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Old June 11th, 2011, 05:55 PM   #261
ElviS77
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Originally Posted by BWG95 View Post
You forgot National road 80 and local road 265 (Norrortsleden)...
There are even more, road 44, 53, even some unnumbered roads in the Stockholm and Malmö areas and probably a few I have forgotten. But the longer continuous motorway sections are found on the E network.
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Old June 11th, 2011, 06:56 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
but it's none of my business either. But when it comes to planning your trip and then finding your way through the country, the motorist has to know that he can only rely on E-numbers
since the E20 in sweden and the E65 in Greece (as someone mentioned) do not follow the shortest distance you can't fully rely on them.


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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Navigating through Germany, the Netherlands and France on the basis of E-numbers must be a bad experience. One is more or less forced into national numbers. That is not a bad thing, unless you had anticipated to navigate on the basis of E-numbers on the basis of the maps that you looked at.
E-numbers make sense only for international long haul truckers navigating their way on the continent, few motorists regularly travel long distance through several countries. Since the introducing of the GPS the E-roads feel even less important. They are feelgood-roads, make you feel that you can drive to that exotic destination without having to think about the map, but still in reality you only use a fraction of them, driving to work or other nearby locations.




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Originally Posted by BWG95 View Post
You forgot National road 80 and local road 265 (Norrortsleden)...
there also is the local roads of Stockholm 228 & 229 but they are only a few km.

also a very short section in Linköping of national road 34

that's about it.

Do any of these A-roads in Benelux, Italy, Germany run between several countries, if so do they change numbers ?

Last edited by NordikNerd; June 11th, 2011 at 07:35 PM.
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Old June 11th, 2011, 07:38 PM   #263
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That feelgood factor that you mention definitely played a role when E-routes were first created. But these days, I do not think that anybody bothers anymore. At least I don't ever think of Rome when driving to Utrecht. Or of Genova (dare I say Sicily via the strangest of routes?) when I continue my drive down the Dutch A2...
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Old June 11th, 2011, 08:03 PM   #264
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, when I continue my drive down the Dutch A2...
You mean the dutch A2 also is the E25/E35

are these E25/E35 marked as often as the A2 on the signs? What is the most distant destination seen on these roads in NL?
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Old June 11th, 2011, 08:28 PM   #265
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The Dutch A2 starts as E35 and then changes into E25. Furthest focal point on the signs for most of its length is Maastricht. First Belgian town appears at the Kerensheide interchange (A2/A76). That town is Liège, by the way.

On the E35, the town of Oberhausen first appears on the Eastern outskirts of Utrecht. No other towns in Germany are to be found on the signs.

On any Dutch E-route, the E-number is supposed to appear on the signs. Coverage used to be poor, yet is improving. At simple exits in the new style of signposting, however, E-numbers only appear on distance signs, where they used to be visible before the exit in the old system. But that is only at simple exits, where nobody would ever expect the E-route to turn off.
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Old June 11th, 2011, 10:07 PM   #266
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It is indeed a problem that maps of Belgium still include the national number very prominently while they're hardly signed on our roads. The signs are correct in terms of how Belgians themselves see their motorway network, but people using maps may not be prepared to use E-numbers instead of A-numbers.

I just did a test with Google Maps and their instructions don't mention the A1 when it's talking about the directions for the E19. So with those instructions, there shouldn't be any problems.

I personally think that both numbers should be clearly visible, with the most commonly used as first (in the case of Belgium: the E-number, in the countries where the A-numbers well-known, the A-number).

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Old June 11th, 2011, 10:22 PM   #267
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the E75 should use the Helsinki-Tallinn ferry and then continue through the Baltics, that is the quickest route to the continent.
That is definitely a good option. True, the route through Baltics actually has an E-number already, it's the E67 (Helsinki - Prague).

Having E67 and E75 multiplexed for a total of 1200 kilometers would not be the most optimal solution. But theoretically these two routes could just swap their numbers: Via Baltica becoming part of E75 and Gdynia - Prague becoming the new E67 route.

By the rules of the grid, E67 should anyway be located west of E75, so the swap would take care of that as well.
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Old June 12th, 2011, 12:13 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
there also is the local roads of Stockholm 228 & 229 but they are only a few km.

also a very short section in Linköping of national road 34

that's about it.
Still forgot some:http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_%...4gar_i_Sverige

I like to have only one number like we in the Nordics do. And even Finland who has chosen to add national numbers on top are using the same number even on motorways. If we were to have national numbers - it would make more sense to make continous routes instead, since the roads that make up our highways change standard a lot - one solution could be to add an M to number where it is motorway like in UK. (Denmark is the only of the countries that have motorway network worthy of making separate M-numbers.)
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Old June 12th, 2011, 06:14 PM   #269
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....At simple exits in the new style of signposting, however, E-numbers only appear on distance signs, where they used to be visible before the exit in the old system. But that is only at simple exits, where nobody would ever expect the E-route to turn off.
I'm having trouble visualizing what you mean by this.
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Old June 12th, 2011, 07:41 PM   #270
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Below a picture of a pull-through sign in the old style, followed by a fork sign in the new style. You will see that there is no E-shield signposted on the second sign, notwithstanding the fact that you are on E30. That is now policy for simple exits (i.e. not motorway interchanges).

The reason is that, when passing by a village like Goor, nobody will ever think "hey, my E30 could turn off here". So a confirmation after the exit that you are still on E30 is considered to be enough. In the old system, as the first picture shows, the E-route would still be shown prior to the exit.

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Old June 12th, 2011, 08:08 PM   #271
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Anyone noticed Google Maps' E-90 bug on Turkey?
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Old June 12th, 2011, 08:15 PM   #272
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It's me or E90 becomes E84 at GR/TR border and E90 reappears a little south in Çanakkale?
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Old June 12th, 2011, 08:32 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Below a picture of a pull-through sign in the old style, followed by a fork sign in the new style. You will see that there is no E-shield signposted on the second sign, notwithstanding the fact that you are on E30. That is now policy for simple exits (i.e. not motorway interchanges).

The reason is that, when passing by a village like Goor, nobody will ever think "hey, my E30 could turn off here". So a confirmation after the exit that you are still on E30 is considered to be enough. In the old system, as the first picture shows, the E-route would still be shown prior to the exit.

Bedankt.
I see what you mean.

(Of course, in the U.S., you probably wouldn't get even that much: if it's obvious that an exit's an exit, they don't usually bother with a pull-through.)

Have you ever noticed that there are places in France where E-numbers are posted and domestic ones aren't? Like this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszw...57612833075036
So the person navigating by domestic route numbers would have trouble: he'd need to know the exit number instead (I'm assuming that the E511 is also an N- or a D-road). This photo was easy to find: lots of exits in France just have an exit number and the names of various towns and landmarks (color-coded so that those who know the difference between a green and a white sign know that there's a main road there), whereas in the U.S. you'd have a route number too. I just needed to look for one with the little E-number plate stuck on the top.)

The "little E-number plate stuck on the top" is why I'm bringing this up: what strikes me as similar about that sign and your old-style Dutch example is that in both cases the E-marker is on a separate plate. I'm wondering if that indicates they may have been added, rather than being part of the sign assembly from the start.
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Old June 12th, 2011, 10:19 PM   #274
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Have you ever noticed that there are places in France where E-numbers are posted and domestic ones aren't? Like this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszw...57612833075036
So the person navigating by domestic route numbers would have trouble: he'd need to know the exit number instead (I'm assuming that the E511 is also an N- or a D-road).
The D road (D660) is reached via a fairly long spur of the A5 from this junction. A similar thing happens at Bordeaux, where the unsigned (and not an autoroute anymore, IIRC) A631 is just signed as E72 heading into the city.
Quote:
This photo was easy to find: lots of exits in France just have an exit number and the names of various towns and landmarks (color-coded so that those who know the difference between a green and a white sign know that there's a main road there), whereas in the U.S. you'd have a route number too.
Indeed, most of Europe navigates by destinations, not route number, which negates a lot of the point of E numbers, and also means it doesn't matter that much about having a coherent road numbering system.
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Old June 12th, 2011, 10:24 PM   #275
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It's French policy not to indicate a shield for the intersecting route when the exit is numbered. One hint is enough, they seem to say. It certainly not a European thing to negate intersecting route numbers like that. Definitely not my style. But when an E-number turns off at a simple exit, the French seem to make an exception. I do remember the days on which French motorway numbers were not even signposted on motorway intersections, and only E-numbers were. The French had started signposting their motorway numbers in the early 1980s, but some motorway concessionaires did not bother updating their signs at major intersections until well into the 1990s.

As to the position of the E-number on the sign, the French usually stick their road numbers on the top of the sign, as you also see on the pull-through sign. So not a later addition. The old Dutch approach indeed was to stick E-numbers to the top of the sign. Initially, they were add-ons, as the Dutch only started to add these in 1985 (which was the year in which the second generation of E-numbers launched) when there were of course lots of existing signs that needed an update. But new signs placed after 1985 featured the E-number in the same way. Only in the 2000s, they started experimenting with A and E on the sign itself, and this approach is now becoming the standard on distance signs and gantries.
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Old June 13th, 2011, 09:49 AM   #276
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AGR is the international agreement on European roads, signed in Geneva in 1975.
Under the AGR countries which have signed are obliged to signpost those E-numbers.
And the AGR replaced the initial European route declaration, "Declaration on the construction of main international traffic arteries", signed in Geneva in 1950.

The AGR agreement was initially signed by eight countries only, and it was in effect as of 1983. The Scandinavian countries put heavy reservations on the 1975 version, and did not join earlier than in 1991 after major changes were made.

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Old June 13th, 2011, 10:19 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
Still forgot some:http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_%...4gar_i_Sverige

I like to have only one number like we in the Nordics do. And even Finland who has chosen to add national numbers on top are using the same number even on motorways.
In Finland, the E numbering is only an extra attribute to the national numbering. In the signs, the default policy is to show the national numbers on top. However, this policy is not always obeyed.

In case of multiplexes, all national numbers are shown first, then the E numbers. For example, the roads 3/E12 and 9/63 are multiplexed for 25+ kilometres, and the signs show 3/9/E12/E63.





(Images: Google Maps)

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Old June 13th, 2011, 10:22 PM   #278
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It's me or E90 becomes E84 at GR/TR border and E90 reappears a little south in Çanakkale?
I meant, some dumb guys from Google labelled the whole D400 road as E90 either. Çanakkale-Ankara-Adana part of this is still labelled.
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Old June 14th, 2011, 10:20 AM   #279
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I meant, some dumb guys from Google labelled the whole D400 road as E90 either. Çanakkale-Ankara-Adana part of this is still labelled.
It's true. But AFAIK E90 doesn't go all the way to Irani border, it leaves D400 at Cizre and goes to Iraqi border. And it's labelled D400 by Google maps, too (It's D430).
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Old June 14th, 2011, 06:55 PM   #280
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So it needs a report for fix.
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