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Old June 15th, 2011, 01:08 PM   #281
Uppsala
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post

Malmö, sweden is connected with four E-roads E6, E20, E22, E65 but still there is only one of these connecting to the continent. I wonder is there any single e-roadsection that covers more than 2 e-road numbers ?
I don't understand what You mean here when You are talking about those E-roads in Malmö and connecting the continent.

E6 is only going in Sweden and Norway. So this E-road is maybe not connecting the continent if You think Sweden is outside the continent, but I don't agree here, because I think we are all Europeans.

E20 is going in Russia, Estonia, Sweden, Denmark, the UK and Ireland. So if You think Russia and the Balitic states are a part of the continent, ok, this road is connecting the continent, but from Malmö and south this E-road only going in Scandinavia and then in the Brittish Islands, the UK and Ireland.

E22 is going in Russia, Latvia, Sweden, Germany, Netherlands and the UK. So this must be the E-road in Malmö that connecting the continent.

E65 is going in Sweden, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Kosovo and Greece. And this E-road is ending in Crete. Ok, Crete is not the continent, thats an island. Maybe you think former of Eastern Europe and the Balkans is not the continent? But I don' agree with that.

So I think all of the E-roads in Malmö is going in parts of the continent.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 01:14 PM   #282
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All roads lead to R.. Malmö.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 01:47 PM   #283
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No, all roads lead to Philosophy. I will explain that later on the rest area.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 01:51 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Uppsala View Post
I don't understand what You mean here when You are talking about those E-roads in Malmö and connecting the continent.

So I think all of the E-roads in Malmö is going in parts of the continent.
This is what I think:

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Originally Posted by Gareth View Post
Additionally, I'm not a fan of numbers which disappear into the sea and then reappear at the other side and some of them just don't make so much sense and aren't really that useful. .
Only one E-road in Malmö which does not disappear into the sea, that is the E20 connecting to the continent via the Stora Bält-bridge.

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Take the E20 which passes near where I live in Liverpool. It 'arrives' via the port from Ireland and then uses the M62, jumps into the north sea to Scandinavia, from where it has a little swim in the Baltic towards Estonia and then Russia. Now, how much traffic on the M62 leaving Liverpool seriously ends up following this route, even as far as Denmark & Sweden, let alone Estonia & Russia? It's an utterly pointless designation.
I really think he got the point: E-roads must be continuous and make sense if they are named E-roads, if the E-road is interrupted by the sea it should be renamed on the other side.

The E65 Malmö-Ystad has a major gap before reaching Swinojuisce (I never get the spelling right ), that is a 6h ferry, so this section should become a national road instead, let the E65 end in Swinojuisce, that would be the natural end for this road. As for the E45 which should end in Fredrikshavn which it did before.

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All roads lead to R.. Malmö.
Yes,to Rome

But the swedish tourist board put some money into resigning the national road 45 into becomming the E45 not paying attention to the 3h ferry Fredrikshavn-Göteborg so now all roads lead to Karesuando ! (As if someone had a reason to go there)

Last edited by NordikNerd; June 15th, 2011 at 01:58 PM.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 02:13 PM   #285
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The E4 continues into the continent but it changes E numbers in Denmark, if I remember correctly.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 02:14 PM   #286
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I really wish the UK used its E numbers, and Ireland more prominently as well.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 02:32 PM   #287
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The E4 continues into the continent but it changes E numbers in Denmark, if I remember correctly.
Nope. E55 stops the port of Helsingør and E4 stops in the port of Helsingborg. So exactly how NordicNerd wanted to see it.

I disagree with him, by the way. I think that it depends on the nature of the sea crossing whether an E-route should be continued on both ends of whether it is more sensible to start a new route. The continuation of the E65 from Poland into Sweden appears to me as a complete waste. Just signpost Ystad in Poland, and once you make it into Sweden you don't need a number to get motorists back onto the major E-routes through Sweden. Many other sea crossings in the E-network can hardly be considered to form part of a major international transport axis, so I would indeed plea against continuation of the E-route on both ends of the sea. As a matter of fact, let's get rid completely of E20 through the UK and Ireland, as it does not have any international throughfare value.

But some ferry crossings do play that role. Helsingbor - Helsingør qualifies from my point of view. Here, the fact that there is a bit of sea between two bits of a route should not prevent the E-number to continue. Ditto for the Puttgarden - Rodby crossing for as long as it continues to exist and the Sicily crossing in the E45 (even though I would not really bother if they simply terminated E45 at Reggio Calabria without any E-number being used on the Sicilian end).
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Old June 15th, 2011, 02:37 PM   #288
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E55 is the most useless E-road in Denmark. It runs concurrent with E47 for 85% of its route and the only non-concurrent part isn't even a motorway. It may just as well have been a Primærrute.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 02:45 PM   #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
This is what I think:



Only one E-road in Malmö which does not disappear into the sea, that is the E20 connecting to the continent via the Stora Bält-bridge.
Thats not correct. E6 is going over the border to Norway. So E6 and E20 connecting to other countries without a ferry.


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Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
I really think he got the point: E-roads must be continuous and make sense if they are named E-roads, if the E-road is interrupted by the sea it should be renamed on the other side.

The E65 Malmö-Ystad has a major gap before reaching Swinojuisce (I never get the spelling right ), that is a 6h ferry, so this section should become a national road instead, let the E65 end in Swinojuisce, that would be the natural end for this road. As for the E45 which should end in Fredrikshavn which it did before.
Thats not the idea with E-roads. The idea from the begin was to have roads that continuous after a gap from the sea.

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Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
Yes,to Rome

But the swedish tourist board put some money into resigning the national road 45 into becomming the E45 not paying attention to the 3h ferry Fredrikshavn-Göteborg so now all roads lead to Karesuando ! (As if someone had a reason to go there)
Thats not for Karesuando . Thats for town like Mora, Orsa and other places around the E45.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 06:01 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
E55 is the most useless E-road in Denmark. It runs concurrent with E47 for 85% of its route and the only non-concurrent part isn't even a motorway. It may just as well have been a Primærrute.
E55 through Denmark made sense until the Swedes succeeded in their request to have the Swedish part of E55 renumbered into its old number E4. At that moment, UNECE should have taken the obvious next step and move the terminus of E55 to Rostock. Or the current E47-E55 intersection, if you really wish.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 07:23 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Uppsala View Post
Thats not for Karesuando . Thats for town like Mora, Orsa and other places around the E45.
Aswell as Alta, Hammerfest. E45 is quite important for Finnmark county i would say. I assume E45 extension isn't part of TERN? If it's valueable enough for TERN it should be valuable enough for the E.
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Old June 15th, 2011, 11:27 PM   #292
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plus the E45 very nearly forms an international route across from Sweden stopping literally 100m from the border, and 200m from the E8 - silly Finns not going for that last little bit (they even sign route 953 with 'to E45' banners)

The E20 forms major routes in both Ireland and the UK, as well as Denmark-Sweden and Estonia-Russia. Just consider it as 4 separate routes with duplicate numbers. It's part of TERN on the western side of the North Sea, and only doesn't form one route as the E22 goes to Holyhead, which, rather than Liverpool, is the main port for heading to Dublin.
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Old June 16th, 2011, 09:41 AM   #293
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plus the E45 very nearly forms an international route across from Sweden stopping literally 100m from the border, and 200m from the E8 - silly Finns not going for that last little bit (they even sign route 953 with 'to E45' banners)
It is not 200 metres but 800, and it is not 953 but 959.

The Finns are right. The Swedes pushed changing their national 45 to E45 while Finland was not that interested. The Swedes wanted to extend the E45 to the village of Karesuando, and the AGR agreement was changed accordingly.

However, the Swedes forgot the fact that the E8 runs on the Finnish side of the river, in a village of Kaaresuvanto (or Karesuvanto). Finland just follows the AGR agreement literally.

Karesuando and Kaaresuvanto are two different places, like Konstanz and Kreuzlingen are, for instance.
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Old June 16th, 2011, 11:05 AM   #294
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The E45 through Sweden is part of TEN-T, but not all the way up North. Seems to stop at the E10. To me, inclusion into TEN-T shows some importance, but the number of roads within TEN-T is so large that it can be hardly a guideline for what should be two-digit E-routes.

To me, the Swedish part of E45 is a route through nowhere, mostly important for traffic into areas that are / may be suitable for tourism on a larger scale. If it is of importance for the Finnmark area, it seems to be primarily as a means to cross from towns like Oslo and Trondheim to the E4, which is then used as the main route to the Far North. From a network perspective, I see little added value in elevating the full-length Swedish inland route to major European artery status. Its elevation was always tourism-driven and maybe UNECE should have resisted. But then again, many three-digit E-routes have a similar lack of network importance. Eventually, UNECE has failed to cut the crap in my opinion, where I think that limiting the network to roads really perceived to form the European backbone would have enhanced the use of E-routes.

In any event, the Fins clearly did not care, and maybe they above all did not want to be placed on the hook for the various road standard obligations that the AGR provides for.
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Old June 16th, 2011, 12:03 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
In any event, the Fins clearly did not care, and maybe they above all did not want to be placed on the hook for the various road standard obligations that the AGR provides for.
I do not believe Finland's uninterest has anything to do with road standards. Most of the E45 in Sweden is of rather low standard, and it is mostly a result of renumbering three-digit lower-class roads. For Finland, the E45 in Sweden just represents zero importance.

The standard of the Finnish road 959, that 800-metre spur to Sweden, is not different from the northern sections of the E8.

Last edited by MattiG; June 16th, 2011 at 12:35 PM.
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Old June 16th, 2011, 12:47 PM   #296
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The Swedes wanted to extend the E45 to the village of Karesuando, and the AGR agreement was changed accordingly.

However, the Swedes forgot the fact that the E8 runs on the Finnish side of the river, in a village of Kaaresuvanto (or Karesuvanto). Finland just follows the AGR agreement literally.
The Swedes can only propose extensions inside Sweden - it's not that they 'forgot', it's that they couldn't propose it to the E8 without Finland's backing. The Finns didn't want to propose to the AGR that it carried on that short distance to Kaaresuvanto and the E8, therefore the Swedes could only thus propose it to Karesuando.

Given they put the dotted line E45 banners on the 959, it seems that Finland could have had the E45 extended to the E8 at no more cost than they spent anyway.

All the talk of the E45 ending in a silly place, less than 1km from the E8, has the answer that Finland were being too snobby to get on board with the extension - not the absurd idea that the Swedes forgot that the E8 was there.
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Old June 16th, 2011, 01:26 PM   #297
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The Swedes can only propose extensions inside Sweden.
Of course, they can propose anything. But the proposal will not realize without the support by all the relevant countries. And Finland was not interested, as well as it is not interested in extending the E45 to Alta.

Anyway, a funny decision by UNECE.

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Old June 16th, 2011, 08:55 PM   #298
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As you may already know, E16 will be extended from the Oslo region eastwards through Kongsvinger, Torsby, Malung, Borlänge to Gävle in Sweden.

Personally I don't see the need for yet another E-route between the countries, given that there are already 5 (E6, E18, E14, E12, E10).

Also, there are substandard parts. The road from Mobekk outside Kongsvinger to the Norwegian/Swedish border (36km) is a single lane road, example: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=6...19.61,,0,-3.05

I don't know about the stretch form the border to Torsby since it's not covered in google street view, but it looks pretty narrow with an 80 speed limit (all 2-lane parts of E-roads in Sweden usually have 90). Furthmore, I don't think the strech Torsby - Borlänge is that great either, passing right through many villages/small towns.

All in all, there are some motorway, 2+2/2+1 expressway and decent 2-lane stretches, but what good does it make since more than half of the road is substandard. To me, this is yet another useless attempt just like the E45 extension, ultimately undermining the idea that an E-road equals decent road standard.

Last edited by metasmurf; June 16th, 2011 at 10:23 PM.
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Old June 16th, 2011, 10:14 PM   #299
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, To me, this is yet another useless attempt just like the E45 extension, ultimately undermining the idea that an E-road equals decent road standard.
Most E-roads equals decent road standard today, but I remember driving the E4-section Norrköping-Nyköping at Stavsjö which was a quite curvy and narrow standard 1+1 road as late as 1996.

I think the E-road should be of international importance, as a connecting link between countries.

The E45 through sweden starts in the port of Göteborg and ends in Karesuando which nevertheless is a borderpoint and swedens most northerly road. Still the poor traffic flow on these northern latitudes hardly justify first category roads.

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,However, the Swedes forgot the fact that the E8 runs on the Finnish side of the river, in a village of Kaaresuvanto (or Karesuvanto). Finland just follows the AGR agreement literally.

Interesting also that if you want to drive to the very north of sweden you have to use the finnish E8, because there are no swedish roads connecting to the very north of the country.

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Karesuando and Kaaresuvanto are two different places, like Konstanz and Kreuzlingen are, for instance.
Any other twin cities out there? I think of Kansas City,MO and Kansas City,KS. 2 cities with similar names on different sides of the border.

Last edited by NordikNerd; June 16th, 2011 at 10:23 PM.
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Old June 16th, 2011, 10:47 PM   #300
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Any other twin cities out there? I think of Kansas City,MO and Kansas City,KS. 2 cities with similar names on different sides of the border.
Valga in Estonia and Valka in Latvia.

Komárom in Hungary and Komárno in Slovakia.

It is two Pello around the river Torneälv betwen Sweden and Finland, one in Sweden and one in Finland.

There are many other twins like this around the borders here in Europe.
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