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Old June 9th, 2011, 02:54 PM   #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
So the Italian way is agreeing to the change and then leaving all as it was before, while the Swedish way is disagreeing to the change and then leaving all as it was before.
This is not the whole truth.

In the old system, there were eight E roads in Sweden: E3, E4, E6, E14, E18, E66, E75, and E79. The E4, E6, and E18 were retained, but the remaining ones were renumbered and/or rerouted.

The basic reason for Norway and Sweden to resist the renewed system was the E roads having no national number. As the E4 crosses the whole Sweden, and E6 does the same in Norway, the change would have implied a major change to the the national numbering system, too. Of course, the countries wanted to keep their 'good' small numbers, too.
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Old June 9th, 2011, 03:01 PM   #242
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=-Pino-;79315154, Besides, the E4 in Sweden is a bit of an odd story. It was originally supposed to be part of E55, but the Swedes liked the old number and eventually got things their way, i.e. they could retain E4 and E55 now stops pretty much on the Swedish border.
The E55 stops in the water (on the 25 min ferry)between Helsingör-Helsingborg.

Sweden is like the UK a "off-continental" country and less affected by the traffic from other continental countries, so I don't see the keeping of E4 in favor of the E55 as a major setback. The UK does probably not like E-marked roads because of their left-hand traffic ??

Actually I think the whole E-road numbering is a bit overestimated. In Sweden only the E4 south of Stockhom, E6 and E20 are of main importance for international traffic.

Such roads as the E10, E12, E22, E65 and E45 through sweden are of less use internationally, at least the E45 should take back it's old national road 45 name again. It does not meet the E-road standard.

The fractional norwegian E39 is a joke especially as a E-road. You have to do 9 short ferry-tours to complete it.


The E75 from Norway-Finland to Greece should at least be rerouted through the Baltics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
This is not the whole truth.

In the old system, there were eight E roads in Sweden: E3, E4, E6, E14, E18, E66, E75, and E79. The E4, E6, and E18 were retained, but the remaining ones were renumbered and/or rerouted.

The basic reason for Norway and Sweden to resist the renewed system was the E roads having no national number. As the E4 crosses the whole Sweden, and E6 does the same in Norway, the change would have implied a major change to the the national numbering system, too. Of course, the countries wanted to keep their 'good' small numbers, too.
also because of high costs for renumbering of the long E4 road
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Old June 9th, 2011, 03:49 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
In the old system, there were eight E roads in Sweden: E3, E4, E6, E14, E18, E66, E75, and E79. The E4, E6, and E18 were retained, but the remaining ones were renumbered and/or rerouted.
E14? Stjørdal - Sundsvall.

4 Euroroads combined (Liège):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wimpie View Post
Another strange thing: E45 ends at the Finish border in the middle of Muonio river. The 800m connecting road to E8 in Kaaresuvanto is Regionalväg 959. The short road is only signed "Finland" at the Swedish side and "Sverige" on the Finish side...
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Old June 9th, 2011, 04:37 PM   #244
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That sign in Belgium actually isn't a four-way multiplex (a "quadriplex"?), just four numbers on one sign. Belgium (as far as I can tell from the other side of the Atlantic) has a habit of associating E-numbers with their destinations. That sign is indeed on the E25, E40 and E42, but not the E313. That "Anvers E313" means "Antwerp (Anvers is the French version) via the E313" - the E313 actually crosses the E25/40/42:

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie...,0.109692&z=13

(The E25's missing from this map, at least at the zoom level I'm looking at - Google has it running through Liège, off of the freeways, along old roads along the river. But the Walloon region is one entity that seems to have official answers: http://carto-inter.met.wallonie.be/d...trans-européen Zoom in on Liège.)
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Old June 9th, 2011, 05:30 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
E14? Stjørdal - Sundsvall.

4 Euroroads combined (Liège):


Another strange thing: E45 ends at the Finish border in the middle of Muonio river. The 800m connecting road to E8 in Kaaresuvanto is Regionalväg 959. The short road is only signed "Finland" at the Swedish side and "Sverige" on the Finish side...
I see, the bridge over the Tornio river is probably not wide enough for E-road standard, so the E45 has to end in Karesuando and not in Karesuvanto.


But they are planning to extend E45 to Alta, Finnmark-Norway. Is there any traffic worth mentioning to Alta? Is the harbour there receiving incomming goods that have to be transported further south ?

Is there anyone who ever have travelled from Sicily to Karesuando on the E45or even to Fredrikshavn?

Do they even have a sign in Sicily of a road called E45? or do they only use A-letters.

I think it's more natural to end the E45 in Fredrikshavn, at some sections in sweden the E45 is still marked as road 45 only.

They should really stop this renumbering of roads because it's of no use and it is the motorists that have to pay for it.
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Old June 9th, 2011, 06:59 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
E14? Stjørdal - Sundsvall.
No. Malmö-Ystad.
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Old June 9th, 2011, 09:13 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NordicNerd
In Sweden only the E4 south of Stockhom, E6 and E20 are of main importance for international traffic.
I'd agree on the E4. Continuing the number E4 up North doesn't hurt anybody though. E20 follows a bit of a strange route between Oslo and Göteborg, and I would add Oslo - Stockholm as a route of international importance. The even numbers further to the North are a bit of a strange story. As small as the number of users is, you would expect something of an East-West connector every now and then, even if it runs through sparsely populated country. However, ten East-West routes before you even make it to Stockholm is a bit over the top to me.

Quote:
Do they even have a sign in Sicily of a road called E45?
E-numbers are signposted quite consistently on Italian motorways (albeit in a fashion that is difficult to read) and the E45 on Sicily is not an exception. See for instance here.

Quote:
They should really stop this renumbering of roads because it's of no use and it is the motorists that have to pay for it.
Costs are very much overseeable, but I agree on the principle. Roads like the E45 and the E18 are being extended mainly to please regions that want to be more visible or think that they can attract more tourists by being on an E-route. If only they embarked on re-numberings to remove the various existing stupidities from the system ...
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Old June 10th, 2011, 12:43 AM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
Rerouting E6 to Rv3? First i hear of it, certainly a good idea tough! I believe i've read signs for E16 extension will appear first during the summer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Suggests that Wikipedia is wrong then. Or Google Translate, which gave me a hand in trying to understand the Norwegian text.
Not, it is not wrong. A renumbering has been suggested many times på a number of people. It has also been proposed at the annual meeting of one of our national political parties recently. However, this does not mean that it is likely to happen soon. Road politics in Norway is all about (local) politics and tactics and little about common sense and strategy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
As much as I look at this from a distance, the most direct Oslo - Trondheim route runs via Rv3 and not via the E6. So from that perspective, rerouting appears sensible. Other than the cost burden of doing so, is there anything that should stand in the way of E6 being rerouted via Rv3?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
E6 isn't supposed to be the shortest route for all travels. Imagine the shortest route to Kirkenes from Oslo, Trondheim or even Alta... But to be the backbone of road transportation withinn Norway so it connects with important crosscountry routes and interior towns. I think there should be a sign pointing to Trondheim/Oslo and number of kilometers when Rv3 meets E6 tough. Why the northern ferry at Tysfjord is being used instead of the Rv827 is more puzzling...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjello0 View Post
The purpose of the main European Routes is supposed to be a network between the most important links in Europe and it's countries. Going north from Oslo the only important link in a European perspective is Trondheim. Even in a national perspective I feel the only really important link is Trondheim.

E 136 should have been extended to Hamar or perhaps even Oslo using Rv 4.

The stretch Ulsberg - Dombås pretty much only has regional traffic. And should be renamed Riksvei XX.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxx☢Power View Post
The backbone argument doesn't really hold. There's nothing remotely important anywhere near the E6 between where Rv3 leaves and joins it. Ålesund, Molde and Kristiansund are already quite the detour, the E6 doesn't serve these towns.
How could I miss this incredibly important debate? After all, I have been there before.....

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=333

Seriously, I really don't understand why they at least cannot put up a sign. Today you must really pay attention to spot the one and only "Veier til Trondheim" information board at a rest area when coming from the south. From the northern side, there is nothing like that at all. And, I get really irritated each time the Gudbrandsdal people claim that they need a better road (which I agree to) because the E6 is the main road between Oslo and Trondheim. The latter claim is in fact quite far from the truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
E14? Stjørdal - Sundsvall.
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
No. Malmö-Ystad.
The current E14 used to be called E75, at least between (Trondheim) Stjørdal and Sundsvall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
TThe fractional norwegian E39 is a joke especially as a E-road. You have to do 9 short ferry-tours to complete it.
Careful now, there is currently 8, and will soon be "only" 7, and vegvesenet has just started a study....


Regarding the international E-roads to UK etc, I guess they were more relevant before, when there were more international ferry lines running. The last one between Norway and UK stopped operating just a few years ago.
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Last edited by 54°26′S 3°24′E; June 10th, 2011 at 01:55 AM.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 03:19 AM   #249
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Anyone noticed Google Maps' E-90 bug on Turkey?
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Old June 10th, 2011, 03:39 AM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
The E55 stops in the water (on the 25 min ferry)between Helsingör-Helsingborg.

Sweden is like the UK a "off-continental" country and less affected by the traffic from other continental countries, so I don't see the keeping of E4 in favor of the E55 as a major setback. The UK does probably not like E-marked roads because of their left-hand traffic ??
The UK does not like or use E-numbering because it's unnecessary, pointless and irrelevant.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 07:41 AM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
The current E14 used to be called E75, at least between (Trondheim) Stjørdal and Sundsvall.
Yes. And the current E65 Malmö-Ystad was E14.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
Regarding the international E-roads to UK etc, I guess they were more relevant before, when there were more international ferry lines running. The last one between Norway and UK stopped operating just a few years ago.
The key desing idea was not to create contiguous routes but a grid similar to the interstate roads in the US. Because of the geograhical characteristics of Europe, the result is not absolutely successful.

On the E01, there is gap of 950 kilometers from Ireland to nortwestern Spain. No ferry has run this leg. The same applies to the E16: I wonder if there ever has been a ferry route from Edingburgh to Bergen.

There was a gap of 800 km on the E75 since early 1990's after the ferry route Helsinki-Gdansk was closed. The gap was closed in 2009, when Finnlines begun to operate a ferry line Helsinki-Gdynia.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 09:21 AM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
,
The key desing idea was not to create contiguous routes but a grid similar to the interstate roads in the US. Because of the geograhical characteristics of Europe, the result is not absolutely successful..
Strange. In continental countries like Germany, France and Benelux where land is formed more like a block and not like peninsulas and islands E-roads are of less importance as they tend to use the A-letters insted. But in isolated Scandinavia cut of by bays and fjords we have big clearly marked E-signed roads often leading to sparsely populated nowhere-land.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
,
On the E01, there is gap of 950 kilometers from Ireland to nortwestern Spain. No ferry has run this leg. The same applies to the E16: I wonder if there ever has been a ferry route from Edingburgh to Bergen..
those E-roads should be terminated, but if there is a ferry the E-road makes at least some sense.

There used to be lots of ferries to Brittain but they couldn't compete with budget airlines so they went bankrupt. An example is Göteborg-Newcastle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
There was a gap of 800 km on the E75 since early 1990's after the ferry route Helsinki-Gdansk was closed. The gap was closed in 2009, when Finnlines begun to operate a ferry line Helsinki-Gdynia.
the E75 should use the Helsinki-Tallinn ferry and then continue through the Baltics, that is the quickest route to the continent.

So what is the difference between the ports Gdansk and Gdynia? Is Gdynia a better alternative for carferries ?

Last edited by NordikNerd; June 10th, 2011 at 09:44 AM.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 09:58 PM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
Strange. In continental countries like Germany, France and Benelux where land is formed more like a block and not like peninsulas and islands E-roads are of less importance as they tend to use the A-letters insted. But in isolated Scandinavia cut of by bays and fjords we have big clearly marked E-signed roads often leading to sparsely populated nowhere-land.
In Scandinavia, the E-routes are the most important routes in the network, which logically translates into E-status. They may run through nowhere-land, they may not be at motorway status for lengthy parts, they may even involve ferries, but they are by far the most important route in the areas through which they run.

In countries like Germany, France and the Netherlands, on the other hand, you see many roads at an equal motorway standard that also have an equal level of importance. Naming some of them Exx and some of them Axx is difficult to sell, as you want route numbers to track the expectations of the motorist as much as possible. So the E-number then takes second spot (or completely disappears) and a national number takes precedence. In that domestic number area called Western Europe, of course Belgium stands out. You can indeed choose against national motorway numbers and in favour of E-numbers, but then you have to do so in the Belgian way. So then you have to refrain from calling your motorways A4, A8 and A13 yet instead use "difficult" numbers like E411, E429 and E313. To me, it is hardly surprising that the vast majority of Western European countries opted against Belgium ...
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Old June 10th, 2011, 10:50 PM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
In Scandinavia, the E-routes are the most important routes in the network, which logically translates into E-status. They may run through nowhere-land, they may not be at motorway status for lengthy parts, they may even involve ferries, but they are by far the most important route in the areas through which they run.
You are right, there are only 4 motorways in Sweden which are not E-roads

They are:

national roads 40,73
local roads 222, 158

Those are mainly local suburban motorways around Stockholm & Göteborg.
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Old June 11th, 2011, 02:06 AM   #255
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Quote:
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....To me, it is hardly surprising that the vast majority of Western European countries opted against Belgium ...
Poor Belgium!

(I'm joking. I like the country; your wording just struck me.

But back on topic, I do find it...well, it's none of my business, but the Belgian A-numbering system does have an internal logic to it, so it just seems strange that they ignore most of it. Posting both sets of numbers is what most of their neighbors do and it would at least have the advantage of matching what the motorist will see on their maps. (The person who's made the mistake of committing to memory that he should use the A3 and A2 to get from Brussels to Diest might miss his turn at Heverlee....))
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Old June 11th, 2011, 11:51 AM   #256
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Just some 'strange allocations' of E-roads in Greece:

E65 follows a totally illogical route. Anybody that might go from Niki (MK border) up to Kalamata would never go via NR3, A27, NR3, NR27, NR48, A8 and A7. He would rather follow the NR3, A27, NR3, A1, NR3 or A6, A8, A7 route. The allocation Lamia - Antirrio - Korinthos - Kalamata is useless. And things will get worse when the A3 opens. Then the Niki - Lamia part will have been diverted via NR3, A27, A2, A3 for yet another detour.

E75 leaves A1 at Agios Athanasios, follows NR2 to Thessaloniki and comes back to the A1 (A1/A2 multiplex actually). Of course anybody wishing to go from Evzonoi to Athens would go straight ahead on the A1. The NR2 link to Thessaloniki could be an extension of the E86.

Also I cannot understand why E92 starts at Igoumenitsa and follows exactly the same route with E90 (via the A2) for too long without any purpose; it could have started near Metsovo where NR6 leads towards Trikala (eventually it could go on the A2/A3 interchange).

And finally I cannot understand why E951 goes all the way up to Agrinio or even Mesologgi (I am not sure); it follows the same route with E55 south of Amfilohia. E951 could be running just form Ioannina up to Amfilohia (NR42) and eventually up to the proposed A5/A52 interchange where it will be the next meeting point with the E55.
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Old June 11th, 2011, 11:58 AM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
You are right, there are only 4 motorways in Sweden which are not E-roads

They are:

national roads 40,73
local roads 222, 158

Those are mainly local suburban motorways around Stockholm & Göteborg.
You forgot National road 80 and local road 265 (Norrortsleden)...
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Old June 11th, 2011, 12:36 PM   #258
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Quote:
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You are right, there are only 4 motorways in Sweden which are not E-roads. (...) Those are mainly local suburban motorways around Stockholm & Göteborg.
And that in itself is a (more or less) valid reason to place them into a different class of roads. The distinction then is not between motorways and non-motorways, as you see in the Western European countries, but between regional interest and national/European interest. I guess that this puts Sweden close to the US, where there are of course lots of motorways outside the Interstate system, but those, too, mostly have a regional / suburban role only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods
it's none of my business, but the Belgian A-numbering system does have an internal logic to it, so it just seems strange that they ignore most of it. Posting both sets of numbers is what most of their neighbors do and it would at least have the advantage of matching what the motorist will see on their maps. (The person who's made the mistake of committing to memory that he should use the A3 and A2 to get from Brussels to Diest might miss his turn at Heverlee.
I think that it is fair to say that the Belgians do want their E-numbers to take precedence over their national ones. It's not my own preference, but it's none of my business either. But when it comes to planning your trip and then finding your way through the country, the motorist has to know that he can only rely on E-numbers, since you won't come across national numbers where it matters. As such, there may be a case in completely abandoning the A-numbers on roads that also have an E-number, as they do in the Scandinavian countries. And then let's hope that the mapmakers pick up the change (in fact, I believe that mapmakers would, even in the present situation, serve their customers well by completely removing Belgian A-numbers from their maps where the same road also bears an E-number).

But this issue is not unique to Belgium. The neighbouring countries do a bit of a poor job when it comes to signposting both sets of numbers, so there you face a mirrored version of the Belgian problem. Navigating through Germany, the Netherlands and France on the basis of E-numbers must be a bad experience. One is more or less forced into national numbers. That is not a bad thing, unless you had anticipated to navigate on the basis of E-numbers on the basis of the maps that you looked at.

Eventually, I am a strong believer in taking one system only. I think that signposting two systems does not benefit. As I mentioned, if Belgium wants to retain their E313s, E411s and E429s, fine but then remove the underlying A-numbers completely. And for all those other Western European countries that prefer their own A-numbers, I think that it would be better for them to completely remove the E-numbers from their signs as opposed to creating a false impression that you can navigate on E-numbers (that would create an issue under the AGR though).
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Old June 11th, 2011, 04:31 PM   #259
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AGR?
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Old June 11th, 2011, 05:12 PM   #260
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AGR is the international agreement on European roads, signed in Geneva in 1975.
Under the AGR countries which have signed are obliged to signpost those E-numbers.
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