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Old July 23rd, 2010, 08:52 PM   #201
Ayceman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
'Trst' certainly has a vowel. It's called schwa, but we don't write it, otherwise it would have to be written 'Tərst'. It's pronounced like 'thirst', except without 'h'. In this word the schwa is represented by the letter 'i', but 'i' in Slovenian and Croatian is always pronounced as 'ee', never 'ə' (I think). I doubt it's possible to pronounce 'Trst' without a vowel.
Actually you can pronounce it, even though you don't realize it. The schwa when shortened enough is fused into the voiced trill of the 'r'. That said, I wonder if the Czechs call Captain Kirk - Captain Krk.
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Old July 23rd, 2010, 09:04 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Ayceman View Post
Actually you can pronounce it, even though you don't realize it. The schwa when shortened enough is fused into the voiced trill of the 'r'. That said, I wonder if the Czechs call Captain Kirk - Captain Krk.
Right. Some linguists call R and L "liquids." A consonant is basically an interruption or constriction to the flow of vowels. A P or a T, for example, are complete interruptions, called "stops." It's hard to prolong them (You can bring your lips together to form the P sound, then delay the release, but there's no sound in between). There are sounds like S or SH - hissing-type sounds - that you can prolong, because there is some air getting through. R and L are even more so.

Okay, I'll stop now. :-/
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Old July 23rd, 2010, 09:05 PM   #203
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Actually you can pronounce it, even though you don't realize it. The schwa when shortened enough is fused into the voiced trill of the 'r'.
Yes, but then you'd need a schwa/vowel between 'r' and 's' (Trəst).
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Old July 23rd, 2010, 10:51 PM   #204
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Yeah, I know we were same kingdom and Budapest was capital so Hungarians have own names for every single town. So, that means you are still using names like Pozsony, Besztercebánya, Ipolyság ?
No problem with that, I am just wondering..
Exclusively. Hungarian people would never use the Slovak/Romanian/Serbian names of the cities of the ancient Hungary.
Strange that there is a little part of the old Hungary in Austria, too (called as Burgenland nowadays) but Hungarian people use very rare the Hungarian names of the towns of Burgenland. I bet most of Hungarian people don't even know the Hungarian name for Eisenstadt (Kismarton) while in Slovakia or Romania it is the opposite: many people don't even know the Slovak name for Kassa (Košice).
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Old July 24th, 2010, 12:03 AM   #205
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What is strange on that?

It is good for you to know names of the cities in they own language..
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Old July 24th, 2010, 12:09 AM   #206
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Yep, otherwise you will never reach your destination in some cases
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Old July 24th, 2010, 12:20 AM   #207
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Like near Košice there are some brown (sightseeing) signs in Hungary for Slovak villages just in Hungarian. Who can know names of these villages in Hungarian.

btw, what is the worst on the map you can find names in a one language..
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Old July 24th, 2010, 10:49 AM   #208
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What is strange on that?

It is good for you to know names of the cities in they own language..
I think it's a misunderstanding :-) What I find strange is the difference:
- Hungarian people use the German names of Austrian towns, but
- Hungarian people use the Hungarian names of Slovakian/Romanian/Serbian towns.

(Btw. I do NOT want to start a political quarrel here but what is the "own language" for a town which is in Romania but 90% of the inhabitants are ethnically Hungarian and use the Hungarian language?)
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Old July 24th, 2010, 10:51 AM   #209
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Like near Košice there are some brown (sightseeing) signs in Hungary for Slovak villages just in Hungarian. Who can know names of these villages in Hungarian.

btw, what is the worst on the map you can find names in a one language..
Road maps for the sorrounding countries but published in Hungary usually provide both names.
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Old July 24th, 2010, 10:59 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Attus View Post
I think it's a misunderstanding :-) What I find strange is the difference:
- Hungarian people use the German names of Austrian towns, but
- Hungarian people use the Hungarian names of Slovakian/Romanian/Serbian towns.

(Btw. I do NOT want to start a political quarrel here but what is the "own language" for a town which is in Romania but 90% of the inhabitants are ethnically Hungarian and use the Hungarian language?)
I see and I agree with you. Why not call these cities in your language if they have also Hungarian names?

It`s normal that people use German names because Burgenland was not so long in the Hungarian kingdom and there is not/there wasn`t so many Hungarians as in South Slovakia and parts of Romania.
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Old July 24th, 2010, 11:03 AM   #211
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Road maps for the sorrounding countries but published in Hungary usually provide both names.
Thanks God there is no problem with navigation cos of these double names. In Belgium they have always just one name before village but using 2 names of it (french/dutch). They are always changing and removing signs. The problem is when you check your map.

PS: I like these multi-culutral ares. : -) Nice to traveling there and see many names in different languages.
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Old July 24th, 2010, 01:06 PM   #212
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Road maps for the sorrounding countries but published in Hungary usually provide both names.
Indeed. When we speak or write in Hungarian, we always use the Hungarian names of settlements in Slovakia or Transylvania. We usually also know the name of those places in the official language of the country, but that is not always the case. Sometimes you only know one or the other.

There are easy ones:

Komarno = Komárom
Bardejov = Bártfa
Banska Bystrica = Besztercebánya
Trencin = Trencsény
Kosice = Kassa

etc.

These are usually simply translations or are otherwise easy to figure out.

But then there are difficulties, especially with the "artificial" Slovak settlement names, such as

Sturovo = Párkány
Gabcikovo = Bős
Hurbanovo = Óg*****

and several other ...ovo places that I guess were at some point named after some historical Slovak personalities, I have no idea why, did not these places have traditional Slovak names?

Interestingly, Tornal'a (Tornalja) was also used to be called Safarikovo in Slovak. But they changed it back in 1992, I guess because this Safarik might have been a communist or have fallen out of favour some other way.
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Old July 24th, 2010, 01:27 PM   #213
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But then there are difficulties, especially with the "artificial" Slovak settlement names, such as

Sturovo = Párkány
Gabcikovo = Bős
Hurbanovo = Óg*****

and several other ...ovo places that I guess were at some point named after some historical Slovak personalities, I have no idea why, did not these places have traditional Slovak names?

Interestingly, Tornal'a (Tornalja) was also used to be called Safarikovo in Slovak. But they changed it back in 1992, I guess because this Safarik might have been a communist or have fallen out of favour some other way.
Many people know about Štúrovo, but not so many about other. It was typical for communists to change names of towns. There are many as example (Partizánské=Baťovany, Zlín=Gottwaldovo etc.)

Some of towns get back its old name if it was using by people, these old names of cities which still have "communist" name was just forgot.

btw, Štúrovo = Parkáň, Gabčíkovo = Béš (same pro. like in Hun.), Hurbanovo= Stará Ďala

too late to change it, people use new names after long time
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Old July 24th, 2010, 01:33 PM   #214
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Then, when you are driving away from Budapest in Hungary, you often see these bilingual direction signs such as

Bécs - Wien
Pozsony - Bratislava
Nagyvárad - Oradea
Eszék - Osijek
etc.

These make perfect sense, because not all Hungarians know what the heck Oradea is, and not many foreigners know what the heck Nagyvárad is.

But then this system is sometimes taken to the extreme, such as

Ungvár - Ужгород

Now, in this case, Hungarians and Ukrainians can obviously clearly understand this, but I am not sure this helps an Englishman too much.
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Old July 24th, 2010, 01:37 PM   #215
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Only Hungarians say Nagyvárad to Oradea. On any map (that was not printed in Hungary) you can find Oradea.
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Old July 24th, 2010, 01:40 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
Only Hungarians say Nagyvárad to Oradea. On any map (that was not printed in Hungary) you can find Oradea.
Just discovered that there is an Italian name for that place: Gran Varadino
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Old July 24th, 2010, 01:49 PM   #217
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I live 117 km south of Oradea and I heard about Nagyvárad (but I could not associate it with Oradea). Gran Varadino is SF for me
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Old July 24th, 2010, 01:54 PM   #218
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I think the Italian name is the plain translation of the hungarian one. Nagy==big, am I correct?
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Old July 24th, 2010, 01:56 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
I live 117 km south of Oradea and I heard about Nagyvárad (but I could not associate it with Oradea). Gran Varadino is SF for me
Well, Wikipedia also mentions Großwardein and Varat (Turkish) and רויסווארדיין (Yiddish) :-)

By the way, bilingualism also goes to the extreme sometimes when it is done by some regulation. Once somewhere I have seen a bilingual Romanian - Hungarian sign for Arad. It read "Arad - Arad".
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Old July 24th, 2010, 01:57 PM   #220
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I think the Italian name is the plain translation of the hungarian one. Nagy==big, am I correct?
Correct. Same with the German name. (Großwardein)
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