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Old April 9th, 2014, 07:19 PM   #401
aswnl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Strangely, Albania, that is on mainland Europe and it's not a microstate, hasn't any E-road.
When the E-road system was being revised in 1975, Albania was the only country in Europe where it was forbidden to own a car, and the country's borders were totally locked. So no need for European mainroads. Nowadays Albania has some E-roads, mostly 3-digit E-road (E762, E851, E852, E853, E86), which are unimportant from an international point of view.
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Old April 9th, 2014, 09:29 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by aswnl View Post
Nowadays Albania has some E-roads, mostly 3-digit E-road (E762, E851, E852, E853, E86), which are unimportant from an international point of view.
Not officially, though Albania did accede to the AGR Agreement in 2006.

E 762 Sarajevo - Podgorica - Border of Albania
E 851 Petrovac - (Albania) - Prizren - Priština
E 852 Ohrid - Albanian Border
E 853 Ioannina - Albanian Border
E 86 Krystalopigi - Florina - Vevi - Yefira (doesn't reach Albania)
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Old April 10th, 2014, 08:40 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post

The E4 is still signposted for Kemi, Finland although it ends in Tornio.

It used to go to Helsinki. Maybe they forgot to remove the old sign.
This roundabout is far newer than the number change.

In other words, this isn't just about forgetting to remove the sign, but to install a new wrong sign.
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Old April 10th, 2014, 01:48 PM   #404
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Is E851 signposted in Albania?
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old April 11th, 2014, 03:08 AM   #405
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Apart from the UK, E-numbers appear to signed pretty much everywhere, though to varying degrees (ranging from totally relying on E-numbers to just some confirmation signs here and there, unsuitable for navigating).
I like how countries like Denmark and Norway mark their E-route roads only with the E-number, this keeps things simple. Using both E-numbers and the national route numbers (like France) is a bit more complex but still allows the E-numbering to be potentially useful. But I really don't understand the logic of just putting the E-numbers on confirmation signs, like Germany does (and then only sometimes), but never in advance of the junction. This seems to defeat the whole purpose of having E-numbers (and road numbering in general), which is to help people navigate. I'm really curious why Germany has resisted incorporating E-numbering fully, as most other European countries have done.

The E-numbering system seems to have the same purpose as the US-route numbering system, to provide continuity of route numbering across multiple states to make navigation easier. It seems to work better here since the US-numbered routes generally don't also have a separate state route number, and there aren't states that have decided to just use their own state route numbers instead of the US-route numbers.
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Old April 11th, 2014, 08:26 AM   #406
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Originally Posted by Natomasken View Post

The E-numbering system seems to have the same purpose as the US-route numbering system, to provide continuity of route numbering across multiple states to make navigation easier.
That was the initial ideal vision. However, the system is nowadays decayed and more or less obsolete and useless. It is time to bring it down.
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Old April 11th, 2014, 08:33 AM   #407
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Originally Posted by OulaL View Post
This roundabout is far newer than the number change.

In other words, this isn't just about forgetting to remove the sign, but to install a new wrong sign.
Are you sure? The motorway Kemi-Tornio was opened in 2001, and the E8 was extended from Tornio to Turku in 2002, if I recall. Thus, the motorway was initially 29/E4 although it is now 29/E8.
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Old April 11th, 2014, 10:39 AM   #408
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I like how countries like Denmark and Norway mark their E-route roads only with the E-number, this keeps things simple. Using both E-numbers and the national route numbers (like France) is a bit more complex but still allows the E-numbering to be potentially useful. But I really don't understand the logic of just putting the E-numbers on confirmation signs, like Germany does (and then only sometimes), but never in advance of the junction. This seems to defeat the whole purpose of having E-numbers (and road numbering in general), which is to help people navigate. I'm really curious why Germany has resisted incorporating E-numbering fully, as most other European countries have done.
There is simply no point in yet another road numbering system. Especially not in an arbitrary system that is at odd with the actual courses of the roads.
But the most important reason for omitting these numbers is that they look fvck ugly. They would simply spoil the aesthetics of our directional signs.

Who exactly need road numbers anyway. Roads numbers exist for administrative purposes and not for navigation.
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Old April 11th, 2014, 07:35 PM   #409
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Who exactly need road numbers anyway. Roads numbers exist for administrative purposes and not for navigation.
I couldn't disagree more. For me, road numbers are the means of navigating when I'm in somewhere unfamiliar. I can look at a map and easily figure out my route using just the route numbers. The alternative is to use city names, but I have no way of knowing which city names are going to appear on signs. You have to be pretty familiar with the local geography for this to work well, but guide signs are most needed by drivers who are not locals and are unlikely to know the local geography.

This is one of the few areas where I think the US does a better job than most European countries. In the US, route numbers are consistently shown on guide signs, and usually with the cardinal direction as well. In Europe, city names are the primary information given, and route numbers are often not shown (in my experience, Germany and Switzerland are the worst). Where route numbers are shown, it's often in a tiny font that's hard to read (like Italy). Cardinal directions are more useful than control cities when you're approaching a route you need to take (again, because you can figure the direction out from reading a map), but almost never used in Europe. I think most of the problems I've had navigating in Europe have been because I was expecting road number information to be there when it wasn't.
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Old April 11th, 2014, 09:00 PM   #410
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In the USA most roads run in N-S or W-E directon. It's not the case of Europe when there are important highways who run in not-perpendicular directions (for example: SW-NE). For this reason we don't use cardinal directions.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old April 11th, 2014, 09:07 PM   #411
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Cardinal directions are indeed not practical in Europe. But route numbers are, for navigating and for reference. Numbers are shown on maps, usually fairly well-known (motorways and some main roads) and mentioned on traffic information. Numbers can be consistently signed, while you'll have to wait and see with destinations.

I prefer a combination of destinations and route numbers. This practice is used in most of Europe. But you could ask questions about the necessity to sign minor roads with a route number, for example the thousands of departmental routes in France, or gazillions of route number varieties in Spain.
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Old April 11th, 2014, 09:25 PM   #412
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
In the USA most roads run in N-S or W-E directon. It's not the case of Europe when there are important highways who run in not-perpendicular directions (for example: SW-NE). For this reason we don't use cardinal directions.
Well, you could still call the E19 toward Amsterdam "north" and toward Paris "south." It wouldn't really mean due north and due south, just be an easy way of distinguishing one side of the road from the other that would work from one END of the road to the other that's independent of what the control cities are in a given stretch. It's not as if all or most of our highways are aligned to a grid either. Most E-roads in, say, Belgium, could have directions applied. And it would be helpful. (And there are, I believe, places where U.S. states sign roads as, say "US 33 Northwest" and "Southeast" where they really run NW and SE for hundreds of miles.)

(Okay, I guess my Lenten lurk mode is over....)
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Old April 11th, 2014, 10:02 PM   #413
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The UK will often use cardinal directions alongside road numbers, but not always and only on major roads.

The E19 in the Netherlands screams to me "originally planned to go on the A4 but they still haven't finished it".

The grid was never a good idea, and is too rigidly applied (is E67 the only serious diagonal route? How many 3 digit-routes meet nearly end-on for no other reason than meeting a major route?) - much more so than the Interstate network that it is trying to ape (let alone the US route system that is closer too).
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Old April 11th, 2014, 11:37 PM   #414
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From an European POV, the US system of roadnumbers and some cardinal directions is totally worthless. You don't know at all which destination you are driving to, unless you know the complete route of a numbered road. I prefer the continental European system of signage. Navigating on cities, with the help of some road numbers. National roadnumbers are sufficient - no need for E-road numbering. However the signing of E-roads is compulsary due to the 1975 AGR-treaty.
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Old April 11th, 2014, 11:56 PM   #415
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I think cardinal directions could be useful in Europe too even if the roads don't follow a grid pattern like many in the US do. Say there's a road numbered "A1" that runs mostly at a diagonal on a SW-NE axis. It might be signed as S and N, or it might be signed as E and W, depending on which axis is longer (NS or EW). But it shouldn't really matter. Let's say you want to travel in a NE direction. At the junction, the signs read "A1 City A" and "A1 City B." Unless you know which of these cities is in the direction you're going, you don't know for sure which one to take. But if the signs read "A1-N City A" and "A1-S City B," you can probably figure it out correctly. From looking at the map, you'll know that you want to go in a NE direction so "N" is the right direction and "S" isn't. The same thing would be true if the road were marked "E" and "W." You'd probably know "E" was the proper direction and "W" was not.
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Old April 11th, 2014, 11:56 PM   #416
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The original intention, to make it a motorway numbering system, made more sense.

Now, the E-numbering system is like trying to fit the terrain to a map. Like E 1 for instanse. West coast of the Iberian peninsula, AND east coast of Ireland?
It seems like the old system made a bit more sense. I also think it should stop at E 99.
E 6 for instanse, was a part of the old system, and it went all the way to Rome. I think it makes sense that a major road from the Scandinavias (future Ferhman?) running through Germany, over the Alps and into Italy should have a low number. But it's like E 45 or something that sounds like a bypass of Copenhagen.

And I'm sorry, but E 01, and then a different E 001? This is nonsense. It makes sense only at a technical (mathematical) level.

This is somewhat funny from the original E-road document: (about D3 highways)
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On these roads, the three lanes shall be clearly marked except at curves and summits, where the traffic shall, if necessary, be channelled into two marked lanes.
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Old April 12th, 2014, 01:01 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by Natomasken View Post
I couldn't disagree more. For me, road numbers are the means of navigating when I'm in somewhere unfamiliar. I can look at a map and easily figure out my route using just the route numbers. The alternative is to use city names, but I have no way of knowing which city names are going to appear on signs. You have to be pretty familiar with the local geography for this to work well, but guide signs are most needed by drivers who are not locals and are unlikely to know the local geography.
To navigate by numbers you have to know at least as much information than navigating by control destinations. The first requires road specific information which is useless beyond roads. General geographic knowledge, however, is useful for lots of purposes including travelling by other modes of transport.
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Old April 12th, 2014, 01:08 AM   #418
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I think cardinal directions could be useful in Europe too even if the roads don't follow a grid pattern like many in the US do. Say there's a road numbered "A1" that runs mostly at a diagonal on a SW-NE axis. It might be signed as S and N, or it might be signed as E and W, depending on which axis is longer (NS or EW). But it shouldn't really matter. Let's say you want to travel in a NE direction. At the junction, the signs read "A1 City A" and "A1 City B." Unless you know which of these cities is in the direction you're going, you don't know for sure which one to take. But if the signs read "A1-N City A" and "A1-S City B," you can probably figure it out correctly. From looking at the map, you'll know that you want to go in a NE direction so "N" is the right direction and "S" isn't. The same thing would be true if the road were marked "E" and "W." You'd probably know "E" was the proper direction and "W" was not.
Cardinal directions are a wording information. In a multi-lingual world this is a clear disadvantage. While an E stands for East only in some countries in others it would be an O or a V or something else.
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Old April 12th, 2014, 01:09 AM   #419
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E 1 for instanse. West coast of the Iberian peninsula, AND east coast of Ireland?
What is wrong with duplicates?

I'd argue the northern E01 should run Aberdeen-Stranraer and Larne-Cork, rather than Larne-Rosslare, but I have no problem with it running along the east coast of Ireland: the Atlantic corridor doesn't warrant a 2-digit route (a three digit one, however: possibly).
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But it's like E 45 or something that sounds like a bypass of Copenhagen.
The US's main interstates are E95, E80, etc. No reason why E06 is more major than E45 and no reason why single/double digits need be more important than triple/quad digits. But then I come from a country where numbers are the main way of navigating, but the A/M20 is the more important route than the parallel A/M2 and the A30 is less important than the A303 that bypasses it, the A1079 can be an inter-city primary route, and the A32 a back road. So what do I know about what importance numbers carry?
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And I'm sorry, but E 01, and then a different E 001? This is nonsense. It makes sense only at a technical (mathematical) level.
good job the nearest E0x and E00x pair are thousands of miles apart. E00x seems to be a way of having 3-digit numbers above Ex9x or E9xx. E0x padding is typically ignored, but it is to make 99 2-digit roads, and no single digit ones.
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This is somewhat funny from the original E-road document: (about D3 highways)
nope, it's about S3 highways. In 1950, I don't think there were any D3 highways in Europe, whereas there were an awful lot of S3 highways. The necessary channelling into 2 lanes is to remove the 'suicide lane' (so called as even on straights, the bi-directional overtaking lane was dangerous) for where there aren't sight lines to see to overtake.
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Old April 12th, 2014, 01:14 AM   #420
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The UK will often use cardinal directions alongside road numbers, but not always and only on major roads.
The UK doesn't use cardinal directions in its real sense. British signs rather point to regions which are named by their relative location within Britain.
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