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Old June 16th, 2011, 11:15 PM   #301
Grisent
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On the Finnish-Swedish border, Ylitornio / Övertorneå also qualify I guess.
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Old June 17th, 2011, 11:08 AM   #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metasmurf View Post
As you may already know, E16 will be extended from the Oslo region eastwards through Kongsvinger, Torsby, Malung, Borlänge to Gävle in Sweden.

Personally I don't see the need for yet another E-route between the countries, given that there are already 5 (E6, E18, E14, E12, E10).
I would even say that the whole E road system has turned obsolete.

The idea was good in the post-war Europe supporting the recovery of the infrastructure. Now, almost every European country has a decent network. The only real thing the E road system brings, is an extra numbering layer.

Why should the United Nations bother about the European road network any more?

Like the E45 case, I believe the main interested bodies to push extending the E16 are the local municipalities in the middle of nothing. They think getting an E road nearby would bring gold, diamonds and money to them. There is some black magic in this thinking.

In the northern Finland, all the municipalities support the idea to extend the E45 to Alta. Even the municipality of Ylitornio has joined the gang even if the distance from Ylitornio to the closest point of the proposed E45 is some 200 kilometres. I cannot understand what significant added value the signposting would bring to Ylitornio.

Trying to get an E road nearby seems to be kind of a marketing action. It is quite far away from the idea of E roads.

Last edited by MattiG; June 17th, 2011 at 11:36 AM.
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Old June 17th, 2011, 11:20 AM   #303
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Valga in Estonia and Valka in Latvia.

Komárom in Hungary and Komárno in Slovakia.

It is two Pello around the river Torneälv betwen Sweden and Finland, one in Sweden and one in Finland.

There are many other twins like this around the borders here in Europe.
Gorizia and Nova Gorica in Italy/Slovenia.
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Old June 17th, 2011, 11:29 AM   #304
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Zgorzelec/Görlitz, Gubin/Guben, Kostrzyn/Küstrin in Poland/Germany as well.
There is also Słubice/Frankfurt a.d.Oder pair, but the names aren't similar
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Old June 17th, 2011, 01:21 PM   #305
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Trying to get an E road nearby seems to be kind of a marketing action. It is quite far away from the idea of E roads.
That's how the UK treated them under the old system - they wanted an inset like the Rhine-Rhur region, so in addition to the E1, E2, E5 and E8 major routes (all linking London to the continent), and the E31 (London - Glasgow via East Coast), E32 (E33 - Edinburgh - Perth), E33 (London - Glasgow via West Coast), E34 (Birmingham - Holyhead for Dublin) routes that joined up the biggest cities, you had the E104, E105, E106, E107, E108, E109, E110, E111, E112, E113, E114, E115, E116, E117, E118, E119, E120 (Ireland got in on the act too with several E12xs, but it's worth pointing out that they had no E roads before '68)

Then again, the E105, E106, E109, E110, E112, E113, E114, E115, E117, E118, E119 and part of the E120 were all made part of the UK's E road network, which, outside of Northern Ireland, is really a rather threadbare grid.

Here's a map:
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Old June 20th, 2011, 03:39 PM   #306
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And what's the harm in doing so?
For every administrative layer, there is an extra cost involved. I do not believe the benefits of the E road system cover the cost. Especially, I do not believe these types of extensions paying off the cost.

There is some hidden agenda in this case: By signposting the miserable road sections in Hedmark and Värmland as E16, there may be changes to get those roads upgraded. At least somebody believes in this magic.

(A similar strategy has not been successful in Finland: The national road 18 was created by renumbering a number of old poor road sections about 15 years ago. No major upgrade has been made nor it can be foreseen.)
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Old June 20th, 2011, 07:32 PM   #307
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I also believe that the credibility of the system is at stake when E-routes get extended in this fashion. When coming across an E-route, you want the motorist to think "route of European importance", not "could also be a relatively minor road".

A route numbering system should tell the road user something about either its function(international route, local route or whatever there may be in between) or about its construction level (motorway, expressway, etc). If a numbering system fails to do either, you'd better give up signposting them. Where route numbering gets dragged into politics in the Scandinavian way, you risk to slide into a very wrong direction.
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Old June 22nd, 2011, 03:51 PM   #308
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I also believe that the credibility of the system is at stake when E-routes get extended in this fashion. When coming across an E-route, you want the motorist to think "route of European importance", not "could also be a relatively minor road"....
Don't most motorists seeing an E-number (except in Belgium and Scandinavia) think nothing whatsoever about it? ;-)

Incidentally, I've seen somewhere that in those places in Belgium where an E-route is laid out on a non-freeway, they're not actually marked. Is that true?
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Old June 22nd, 2011, 03:59 PM   #309
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Incidentally, I've seen somewhere that in those places in Belgium where an E-route is laid out on a non-freeway, they're not actually marked. Is that true?
I think so... For instance N63 south of Liège is also E46, but the number E46 is not used on the signage, only on kilometer posts like these:

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Old June 27th, 2011, 07:51 PM   #310
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I'd prefer ditching E-road numbering altogether. For Sweden, I'd then introduce separate motorway numbers roughly akin to how current national roads are numbered (zones from south to north). E.g. E6->M1, E22->M2, E4->M3 etc. Shorter motorways and spurs could get two-digit numbers.

Just a crazy idea! (Anything is better than the current mess of E-roads )
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Old June 27th, 2011, 10:28 PM   #311
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Quote:
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I'd prefer ditching E-road numbering altogether. For Sweden, I'd then introduce separate motorway numbers roughly akin to how current national roads are numbered (zones from south to north). E.g. E6->M1, E22->M2, E4->M3 etc. Shorter motorways and spurs could get two-digit numbers.

Just a crazy idea! (Anything is better than the current mess of E-roads )
Sweden needs separate motorway numbers now so I think your idea is very good.
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Old June 28th, 2011, 12:38 AM   #312
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It's not that I foresee an abandon of E-numbering, but my plan would be as follows.

In the Scandinavian countries, I would just give the E-routes a national number based on their current E-number. So E4 gets national number 4, E6 gets national number 6 etcetera. This is easy to implement as the countries involved have no national number that corresponds to an E-route in the country (to avoid confusion).

Identifying motorways is, in a way, a step that is separate from that process. As such, it could already be implemented on the non-E-motorways in these countries. It would be easiest to again revert to the existing national number. Where a Swedish Riksväg, for instance, has motorway status, you would just add the prefix A. So Riksväg 40 becomes A40 where it has motorway status. And when it turns into an ordinary road, the current Route 40 sign returns to the signs.

These simple changes -only a matter of prefix really- should provide for a much smoother transformation than to create a wholly new system with sequential numbering that starts at number 1. At least in Scandinavia, where the E-routes really follow one road, three-digit E-numbers are rare and duplexes scarce. In Belgium, the E-grid is too chaotic to simply convert into national numbering. And because a very logical system is in place anyway, I'd simply revert to the current A-numbers.
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Old June 28th, 2011, 12:41 AM   #313
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Why would you use an A-prefix in Nordic countries where they're called a Motorväg, Motorvei or Motorvej?
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Old June 28th, 2011, 12:48 AM   #314
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Quote:
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Why would you use an A-prefix in Nordic countries where they're called a Motorväg, Motorvei or Motorvej?
Because it might still be regarded as an A-road - with national routes being B-routes and local routes C-routes.... Like they do in some countries...
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Old June 28th, 2011, 09:35 AM   #315
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I simply picked A because that is the prefix most commonly associated with motorways. I would expect people in the Nordics to share that association, despite the fact that their word for motorway starts with an M. A is the prefix that people from the Nordics are used to for their travels to the mainland, after all. But I do not have any strong feelings against an M-prefix.
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Last edited by -Pino-; June 28th, 2011 at 10:19 AM.
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Old June 28th, 2011, 09:44 AM   #316
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Why would you use an A-prefix in Nordic countries where they're called a Motorväg, Motorvei or Motorvej?
AFAIK in southern Sweden also "autostrada" is used.
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Old June 30th, 2011, 01:35 AM   #317
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Sweden needs A-numbers or M-numbers more and more now. The motorway network in Sweden is built like that now. A-numbers can be a good idea. I think A-numbers can be a good idea because quite a lot of people knows an A-number means motorway in other countries. So if the part of E4 where it is a motorway is called A4, thats a good idea, because the Swedish people understand that means a motorway, and it means the same like Autobahn or Autostrada. And that means people from other countries can understand A4, A6, A18, A20, A40, A222 in Sweden are motorways.
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Old June 30th, 2011, 11:32 PM   #318
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If they renumbered Swedish E-routes into national routes on the basis of the current E-numbers, you'd get the odd situation that "old" national numbers get numbers increasing from South to North, while the new numbers / old E-routes decrease as you get further North. Rv10 (old E10) would stand out in between all the Riksväger in the region with numbers in the 90s.
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Old July 1st, 2011, 03:25 AM   #319
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As far as I know the European Routes in Norway technically has the national route number as in the E-number. Out of the 13 European Routes we have in Norway, only the E-number 12 is occupied of the national route numbers. And National route 12 is an extension of E 12. It starts in the same roundabout where E 12 ends.
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Old September 19th, 2011, 07:32 PM   #320
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I bumped into interesting thing on polish forum. What will be the route of the future E75 on Czech Polish Slovak borders? Of will the E75 take the A4 route? and then go back to S1? This sign from A1 Świerklany - Gorzyczki makes me wonder.

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Dziś drugi koniec Gliwickiego odcinka A1.



6. zoom

The current route E75 goes like this:



What would be it in the future?



I am not aware of renumbering on the Czech side. In fact the plans were that the future E75 would go only through Poland and Slovakia I guess. So this is what I tried to point out some time ago about the mess in the E roads planning.

Let alone that the logic of EU funding follows the E numbers in quite some number of cases. And perhaps this has also something to do that the polish A1 was substantially cofinenced by the EU, but the czech D1 not so. Actually this could be good business, first we plan E route, get the funding, later we re route it and get the funding again... :o.
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