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Old April 28th, 2011, 05:28 PM   #201
Triple C
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Google Maps is getting silly, it shows the whole Turkish D-400 road also labelled as E-90! (with its actual route.)
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Old April 29th, 2011, 06:28 AM   #202
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I know not all E roads are freeway, but are the non freeways ones generally along routes that are planned to be upgraded? Are E-10's the exception to the rule? What's what's the point of putting an E-number on a road like that in middle of East Jesus in the first place?
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Old April 29th, 2011, 10:16 AM   #203
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No, there is usually no plan to upgrade them. E-roads follow illogic paths (when possible involving motorways) that no one would follow, like the E25. No one would go from The Netherlands to Sicily via Corsica and Sardinia, using three ferries and running on non-motorway roads.
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Old April 29th, 2011, 10:20 AM   #204
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The E-numbering system is a poor attempt at creating a non-existent grid network.
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Old April 29th, 2011, 10:39 AM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
No, there is usually no plan to upgrade them. E-roads follow illogic paths (when possible involving motorways) that no one would follow, like the E25. No one would go from The Netherlands to Sicily via Corsica and Sardinia, using three ferries and running on non-motorway roads.
I don't think E numbers are meant to be assigned to routes to follow in their entirety. I think it's just an attempt to systematize a road grid that isn't there yet, as Chris said. In fact it seems they were created as shortest possible path as the crow flies.
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Old April 29th, 2011, 11:21 AM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
No, there is usually no plan to upgrade them. E-roads follow illogic paths (when possible involving motorways) that no one would follow, like the E25. No one would go from The Netherlands to Sicily via Corsica and Sardinia, using three ferries and running on non-motorway roads.
That is brilliant. You sir have made my day.
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Old April 29th, 2011, 11:22 AM   #207
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I can name a few other grid-based numbering systems that are not really laid out in a grid. US Interstates also run askew every now and then. To me, the issue highlighted by Coccodrillo is the larger one. On top of that, large parts of the Western European road network come closer to a grid than you think. The German network is very grid-based, large parts of the Dutch and French networks can also be seen as a grid.

Problem is, however, that the E-network does not follow that grid. There is no E15 that runs down from Calais to Barcelona via Clermont-Ferrand, there is no E25 that runs down from Amsterdam to Marseille. And who ever brought up to idea to connect Amsterdam and Rome via one E-route, despite being 5 degrees apart?

As long as E-routes follow existing axes for their larger part, I think that one would be forgiven for the odd TOTSO and for not always forming a perfect grid. But the current E-routes are neither a problem grid nor aligned to main arteries. Even leaving aside those ferries into Sicily, the E25 follows a route that nobody will ever take between The Netherlands and Genova. The E45 between Bologna and Roma is bloody ridiculous ! All added value of route numbering is gone if you can neither attach your road numbers to a certain route nor to cardinal directions.

I think that I can do a lot better than what UNECE did in 1975 (as much as I have an advantage, namely the fact that the Western European grid has developed strongly since 1975). I am in the process of developing a form of E-numbering that is grid-based and respects the major European arteries and input is always welcome.

My work in progress (areas north of The Netherlands and East of Poland are still under consideration) can be found at public maps in Google:
E1-25 odd
E27-55 odd
E30-E58 even
E60-98 even
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Old April 30th, 2011, 02:24 AM   #208
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The "E23" in Norway is all over the place... and winter-closed....?
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Old April 30th, 2011, 02:34 AM   #209
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There are more winter closed E-roads. E008 is one of them.

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Old April 30th, 2011, 09:31 AM   #210
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M41 Tajikistan That may also be the highest E-road, it exceeds 4100 meters.
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Old April 30th, 2011, 10:19 AM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
The "E23" in Norway is all over the place... and winter-closed....?
My E23 is supposed to track the current E39. More a change in numbering than the introduction of a new road into the system. But speaking of it, would it be worth considering removing that E23 / E39 for a lack of international interest?

EDIT: E23 is Norway now longer exists (for lack of international interest). E23 is now Brussels - Luxembourg, which in my previous plan formed one route together with Luxembourg - Neunkirchen. Separating the two saves a rather large duplex.
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Old April 30th, 2011, 01:06 PM   #212
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I like the idea for extend the E07 all the way down to Valencia (It has been mistakenly signed down to kmpost 251 of A-23). Can you also extend it up to Bourdeaux? They have signed the E07 along the A65.

BTW you have 2 E11s paralleling! (One of them is more or less current E07) I would make the eastern one an extension of your proposed E13, so I will have the European route of the bad luck running near home .
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Old April 30th, 2011, 02:17 PM   #213
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Are there really serious plans to extend the E7 down to Valencia and up to Bourdeaux? Or is it just a few who have ideas about this? I think the E7 is a quite short E-road for the moment. Only 250 km.
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Old April 30th, 2011, 03:32 PM   #214
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No, they aren't serious plans, only runs from Zaragoza to Pau. However, they have mistakenly signed it up to Langon and down to the kmpost 251 of the A-23 (some 30 km South of Zaragoza).
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Old April 30th, 2011, 03:38 PM   #215
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The A65 between Pau and Langon is already signposted as E7 (not E07). Once you reach Langon, you are already quite close to Bordeaux. However, I have not found any official record of an extension of the E07 to either Bordeaux or Valencia.

I'm not sure whether I would be in favour of such an extension. On the one hand, Pau and Huesca are strange towns to connect with an E-route. Termini at Bordeaux and Valencia appear to be more logical. But on the other hand, motorists driving between these two cities would in principle take the route via Bayonne and Pamplona. The route via the E07 is 30 kilometers shorter, but is partially at non-motorway standard and will remain so for quite some time to come. Even if completed, I doubt whether it will be a quicker route in light of its mountain sections. Extending the current E09 (E13 in my numbering) to Valencia faces more or less the same problem. Nobody would ever drive from Paris to Valencia via Toulouse and the Somport.

It is for that reason that I have solved my duplication of E11 by simply taking out Pau - Huesca - Valencia from the E-route network. Sorry about your bad luck route, CNGL
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Old April 30th, 2011, 03:48 PM   #216
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I want a Euroroute through Huesca!!!
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Old April 30th, 2011, 05:03 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGL View Post
No, they aren't serious plans, only runs from Zaragoza to Pau. However, they have mistakenly signed it up to Langon and down to the kmpost 251 of the A-23 (some 30 km South of Zaragoza).
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
The A65 between Pau and Langon is already signposted as E7 (not E07). Once you reach Langon, you are already quite close to Bordeaux. However, I have not found any official record of an extension of the E07 to either Bordeaux or Valencia.

I'm not sure whether I would be in favour of such an extension. On the one hand, Pau and Huesca are strange towns to connect with an E-route. Termini at Bordeaux and Valencia appear to be more logical. But on the other hand, motorists driving between these two cities would in principle take the route via Bayonne and Pamplona. The route via the E07 is 30 kilometers shorter, but is partially at non-motorway standard and will remain so for quite some time to come. Even if completed, I doubt whether it will be a quicker route in light of its mountain sections. Extending the current E09 (E13 in my numbering) to Valencia faces more or less the same problem. Nobody would ever drive from Paris to Valencia via Toulouse and the Somport.

It is for that reason that I have solved my duplication of E11 by simply taking out Pau - Huesca - Valencia from the E-route network. Sorry about your bad luck route, CNGL
I'm provoked by CNGL's use of the word "mistakenly" for the posting of the E7 along the A65, and by Pino's use of the term "official record" to ask a question I've been wondering about for some time:

If - like me - you're trying to figure out from a distance the geography of Europe's road system (and it's France and Belgium that interest me the most), you'll perhaps be struck by the discrepancies in the routing of the European routes. Some examples: (1) most maps from publishers other than the IGN route the E5, E15 and E50, in the Paris area, all the way to the Périphérique, although not actually along it - they'll reach it and pick up on the other side of the city; Google Maps, perhaps assuming they shouldn't be interrupted, routes them around the Périphérique; but IGN maps mostly keep them away from the city and use the Francilienne. (2) Some IGN maps route the E21, between Dijon and the A40, over the A39; others use the A31, A6 and A40. (3) Photos I've seen of the signage mark the E15 around Lyon using the A46, but most if not all maps run it through the city using the A6 and A7. And I could bore you with more if I had time.

My question is, is there an official answer to this sort of question? All I've ever come up with is general routings "E19: Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam" and I sort of assumed that some treaty laid out the system like that in general and left precise routings up to the individual countries. That's it, I gues....
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Old April 30th, 2011, 06:31 PM   #218
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There is indeed a treaty, namely the European Agreement on Main International Traffic Arteries (AGR) of 15 November 1975. People discussing E-routes will mostly refer to it as the Geneva Convention. You can find it via http://live.unece.org/trans/conventn/legalinst.html#2

The paths of the various E-routes are laid down in an Annex to the Convention. The Convention provides for mechanism to change the Annex without needing to go through a full ratification process. This has allowed the Convention to more or less track developments in the road networks of the various countries involved. As you already suspected, however, the annex is not very precise about the exact path of routes. The French path of the E15, for one, is described as Calais - Paris - Lyon - Orange - Narbonne - Gerona. That description leaves open how the E15 is routed around Paris and Lyon, and you could even choose to route Calais - Paris via the A16 and via the A26-A1 (the latter is signposted). On that point, the only thing that mapmakers can do is to rely on the signs on the ground. Which in many cases is inconsistent, possibly also because signmakers don't really bother. And of course, you have to wonder whether mapmakers bother either. It often takes ages before a change in a route number or an exit number makes it onto maps.

So against that background, the situation at Paris is as unclear as you describe it. E-route shields are intermittant at best, even at major intersections. In other words, it's a mapmaker's guess. Around Lyon, I suspect that the intention is to route E15 via the A46. Without any doubt, however, there are still many E15 signs on the A6-A7 route, because they pre-date the A46 or were placed after opening without the sign maker checking whether it was appropriate at all to use the same numbers as on the old sign.

The E07 North of Pau suggests to me that road owners do bother. I think that the owner of the newly built A65 saw signposting the road as E07 as a good bit of promotion of the road as an international artery. And luck had it that it could "borrow" an E-number that terminated nearby. They will likely not care whether or not the French government and UNECE follow the lead one day. The E21 is the opposite scenario. If APRR had bothered about E-numbers, they would certaintly have worked out at opening of the A39 that it was preferable to route the E21 over that new route. But apparently they did not, so the signs still show a E21 via Macon.
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Old April 30th, 2011, 08:28 PM   #219
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Thanks for that

What remains unclear to me is whether anyone at the national level (in France, but other people may be interested in other countries) has made this sort of decision - by which I mean official determinations of exact routings. I know that, for Belgium, the Walloon Region has on its website a map of the E-routes which is clear enough on this sort of thing. But I've never seen anything like that for the rest of Belgium or for France. (And I guess we can't take the IGN's maps as official just because it's a government agency...?) By the way, as far as Belgium is concerned, the most unclear thing would be whether the E40 goes around the Ring or into Brussels; going around the Ring would make sense to me but maybe that's because I'm an American; plenty of maps show it running to the end of the A10, disappearing, then reappearing at the beginning of the A3....

Thanks again.
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Old April 30th, 2011, 08:52 PM   #220
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I think that this type of decision is taken at the national level, obviously with cross-border cooperation in border regions. Exact routing and signposting is not really UNECE's core-competence anyway. As far as I understand, they take a rather passive role when it comes to proposals for rerouting (e.g. extending E07 into Bordeaux and Valencia). As long as the countries involved agree, I understand that they will only check for consistency with the principles of the Convention. For reroutings affecting one country only (e.g. the E6 in Norway, where I understand that a rerouting via Rv3 is under consideration) it should thus mainly be a one-country decision coupled with some administrative hassle.

As far as Belgium is concerned, again the Convention does not clarify. The Antwerp and Brussels ring roads are only signposted as R0, R1 and R2 and the E-numbers only appear as routes that you will come across later on. But on the other hand, the signs do not show the continuation of any E-road into town either. Except for E411, which terminates in Brussels. It's a strange form of signposting a route, but well. In Liège, E40 and E42 are continued on the ring road, but E25 is not. On other ring roads, I am not aware of any disruption.
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