daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Closed Thread

 
Thread Tools
Old July 3rd, 2011, 06:05 PM   #441
pobre diablo
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,533
Likes (Received): 316

I know of a funny story when a Bulgarian lady was travelling to Thessaloniki but the Bulgarian name is Solun, so once they were in Greece all the signs said Thessaloniki and she said "Are we on the right road, nowhere it says Solun!!", and everyone laughed.
pobre diablo no está en línea  

Sponsored Links
Old July 3rd, 2011, 06:22 PM   #442
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,760

Sometimes it is important also some pics on the road.

I know the story of a person who went on bussiness to a country he did not speak the language. He rented a car and tried to go from airport to hotel.

He was sometime giving tours and very stranged because one city was indicated very often but he couldn't find on maps.
Later he discovers that no city was indicated... but the word "exit".

This is... he was on a motorway and the signal "Exit XX" was very frequently but in the local language (instead of a pic). Most of drivers had no problem but he was totally lost because unknowledge of that language.
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea  
Old July 3rd, 2011, 06:35 PM   #443
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,760

And... it is not signals but referred with roads.

We have euro coins since near ten years ago... but all of us who are citizen of a country that uses euro will remember the situation previously.

In the case of Spain I remember one fact very special...

The most used coin in Spain was 100 ESP (actually 0,6 EUR) and... the number 100 WAS NOT written in the coin. Instead it was writtenthe quantity of the coin... and only in the official language.
Everyone had no problems if looking a 100 ESP coin... but it was written "Cien", instead of "100". Maybe people from latin language countries could think that it was 100... but... citizen of any other country... How many will understand "cien" as "one hundred"?.
Later it was very easy because coins were white and yellow and of different sizes depending valour... but the first time you see it, you are absolute lost.
What does it mean "cien"?. Why this coin has not the number of its prize?


The situations I watched that made necessary to change the coin was on toll cabins on motorways. You enter the country, pass the police control with your passport, get the ticket on the motorway and when you have to pay... you take the bank notes (when you changed currencies, you traveled only with foreing bank notes). Credit cards were not so often as today and most of people payed in cash.
Until here no problem. Foreing driver goes to the toll cabin, gives the ticket, pays with banks notes and receives the change (and suuure... he assume that change is correct) and continues the journey.
Second toll... and this was very cheap (short distance). Maybe one or two coins enough to pay and receive the change, no need to used bank notes... but... which coins do I have to use if I do not understand them?


Curious... but really. And it was the coin they will use on his holidays more often... and never the number...



P.S. Last one hundred pesetas coins made two years before Euro had written the number instead of the name...
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea  
Old July 3rd, 2011, 07:17 PM   #444
DanielFigFoz
Registered User
 
DanielFigFoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 4,428
Likes (Received): 892

I know, but between Portugal and Spain its not that bad (the singage of "Portugal and "Espanha"), there aren't actually that many suitable crossings to be honest, so you either have to make your choice very far from the border, or after the border

There are 5 motorway crossings, and 16 national road crossings.
DanielFigFoz no está en línea  
Old July 3rd, 2011, 09:00 PM   #445
Verso
Islander
 
Verso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ljubljana
Posts: 22,087
Likes (Received): 4749

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxx☢Power View Post
This is another ridiculous and useless practice, putting the name of countries on signs, often completely by itself instead of the cities the road leads to. Unless you're going to Liechtenstein or San Marino, that doesn't help an awful lot because your destination is a particular city inside that country.
It's useless from afar, but when you're close to the border, it's ok, if there's just one road to that country.
Verso no está en línea  
Old July 3rd, 2011, 09:02 PM   #446
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,760

In Spain, in my opinion, direction signals procedure is horrible.

Mainly they indicate locations depending on the administrative importance instead of important or relevant crossings.

In the case of international borders they indicate the country...
The "record" (it doesn't exist today but still can be seen at google street view) is that just before the Somport Tunnel they indicate "France by tunnel" and "France by Somport".
Today they indicate "Pau" and "Urdos".

In the French side always they have indicated "Saragosse" (Zaragoza) and sometimes "Huesca" too.

Zaragoza has a frienship with three cities in the world (indicated in some entrances on the city), one of them... Pau.
At Pau, national roads indicate direction "Saragosse". Not Oloron, nor Urdos, nor Somport, nor... but only Saragosse. Sometimes "Saragosse - Oloron", "Saragosse - Huesca", "Saragosse - XX".

You enter in Spain and direction "Zaragoza" and distances dissapear totally. They indicate direction "Jaca". Later direction "Huesca" and only when crossing Huesca they indicate direction Zaragoza.

Way back... At Zaragoza roads indicate Huesca. Later... Pamplona and at Jaca they indicate two directions: Pamplona and "Francia". Nothing else.


But... at least since some years ago, at Zaragoza (signals depending of the town, not of the traffic authority), streets that go north are indicated as "Huesca - Pau". I think it is one of the few international indications I have seen at Spain (except near borders).

Another detail... going from Lleida to the country of Andorra the road depends from a different administration (catalan autonomous government). Distance to "Andorra" is indicated often... but it is not the distance to the city of "Andorra la vella". Instead is the distance to the border to the country of Andorra (people who know it... just add 10 km that are those between border and that country capital).
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea  
Old July 4th, 2011, 10:16 AM   #447
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
That extreme example notwithstanding, my preference is for signing cities where a different language is spoken in both the language of the city and the language of the country or area you're in. If you really need to show all those destinations, it can be done differently. (I don't think you do need to show all of them. At that point, for example, you could live without the pull-through: as far as I can tell it's not a freeway-to-freeway interchange.) And break it up. A larger sign, or sign assembly, with maybe a vertical panel for the three arrows, and a separate horizontal panel for each one (lining up with the appropriate arrow on the vertical panel) with just the destinations served by that turn, and make those signs large enough to have some empty space around the names, so that you're not trying to read a wall of text at speed. Post it several times (as I assume is standard practice) - at 2 km, 1 km.... - and it becomes manageable.

In any case the area in question is a "facilities" area - where the second language is legally required to be accommodated - so even the local destinations (Mouscron/Moeskroen....) have two names, so it's unavoidable for those destinations. We could argue about whether Paris needs to be posted in Dutch as well as French.

Just my opinion....

EDIT: For that matter, even if you do need a pull-through, it doesn't need to have four destinations (in two languages each). Just a freeway symbol and maybe the route number would be enough to prevent any through traffic from taking the exit by mistake.
Belgium has such a strange system. You got Flanders where they speak Dutch or Flemish. French in Walloon (and German near the border). And French and Dutch/Flemish in Brussels.

Belgian law insists that Belgian towns and city's should be displayed in the local language only. Foreign places may be displayed in both languages. Hence Parijs (Paris) and Rijsel (Lille) But Doornik is Doornik and not Tournai if signposted in Flanders.

There are some exceptions. Moeskroen / Mouscron is in Walloon, and therefor a French speaking town. It lies right on the border with France and Flanders. Therefor it's a facility town. All council workers must speak both languages, and signs must be displayed in both French and Dutch.

Language laws are very strict in Belgium. Local language only. This has gone to an extent, that they even crossed the O out of Luxembourg on the Flemish side of the Brussels ring. It now says Luxemb urg....

Coming from Gent wanting to go to Liege in Walloon, drivers must follow signs for Luik. There are no signs for Liege, and the fact that the entire stretch of the Brussels ringroad is in Flanders, is reason enough to display local language only. Even though Brussels has two languages. Once you get off the Brussels ringroad, you continue folllowing sign for Luik. Then you enter Walloon, and time to follow Liege. Then the motorway goes back into Flanders for a few km, and you're on your way to Luik again, until you enter Walloon for the second time.

Childish!

Why can't they take an example to Switzerland, where they display everything in the language of the destination only...
Road_UK no está en línea  
Old July 4th, 2011, 12:42 PM   #448
Thermo
Registered User
 
Thermo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Antwerp
Posts: 4,749
Likes (Received): 4187

I completely agree. If I'm not mistaken there was a proposal a few years ago to only use the language of the destination but don't know what happened to that.

It's ridiculous we have this system now, knowing that Belgium is a 'transit' country with lots of foreign drivers who don't understand the difference between 'Liège' and 'Luik' or 'Anvers' and 'Antwerpen'....
Thermo no está en línea  
Old July 4th, 2011, 01:33 PM   #449
DanielFigFoz
Registered User
 
DanielFigFoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 4,428
Likes (Received): 892

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Language laws are very strict in Belgium. Local language only. This has gone to an extent, that they even crossed the O out of Luxembourg on the Flemish side of the Brussels ring. It now says Luxemb urg....


I thought that was quite funny.
DanielFigFoz no está en línea  
Old July 4th, 2011, 02:59 PM   #450
aswnl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: near Amsterdam (NL)
Posts: 932
Likes (Received): 84

Letzebürg would be nice...
aswnl no está en línea  
Old July 4th, 2011, 11:32 PM   #451
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,801
Likes (Received): 615

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Language laws are very strict in Belgium. Local language only. This has gone to an extent, that they even crossed the O out of Luxembourg on the Flemish side of the Brussels ring. It now says Luxemb urg.
That kind of legislation is most often politics and the results of politics are most often random.

The system in Finland is similar to what Belgium has invented, but perhaps even more complicated. Most of the country is monolingual Finnish but there are Swedish speaking areas on the southern and western coasts. The local language is determined at the level of municipalities. The country is divided into 336 municipalities, each falling into one of these categories:

- monolingual Finnish: 287 of total 336
- monolingual Swedish: 19 (only 3 on the mainland; the remaining ones reside on Åland islands which are Swedish by constitution)
- bilingual Finnish/Swedish (Finnish majority): 18
- bilingual Swedish/Finnish: 12

The basic rule is simple: The language of the sign is the language of the municipality the sign is located in. The bilingual signs show the majority language on top.

It is not forbidden to show both languages on monolingual areas. For example in Luoto/Larsmo, almost every sign is Swedish only. If something is forbidden, that sign, however, is in Finnish, too.

One important exception applies: On main roads (number less than 100) and on motorways on a monolingual area, the direction signs display both Finnish and Swedish name if the destination is monolingual or bilingual of the opposite language. That applies to the direction signs only. The distance signs follow the main rule.

In addition, there are people in the far north speaking the Sami language. That language is displayed as the second language. As the spelling of Sami varies across dialects, the same place may be written in several ways.

The number of municipalities has decreased heavily due to consolidation. The has been cases were a monolingual area has turned a bilingual one after being merged to a bilingual municipality. For example, the municipality of Ullava was merged in 2009 to the city of Kokkola. As Kokkola is bilingual Finnish/Swedish, all the monolingual signs un Ullava will be changed to bilingual ones even if there are only 7 Swedish-speaking inhabitants.

The strict principle sometimes lead to funny arrangements. The junction of roads 3/8/18 and 673 is located close to the border of Vaasa (Finnish/Swedish) and Mustasaari (Swedish/Finnish). The first advance sign (1000 metres prior to the exit, in Vaasa) is Finnish/Swedish, but the second one (500 metres) is Swedish/Finnish, because it is located in Mustasaari.
MattiG no está en línea  
Old July 4th, 2011, 11:40 PM   #452
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,760

At Spain the criteria is the following:

Spanish is the official language for all the country and some regions have a second official language. In those regions it is not their language which is official but both of them are official.

Official town names are chosen by regional governments (which are totally autonomous from Spanish government). In some regions, they have decided to use the name in its language as official and... becomes the official name for all the country.
In the case of Basque country and north of Navarra, both governments decided to use bilingual names. This is the two names together as official name.

Obviously anyone use the name of the town depending of the language he uses but the official... is the official.

The Spanish ministery uses always the official name for any signal. This is... in Spanish in most of regions, in regional languages in some regions and in "Basque-Spanish" in two regions.

So then:

- There are some cases where bilingual names appear on signals (it is important to remark that there are some cities which names absolute different in one and the another language)

- It could be strange... but official name is used even if it is in one regional language and the signal is in some place where that language it is not official (and unknown by citizens). It is thrue that names are very similar but not the same.
And it is thrue that all of those cities have translation into Spanish and... Spanish is also official there.

Comming from France, for example it is surprising that appears the distance to the city of "Gerone" (written in French) and, after crossing the border it appears the distance to "Girona" (written in Catalan).
Distance to "Gerona" (name in Spanish) never appears.
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea  
Old July 4th, 2011, 11:52 PM   #453
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post

The basic rule is simple: The language of the sign is the language of the municipality the sign is located in. The bilingual signs show the majority language on top.
Same as in Wales. In South-Wales between Newport and Swansea, not even a dog would consider barking in Welsh, and on the bilingual road signs, they put English before Welsh. In the rest of Wales - English border excepted - they put the Welsh name before the English one.
Road_UK no está en línea  
Old July 5th, 2011, 12:12 AM   #454
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,760

Are you meaning about text on signals or name or towns in signals?
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea  
Old July 5th, 2011, 12:18 AM   #455
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Are you meaning about text on signals or name or towns in signals?
I meant names and towns, but it applies to both.
Road_UK no está en línea  
Old July 5th, 2011, 12:43 AM   #456
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,760

In the case I mentioned before is something similar as if at Wales any English town may be mentioned only in English on signals but any Wells town may be mentioned only in Wells in England.

One name only. Short and easy but... sometimes it is strange to read one word in a different language outside that zone.
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea  
Old July 5th, 2011, 04:11 PM   #457
Verso
Islander
 
Verso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ljubljana
Posts: 22,087
Likes (Received): 4749

http://maps.google.si/?ll=45.58314,1...,,0,10.97&z=15

Can't believe to see "Trst" signed in Italy. Let me see, if I can find "Benetke".
Verso no está en línea  
Old July 5th, 2011, 04:45 PM   #458
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,490
Likes (Received): 2102

San Dorligo della Valle is an Italian town with majority of Slovenian speakers, so it's not so strange...
g.spinoza está en línea ahora  
Old July 5th, 2011, 04:56 PM   #459
hofburg
middle lane hogger
 
hofburg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Nova Gorica
Posts: 3,270
Likes (Received): 464

you're too much on street view today, Verso.
hofburg no está en línea  
Old July 9th, 2011, 12:41 AM   #460
Daviedoff
Belgian road driver
 
Daviedoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Sluis (Zeeuws-Vlaanderen)
Posts: 211
Likes (Received): 29

Zeebrugge, Belgium, nearby the harbour:
Daviedoff no está en línea  


Closed Thread

Tags
autobahn, motorways, signage

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium