to do in the short term whilst they try and grow the BBL again (which I think is dependent on having a successful GB team now)

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It's because they have sports clubs though, they used the football teams to grow other sports. Like would Basketball be as big in spain if Barca and Real Madrid hadn't sponsored it, same in greece etc. Maybe if more teams took Everton's lead and branched into other sports it would grow. But then again aren't sports supposed to competiting....
Exactly. They support an institution, so the basketball team is just another, smaller, face of Real or Barca. I wouldn't want to see it here, but would love to see link ups with football, for example getting English PL players down GB games to boost media interest (see the NBA games earlier this year with Henry and co). Basketball is competition with sports like Ice Hockey, RL, etc. Football is just too far ingrained for it to even worry about domestic competition tbh. It’s a monster!
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Old December 30th, 2009, 10:54 PM   #70
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But those countries are good at it. They're all top 15 in the world and all have had some very high finishes at major tournaments in the last few years. Aside from the US, the top 20 teams in the world can all beat each other on any given day.

Lithuania, Greece and Serbia might not be that attractive but what about other good teams like Argentina, Brazil, Italy, Spain and Russia?
None of them are the best though, and none of them put there heart and soul into the sport (not to mentioen the height thing).

The only moderately important countries in Europe that put their heart and soul into baskeball are Lithuania, Greece and Serbia and the fact that in the case of Greece and Serbia they put even more heart and soul into football and are only as good as they are (upper mid ranks), suggests that beating them in Basketball isn't worth much (especially given they are "powers" in that sport).

Beating Germany in football and France in Rugby and Football means a lot because it's the belief that it means something, you're beating the whole of Germany/France. That's why you hear the songs "two world wars and one world cup" whenever we play Germany...

Cricket seems to survive on the ashes (beating Australia) and to a lesser extent India. And rugbys popularity is based upon the 6 nations and South Affirca. I genuinely believe people in England believe your Australias and New Zealands are far bigger than they are.

It's basically about beating our rivals at what we perceived to be their most popular sport. The USA is another natural enemy but what are the odds on us ever beating them at one of their sports? If that happens and it's not a fluke then maybe.
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Old December 31st, 2009, 12:18 AM   #71
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Right, but I think the sport's bodies are looking at sports like athletics or swimming, for example, in terms of coverage, with perhaps something like Rugby League as the eventual goal (in terms of media interest)
So basically you mean get sky sports on side so they can show highlights on sky sports news, which is free to air?

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It would be pointless even thinking about competing with football. In fact, it would make more sense working with football by getting PL stars to watch GB games, or doing tie ups with clubs.
Can u see that though? football owes nothing to no one and i'd doubt it would help any other sport. Personally I think it should help itself before helping others!

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Btw, I think you underestimate interest at participant level. At my school, it was easily the second most popular sport to play after football, despite the place being in Hertfordshire and 90% white and 75% middle class. I use to live near Kennington Park, close to Camberwell, and basketball and football were the only facilities that were always played when I walked past (there was also tennis courts and some other stuff)
No I agree it's very popular, maybe it annoys me whenever I see kids on the bus with a basketball instead a football (although it's probably just I notice it more than it happens a lot). Maybe it's my fear that football will lose the working class if it's not careful. It's probably no doubt all irrational fear... but I just have this fear football is gonna kill itself.

I remember at school I enjoyed playing it. But it was usually enjoyed playing it in PE, every break and lunch it was football football football. Most saturdays we were down at "goals soccer centre" playing football. My school had and moderate black population (got larger every year, around 50% now) but basketball despite being more popular than say rugby or cricket was just another sport.

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The Towers were based at Wembley Arena for a bit, so local to me for a period. I saw one of their games. Maybe about 1500 people there.
Should've been called the London Wanderers!

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Tbh, I don't think the NBA has spent anything like the money on marketing the game here like the NFL has until very recently with the games at the 02,etc. This is the third time the NFL has tried to 'crack' the European market and I think they're wasting their time. My uncle use to play like semi-pro or something back in the late 80s in front of crowds of up 10,000 on big games (prob exaggerating! lol) and about a year ago he said the game had more interest back then. The problem is there is little to no grassroots, with the exception of a few uni boys having a laugh.
Yeah it was played at my uni, they played in the BUSA league. They all use to walk around campus in their american football gear flanked by their ugly overweight cheerleaders. Totally surreal.

I think the NFL is deluded they literally think it's such an irresistable sport that once the rest of the world sees the "product" they see they'll immediately fall in love. But no chance, firstly legally TV companies can't put in as many TV commercials as they can in the states (EU law) so half the time is spent listening to guys talking!!

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Personally, I find the game incredible dull and slow and when a bunch of us tried watching the Superbowl a few years back we switch off after about 45 mins.
I enjoy the sport (not as much as a lot of others though), but when my university house had a super bowl party one of my housemates invited her brother. And they all fell asleep only me and my other housemate watched the game, says it all really.

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A London franchise would still make money though and I guess that is their aim, not growing the sport.
Exactly! That's the difference between the american sporting outlook and the European!

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Hmm, possibly, although I read that the ITV Digital collapse had a big impact because teams naturally budgeted themselves against future earnings (they paid £21 million, surprisingly. To put into context they were only getting £1 million at sky, and Cricket got around £60 million during 1998 for a 4 year deal). We saw in a strong sport like football what happened, so a small, growing league was bound to be doomed.
Didn't realise ITV digital were that involved. But the thing is Basketball has to prove to TV companies that it's worth investing in, just like every sport that isn't considered a national treasure.

I think when Sky collapses (c. 10 years) because of streaming it will have a knock on effect similar.

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I don't know what would have happened, but I remember reading about the Towers plan to build a 5,000 seater arena and entertainment complex in Brent X (can only find a 2002 article from the independent, but I def remember pics in a Wembley local). All this must have been based on the guarantee of that TV contract, but they had big plans.
Interesting, but having one succesful franchise does not make a league... Obviously the Towers would've been part of wider plans rather than the catalyst for those plans.

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You know my feelings about this - mutual!
Unfortunately, It's about the non believers though!

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Yeah I agree. The approach they are taking now of focuings on the GB team and using that as the focal point makes a lot of sense. I guess you could call it the '3rd model' of building a sport; using a unique outlet (mostly likely a national team, or possibly an event) to milk as much interest and resources for the sport as a whole (the other two are the slow building grassroots model or the pump-loads-of-cash-hope-it-grows model).

This basically is what cricket and Tennis do in the UK. No one gives a damn about County cricket beyond over 50s and I'd bet that the money that comes in for England dwarfs the rest. Tennis has the same with Wimbledon. Pretty much their whole revenue model is about getting as much from those 2 weeks (TV coverage, tickets, merchandise, etc) and than funnelling it down. I would bet at least 70% of the LTA's revenue is directly or indirectly linked to Wimbledon.
Surely you need the foundations underneath for the '3rd model' to work?

TV is a the biggest threat to growing a sport in the modern world, in the past people who had been hooked to a sport through say the success of a national team would've gone to the grass roots to get their fix now they've got the NBA beamed into their living room. I think it works in Cricket and Tennis because the framework already existed.

It's in many ways like Baseball and it's minor league system using the MLB to fund the low levels of the sport which help to develop the talent that will eventually play in MLB.

If you look at the traditional national team dominated sports, rugby and cricket. Both are now seeing a massive rennaisance of the club game which one day could grow past it's international counterpart. It would take years for that to happen in basketball. Or are you saying that the club game should just be to produce players for the national team, but not worry about generating revenue itself?

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The BBF and co are basically trying to do the same with the GB team, hoping that big NBA stars (or star) that people recognise will get bums on seats and the media interested.
But do people recognise Luol Deng? Or Ben Gordon, did people even know John Amaechi existed?

I dunno out of sight out of mind.

For the sport to grow here we need to produce a 6'-6'2" white pretty boy point guard with the pop star girl friend. (The David Beckham of Basketball)

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With the Olympics they know they'll get their 'golden' media moment.
Will they though? Surely we have to be drawn in a group with the USA to get any coverage, just like China were. Otherwise the media will just focus on our medal hopes, and if I am not mistaken doesn't the start of the premier league coincide with the olympics or will it be pushed back that year?

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They’ll probably play the US this summer and I think they’ll see that as media opportunity. Will it work? I dunno, but it’s the right thing to do in the short term whilst they try and grow the BBL again (which I think is dependent on having a successful GB team now)
tbf the only way the BBL will grow off of the national team is if the players from the national team play in the BBL. Otherwise it won't work. They need the sky sports monopoly on side too!

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Exactly. They support an institution, so the basketball team is just another, smaller, face of Real or Barca. I wouldn't want to see it here, but would love to see link ups with football, for example getting English PL players down GB games to boost media interest (see the NBA games earlier this year with Henry and co).
Me neither, although I don't know how intertwined the clubs are as the other sports teams tend to have sponsored names as well.

I just don't see what benefit it is to football to link with Bball? The onus is basketball for me.

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Basketball is competition with sports like Ice Hockey, RL, etc. Football is just too far ingrained for it to even worry about domestic competition tbh. It’s a monster!
Yeah I agree but I don't really want it to have it's niche in my area if you know what I mean. The other sports are equipment and space intensive, basketball isn't...
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Old December 31st, 2009, 02:04 AM   #72
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So basically you mean get sky sports on side so they can show highlights on sky sports news, which is free to air?
Yeah that is one thing, but I was thinking more about the BBC. I mean, they have a duty to use their resources beyond just audience busting programmes. That's why you get even more minor sports than basketball getting decent airtime, such as skiing, gymnastics, swimming, etc.

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Can u see that though? football owes nothing to no one and i'd doubt it would help any other sport. Personally I think it should help itself before helping others!
Well, if they see a gain in it! Tbh, its up to basketball to approach football rather than the other way round. Ball is in their court, so-to-speak.

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No I agree it's very popular, maybe it annoys me whenever I see kids on the bus with a basketball instead a football (although it's probably just I notice it more than it happens a lot). Maybe it's my fear that football will lose the working class if it's not careful. It's probably no doubt all irrational fear... but I just have this fear football is gonna kill itself.

I remember at school I enjoyed playing it. But it was usually enjoyed playing it in PE, every break and lunch it was football football football. Most saturdays we were down at "goals soccer centre" playing football. My school had and moderate black population (got larger every year, around 50% now) but basketball despite being more popular than say rugby or cricket was just another sport.
Lol. Well, there are alot of people who think football will kinda eat itself and even hopes it does. When the whole bullshit 39 game thing came out alot of guys just said enough is enough and I think the PL was really surprised at the huge negative backlash it got. My worry is the foreign owners who will just treat it like US sports. What the Glazers have done to Man Utd really is disgusting when you look into it, increasing prices so high that demand and supply equate, as well as the Compulsory Automatic Cup Scheme.
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Should've been called the London Wanderers!


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Yeah it was played at my uni, they played in the BUSA league. They all use to walk around campus in their american football gear flanked by their ugly overweight cheerleaders. Totally surreal.

I think the NFL is deluded they literally think it's such an irresistable sport that once the rest of the world sees the "product" they see they'll immediately fall in love. But no chance, firstly legally TV companies can't put in as many TV commercials as they can in the states (EU law) so half the time is spent listening to guys talking!!

I enjoy the sport (not as much as a lot of others though), but when my university house had a super bowl party one of my housemates invited her brother. And they all fell asleep only me and my other housemate watched the game, says it all really.

Exactly! That's the difference between the american sporting outlook and the European!
LOL. Never saw that! A really good friend of my got involved, but really it was just an opportunity for him to get fitter and expand his social circle.

I guess its better than NFL Europe; what a flop that was! Tbf, I think I would enjoy playing it as I liked rugby at school, but it is just too drawn out to watch. A game that should take a little more than an hour ends up taking 3 and a half!
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Didn't realise ITV digital were that involved. But the thing is Basketball has to prove to TV companies that it's worth investing in, just like every sport that isn't considered a national treasure.

I think when Sky collapses (c. 10 years) because of streaming it will have a knock on effect similar.

Interesting, but having one successful franchise does not make a league... Obviously the Towers would've been part of wider plans rather than the catalyst for those plans.
Yeah, neither did I. I dug out an old article from the Independent and it says that between 40,000 - 150,000 watched the BBL when it was on SS during the latter 90s. Considering that at the time only the biggest football matches would get close to 2 million tops on SS, I reckon that it was on bar with an average RL game. Apparently, the BBL had figures of 3-1 above audience for ice hockey, which was going through its own boom at the time.

The big problem was a classic sports one: a lack of teams owning their own home. If you're renting around, then any financial knock will probably blow you over. Look at County cricket, a lot of the clubs get less than 1,000 people for many games, yet because they own the stadiums the effect is less severe. What probably should have happened is that if the whole ITV thing was coolio, the league should have consolidated and stabilised during this decade after high (relative) growth in the 90s, using the period to fix up homes for the teams, possible league expansion and then modest growth towards the latter period.

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Surely you need the foundations underneath for the '3rd model' to work?

TV is a the biggest threat to growing a sport in the modern world, in the past people who had been hooked to a sport through say the success of a national team would've gone to the grass roots to get their fix now they've got the NBA beamed into their living room. I think it works in Cricket and Tennis because the framework already existed.

It's in many ways like Baseball and it's minor league system using the MLB to fund the low levels of the sport which help to develop the talent that will eventually play in MLB.

If you look at the traditional national team dominated sports, rugby and cricket. Both are now seeing a massive rennaisance of the club game which one day could grow past it's international counterpart. It would take years for that to happen in basketball. Or are you saying that the club game should just be to produce players for the national team, but not worry about generating revenue itself?
Yeah I agree. I guess its a three way structure with the grassroots (schools, clubs, etc) at the bottom, league in the middle and national team at the top. The BBF deals with the first and last one, so their focus will be skewed towards them. I guess the foundations would be the large body of people who play the sport at grassroots level?

You're right about RU, although it will have to change its schedule a lot (too many clashes with football and playing club rugby during Intl. matches isn't helpful). Can't see it with cricket, County Champs is dead in my view. People only care about the Ashes here, there is a huge drop off after that. The only way i could see the domestic game going up is if they completely overhaul it to a 20twenty format and base the teams in our major cities, not counties, and get the Asian community involved before they are lost to football like Caribbean descendents (speaking with my own family as experience here)

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But do people recognise Luol Deng? Or Ben Gordon, did people even know John Amaechi existed?

I dunno out of sight out of mind.

For the sport to grow here we need to produce a 6'-6'2" white pretty boy point guard with the pop star girl friend. (The David Beckham of Basketball)
.True, although I saw a picture of Deng in a sports shop once. I read that the NBA themselves want to turn him into some kind of British 'Jordan'. Oh dear.
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Will they though? Surely we have to be drawn in a group with the USA to get any coverage, just like China were. Otherwise the media will just focus on our medal hopes, and if I am not mistaken doesn't the start of the premier league coincide with the olympics or will it be pushed back that year?
Well I dunno. You get those people who just follow the Olympics cos tis the Olympics (It is still so big here. I was working in the US during Athens and it was much more low key there) plus patriots who support anything British. It will probably needs coverage before then though via the next Eurobasket (assuming qualification) and some high profile friendly games . It is during August so you might be right, but if it is during the first 2 weeks than it probably won't.

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tbf the only way the BBL will grow off of the national team is if the players from the national team play in the BBL. Otherwise it won't work. They need the sky sports monopoly on side too!
In the longer term yes. But France and German have all their NT guys in the NBA as well so. I guess were looking at basketball reaching that level over the next ten years; still minor but with media coverage and a league with legs.

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Me neither, although I don't know how intertwined the clubs are as the other sports teams tend to have sponsored names as well.

I just don't see what benefit it is to football to link with Bball? The onus is basketball for me.
True

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Yeah I agree but I don't really want it to have it's niche in my area if you know what I mean. The other sports are equipment and space intensive, basketball isn't...
lol, yh but it still won't up stake football. I think.
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Old December 31st, 2009, 02:30 AM   #73
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On another note, I just read about this here and here

Seems like it is backed by former NBA players, a bunch of sport and marketing guys and American money (has one of its offices in NYC). Never heard about it before.
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Old December 31st, 2009, 03:42 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerouac1848 View Post
Yeah that is one thing, but I was thinking more about the BBC. I mean, they have a duty to use their resources beyond just audience busting programmes. That's why you get even more minor sports than basketball getting decent airtime, such as skiing, gymnastics, swimming, etc.
But it's usually after the success of a brit though isn't it. Until last years olympics I rarely remember seeing swimming on the BBC. NOw we're good at it, it's on whenever their is a big meet. I remember the same thing happened with Rowing after 2000!

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Well, if they see a gain in it! Tbh, its up to basketball to approach football rather than the other way round. Ball is in their court, so-to-speak.
Exactly

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Lol. Well, there are alot of people who think football will kinda eat itself and even hopes it does. When the whole bullshit 39 game thing came out alot of guys just said enough is enough and I think the PL was really surprised at the huge negative backlash it got. My worry is the foreign owners who will just treat it like US sports. What the Glazers have done to Man Utd really is disgusting when you look into it, increasing prices so high that demand and supply equate, as well as the Compulsory Automatic Cup Scheme.
Agree totally, that 39th game isn't dead apparently. Richard Scudamore is like football's antichrist!

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LOL. Never saw that! A really good friend of my got involved, but really it was just an opportunity for him to get fitter and expand his social circle.
Tbf I just went out that's an easy way get drunk and appear in random facebook pictures (when it wasn't an open website) and have lots of random friend requests, then bump into random people you apparently met the nght before on campus. Always an adventure!

Quote:
I guess its better than NFL Europe; what a flop that was! Tbf, I think I would enjoy playing it as I liked rugby at school, but it is just too drawn out to watch. A game that should take a little more than an hour ends up taking 3 and a half!
It's weird because I never did enjoy rugby at school because I didn;t understand it. They always used to put me out on the wing because i'm fast. But I reckon with todays knowledge of the game Icoulda been decent.

I reckon the same with you I'd enjoy playing American football only if I saw the ball every down though. None of this sitting around bollocks

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Yeah, neither did I. I dug out an old article from the Independent and it says that between 40,000 - 150,000 watched the BBL when it was on SS during the latter 90s. Considering that at the time only the biggest football matches would get close to 2 million tops on SS, I reckon that it was on bar with an average RL game. Apparently, the BBL had figures of 3-1 above audience for ice hockey, which was going through its own boom at the time.
I dunno, football figures never take into account people watching it in bars, and i'd assume rugby figures too. And also rugby league is a sport very popular in the places hwere it is but they have a low population which counters that.

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The big problem was a classic sports one: a lack of teams owning their own home. If you're renting around, then any financial knock will probably blow you over. Look at County cricket, a lot of the clubs get less than 1,000 people for many games, yet because they own the stadiums the effect is less severe. What probably should have happened is that if the whole ITV thing was coolio, the league should have consolidated and stabilised during this decade after high (relative) growth in the 90s, using the period to fix up homes for the teams, possible league expansion and then modest growth towards the latter period.
Yeah but what happens when it's time to expand? Expanding an arena is a lot harder than a stadium!

I just think it would've maybe done a rugby league in the towns where it's popular, but Rugby league still is dominated by football even in places like Wigan where although people don't support Wigan Athletic they support one of the manchester, Liverpool or bolton clubs.

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Yeah I agree. I guess its a three way structure with the grassroots (schools, clubs, etc) at the bottom, league in the middle and national team at the top. The BBF deals with the first and last one, so their focus will be skewed towards them. I guess the foundations would be the large body of people who play the sport at grassroots level?
It's about turning participation into spectators though, that's the problem.

Quote:
You're right about RU, although it will have to change its schedule a lot (too many clashes with football and playing club rugby during Intl. matches isn't helpful). Can't see it with cricket, County Champs is dead in my view. People only care about the Ashes here, there is a huge drop off after that. The only way i could see the domestic game going up is if they completely overhaul it to a 20twenty format and base the teams in our major cities, not counties, and get the Asian community involved before they are lost to football like Caribbean descendents (speaking with my own family as experience here)
I've played football with some immense asian footballers, but there families wont let them play the game seriously. Within a few generations they'll be lost to cricket too.

20/20 is all cricket has left imho, to draw the fans back.


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.True, although I saw a picture of Deng in a sports shop once. I read that the NBA themselves want to turn him into some kind of British 'Jordan'. Oh dear.
haha I know there is some deng stuff on BBCs basketball page.

Quote:
Well I dunno. You get those people who just follow the Olympics cos tis the Olympics (It is still so big here. I was working in the US during Athens and it was much more low key there) plus patriots who support anything British. It will probably needs coverage before then though via the next Eurobasket (assuming qualification) and some high profile friendly games . It is during August so you might be right, but if it is during the first 2 weeks than it probably won't.
Will it though, ESPNs coverage of this Eurobasket was unbelievably low key. I think BBC will focus heavily on our medal prospect sports so they are household names by 2012 and Basketball will need to feed on the crumbs.

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In the longer term yes. But France and German have all their NT guys in the NBA as well so. I guess were looking at basketball reaching that level over the next ten years; still minor but with media coverage and a league with legs.
To me the only way is as you say partnerships because that's how it's worked elsewhere, but football will never help anyone else.

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lol, yh but it still won't up stake football. I think.
I hope so

It only takes one estate to fall like a dominho then the other dominhos come tumbling. I sound like the americans who justified the vietnam war based upon the dominho effect.
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Old February 22nd, 2010, 12:56 AM   #75
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news?
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Old May 20th, 2010, 03:10 AM   #76
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FIBA have announced that six countries have made their bid for Mens EuroBasket 2013. Those are:

Germany
Czech Republic
Italy
Slovenia
Croatia
Bosnia Herzegovina

Also, there are bidders for Womens EuroBasket same year:

Slovakia
France
Serbia
Belarus

more on fiba.coml

If it was my decision, I would give my vote to Bosnia Herzegovina, as they never hosted, since independent country, any major senior sporting event, but I think that BiH can make that EuroBasket editon one of the best ever. Also, if Bosnia fails, I would like to see EB in Croatia.
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Old May 20th, 2010, 03:33 AM   #77
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BIH? Apart from Zenica they don't have one single hall that could host it. Široki is too small, Zetra is simply bad, Skenderija is... well... beyond bad.

Mostal hall is another story which won't change anytime soon due to the fact that half finished hall is on "no mans land" between east and west Mostar.

Croatia and Slovenia still didn't abandon mutual bid idea and i think that such bid might win it. Apart from Germany no one comes even close with standard, size and quality of arenas like those that would be in such bid.
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Old May 20th, 2010, 03:52 AM   #78
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I think that 5k is minimum, and in Siroki Brijeg arena has about 5k. Zetra could be renovated, little bit expaned, also as Skenderija (which holds 7k people and is sufficient)

there is also Borik in Banja Luka, about 3k



which can and will be expanded (money is no problem, biggest mobster in Bosnia is "The Boss" of Republic of Srpska (where Banja Luka is and he, if he wanted it, can make bigger and larger arena)

and also Zenica, great new arena...

I think those arenas are enough for such an event as Eurobasket is (I dont think that bigger and better arenas were used in SCG in 2005)


but I wouldn be unhappy if Croatia wins it (as I am Croat born in Bosnia)... and yes, toughest opponent is Germany
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Old May 20th, 2010, 03:49 PM   #79
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I know in this days the distances are getting less important, but still with candidacy including Ljubljana (2 arenas), Maribor, Koper, Celje and possibly Novo mesto, there would be a driving distance of approx. 2 hours between 2 arenas at most.

I also think, that it's perfect for EuroBasket to have arenas wit a capacity of approx. 5-6k for group matches, and two bigger arenas (in Slovenian case Ljubljana with 8k and 12k). I guess FIBA prefers a full smaller arena to an empty bigger arena.
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Old May 20th, 2010, 04:03 PM   #80
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And Greece looses yet another big sporting event. Even after more than a decade has pasted and Athens alone can host a Eurobasket, not only without the need of a new hall, but without the need of any upgrades what so ever.
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