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Old April 13th, 2014, 12:18 AM   #441
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Easy solution: just post cardinal direction in local language. Nothing spectacular on a continent where the speakers of so many languages know how to respond to Kreuz München-Nord-West and to exit Brescia Ovest. And if you believe that I failed to explain why posting cardinal directions is useful, read again.
Just that a cardinal direction in the local language is no use for the transit traffic while the locals know their way anyway.
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Old April 13th, 2014, 12:32 AM   #442
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
"Clutters the sign"? Use fewer destinations. Some of your signs are ridiculous. "I-80 West" takes up less space than "I-80 Stroudsburg, Cleveland, Chicago, San Francisco..." And renders such a long list of destinations unnecessary. But no, we're the ones with the cluttered signs....
It takes less space and denies motorists the most important information of it all. What's the point in that? People go to places after all, not in certain directions.
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Old April 13th, 2014, 02:18 AM   #443
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But are you actually going to THAT place? Probably not, maybe you are not going so far, or much further.. especially on a highway inside a major city, when your trip might be 25 km but you are still in the same place, just east or west.

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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Because it's on the Champlain Bridge (or its approaches) and therefore Federal. But I can't believe that signs that only read "Nord," "Sud," etc., are that incomprehensible to Americans. Or Ontarians. And - what people keep missing here - we're not posting ONLY route numbers and directions, but route numbers, directions and "control cities" (not enough of them to my taste and I hate the term "control city").

But it seems to me - back to the E19 example - that there would be occasions where it's useful to distinguish the E19 North from the E19 South, and as it is, Europeans have to say "the E19 towards Brussels" or "the E19 towards Antwerp" (terms which change their meaning once you pass the city in question, by the way), whereas "I-95 North" (or "Northbound") works for something like 1500 miles. Even in areas where it's really more northeast or even east (like Connecticut).

And the idea that such information is "totally worthless" is nothing more than another example of the hyperbole we've grown to know and love on this forum. :-)

I think it is important to note as you do that US style signing is really more like:

(95) NORTH Baltimore
(95) SOUTH Richmond

Whereas if you are in, say, Mechelen (I am amused that you picked roads I know well personally) you would see:

Antwerpen [E19]
Brussel [E19]

The US system only gives more information and not less, you can always navigate by city anyhow...
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Old April 13th, 2014, 05:03 AM   #444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Just that a cardinal direction in the local language is no use for the transit traffic while the locals know their way anyway.
Not necessarily. When I was in Quebec I didn't have much difficulty in figuring out what nord, sud, est, and ouest meant, though I don't speak French. And I don't think it's unreasonable to have to learn a few local words when you go to a country that speaks a different language. A lot more reasonable than expecting someone to memorize all the cities that could conceivably be posted along the route they need to follow.

And signing isn't really for locals who know their way. It's for people unfamiliar with the area that need guidance.
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Old April 13th, 2014, 06:43 AM   #445
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Nord / sud is probably pretty easy, but try Polnoc, Wschod, Zachod and Poludnie, or запада
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Old April 13th, 2014, 11:03 AM   #446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natomasken View Post
Not necessarily. When I was in Quebec I didn't have much difficulty in figuring out what nord, sud, est, and ouest meant, though I don't speak French. And I don't think it's unreasonable to have to learn a few local words when you go to a country that speaks a different language. A lot more reasonable than expecting someone to memorize all the cities that could conceivably be posted along the route they need to follow.

And signing isn't really for locals who know their way. It's for people unfamiliar with the area that need guidance.
One doesn't just go to other countries but transit some others on the way. It is rather impractical to start learning languages just for a short passage through a country where an unfamiliar language is spoken. A signage system that requires exactly this is a complete failure.

Navigating by control destinations, however, requires just general geographic knowledge. Something that is taught in schools all over the world.
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Old April 13th, 2014, 11:33 AM   #447
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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
The trailing zero in E-numbers below 10 was specifically introduced to remove any suggestion of greater importance. But of course, many of the countries involved failed to implement that part. The Scandinavian countries, which managed to retain 'their' pre-1975 numbers E4 and E6 on the basis of, amongst others, arguments around the costs of replacing existing signs, would of course be the first to refuse to pick up this part of the system.

What's wrong with that, Sweden/Scandinavia is the only place where many signs would have to be changed so it makes sense + once a road is known as something you don't just change it, at least not to a lousy number and not one ordered by foreigners you know.
If somebody ask us to change these now, I know we would just keep them as 6 and 4 with or without E.

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Old April 13th, 2014, 11:35 AM   #448
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What is wrong with it, is that Sweden and Norway signed up to the AGR themselves and, in doing so, committed themselves to signposting the routes as E04 and E06. This is not somebody asking you now, it is putting your money where your mouth is.

Quote:
One doesn't just go to other countries but transit some others on the way. It is rather impractical to start learning languages just for a short passage through a country where an unfamiliar language is spoken. A signage system that requires exactly this is a complete failure.
I've spent short times in places like China, Korea and Kazakhstan. I have bugger all knowledge of the languages spoken in those countries, or languages of the same family for that matter. But you'll be amazed how quickly one picks up words that appear on a lot of signs: the word for exit (something you'll need to come to terms with in every building too), cardinal directions. Also during a transit of a couple of hours, travellers have to come to terms with this basic understanding. The vast majority manages to do so, probably much more so than the percentage of motorists that manages to not only maintain that basic geographic knowledge of yours but to also apply it when there is little time to decide when first confronted with a particular focal point a minute before having to decide.

Nonetheless, of course signposting cardinal directions can never be the only information used to guide motorists. It is only a piece of ancillary information next to the route numbers and the focal points signposted (and this is then also the main criticism of the US system, where in my opinion focal points are neglected too much on the basis of an assumption that route number and cardinal direction will be enough to guide the motorist). As a piece of ancillary information, it is quite straightforward and not cluttering to actually signpost it; it is something that can be easily placed on the same line as the route number. And I consider it a piece of information preferable over another focal point. If there is space at all for another focal point, because unlike Flierfy represents there are so many instances where you just cannot signpost three focal points for one direction. When referring to a particular through route from within a town, for instance, there won't be room for more than one focal point per direction. Even from rural areas throughout Europe, you will commonly see motorways referred to one the basis of one focal point per direction (e.g. A3 Frankfurt / Köln).

Now that is an example of a motorway linking two major towns and every motorist in his right mind will be able to (i) locate those towns on a map and (ii) assume that they and not other towns will be the focal points of the route. Europe has many routes like that, where you can indeed speak of 'the most important destination of them all'. But it has an equally a great deal of major routes (and a much greater majority of minor routes) where, in at least one direction, there is no town that is so obviously important that it is the sole logical destination to be signposted for that direction. Take the Dutch A1 or A2 heading out of Amsterdam. They are routes that head to regions generally and there is no outstanding town that is the logical destination for the signs. How about a route like the Italian A26-northbound, where you won't come across any big towns? The German A7 travelling through sparesely populated regions? The British M4 as mentioned already, or a route like the M6 where they signpost The LAKES rather than Glasgow? Road numbers aided by cardinal directions help to overcome that type of gap, and they particularly do so on routes where the control cities are not completely obvious. Can I then please get the 'clutter' of a cardinal direction and a route number, as opposed to another medium sized town on my signs?
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Old April 13th, 2014, 01:34 PM   #449
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Quote:
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It takes less space and denies motorists the most important information of it all. What's the point in that? People go to places after all, not in certain directions.
The most important information for any motorist is their actual destination, or at least a major town close to it. People with a destination in the region think in terms of a larger city not too far down the road and will consider a town as far as 150 kilometer down the road as completely irrelevant for their journey. People with a destination at the other end of the country will argue that they need bigger towns further down the road, people travelling internationally would expect even bigger towns even further down the road (abroad if needs be). Road signs cannot offer all of these. Once you are on a through motorway that has no major turn-offs forthcoming, you might be able to signpost focal points from all three categories. But from within a town, on a ringroad, on a rural road that will intersect with a motorway, on duplexed motorways or on motorways that will split later on, you cannot. And thus you end up with the principle that signposting requires you to master the art of omitting places. Even if the places to be omitted are actually important and relevant in the minds of the people that have to use the signs.

And this is exactly where route numbers and cardinal directions come into play. They help the motorist to overcome the fact that places relevant for them had to be omitted from the signs. Maybe they are less relevant if these relevant towns are omitted in favour of a major town that one needs to pass anyway. But the less the town signposted is an obvious one, or if one has to change directions well before the town actually signposted, the more of an added value route numbers and cardinal directions are. It helps the motorist with limited knowledge of the area to reconcile the towns signposted with the actual situation. Much more so than adding destinations could.

I actually saw this happening live earlier this week, when my wife did the honours behind the wheel on our way from Utrecht to Dordrecht. Perfectly prepared that she had to turn off to the A15, my wife started to doubt when at the intersection between A27 and A15 the towns of Rotterdam and Nijmegen appeared as focal points for the opposite directions of the A15 and none of these truly appealed to her as logical for our journey. Now arguably this was the result of insufficient preparation and an assumption that I would help anyway. She should not only have prepared herself for switching to the A15 but also for the possible focal points of the A15. But I am also pretty sure that the addition of the cardinal directions 'West' and 'East' would have facilitated the decision. And also the preparation; it is so much more straightforward to prepare yourself for 'Turn off to the A15-West' rather than 'Turn off to the A15 towards Rotterdam or Dordrecht or Ridderkerk (whichever might be signposted)'. All it requires is just a few characters next to the route shield, much better than the clutter of adding a couple of destinations for the A15-Westbound.
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Old April 13th, 2014, 02:08 PM   #450
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What is wrong with it, is that Sweden and Norway signed up to the AGR themselves and, in doing so, committed themselves to signposting the routes as E04 and E06. This is not somebody asking you now, it is putting your money where your mouth is.
Of course it wont change to 04 or 06, that would clash with our lingo and the routes are borderline culture now, if not E4/E6 it will go back to Route 1 & 2 again.

I think it obvious small town/regions and even the national road administration in Sweden is using these E-nrs as a tool to get better funding and attention, it has little to do with international trade or helpful directions today.
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Old April 13th, 2014, 03:06 PM   #451
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Or Route 4 and Route 6. A lot of people wouldn't even notice and they two were kept unused in the national systems.
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Old April 13th, 2014, 03:25 PM   #452
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If somebody ask us to change these now, I know we would just keep them as 6 and 4 with or without E.
I would keep the E-numbers. Why? because if there is an E it means that the road is international, it leads you out of Sweden wether it's to a port with regular ferries, a landborder or a toll bridge.
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Old April 13th, 2014, 03:51 PM   #453
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Interestingly they never introduced 3-digit E-numbers in Sweden.
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Old April 13th, 2014, 04:45 PM   #454
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In most countries both E-numbering and A-numbering is used.

A1, A2 etc. refer to each nation's main motorways/highways while E-numbering is pan-European. So there are many A1 motorways across Europe, but only one E-75 or E-90... that crosses many countries. E-75 is one pan-european corridor. There are many A1s though...



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Old April 13th, 2014, 04:46 PM   #455
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E-75

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Old April 13th, 2014, 04:48 PM   #456
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Interestingly they never introduced 3-digit E-numbers in Sweden.
I wouldn't know of many candidates, except for Rv40. This would ensure that the quickest route between Stockholm and Göteborg finally obtains E-route status. Otherwise, there is some merit in the point made by NordikNerd that E-routes are the most important routes of Sweden, the strategic international corridors of the country. But there is also some relativity in it. Apart from one strategic international corridor not being part of the E-network (Rv40 between Göteborg and the E4), you can make clear distinctions between the E-routes in Sweden. The 'big three' of E4, E6 and E18 stands out. Then E20 and E22: not true international corridors but they might be seen as spurs of the main routes E4 and E6 to important regions. Further North, east-west E-routes like E10 and E12 have a pretty limited role, but they are indeed the key border crossings with Norway at that latitude. Which is then their own claim to fame. And then finally you have E45 and E16: former national routes running through regions that thought that their tourism sector could use an upgrade to E-route.

Anyway, I cannot really see Sweden moving away from its current system. Arguments to do so could rise in the future, if Sweden's motorway network expanded beyond E-routes and some regional motorways around main cities. Motorists might then be more interested to know whether a route is a quick one or a slower one. Once a distinction is made between expressway national routes and non-expressway national routes (say, the former get the prefix A while the latter retain Rv), it could be a next step to make similar distinctions among the E-routes. But as I mentioned, this is not the moment. First up, Sweden's non-E-route motorways would need a great deal of expansion!
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Old April 13th, 2014, 04:56 PM   #457
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A would never be used, M maybe.
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Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
I would keep the E-numbers. Why? because if there is an E it means that the road is international, it leads you out of Sweden wether it's to a port with regular ferries, a landborder or a toll bridge.
That's not using logic though, very few cars on E4/6 right now actually plan to leave and nobody would get lost just cause they changed.
I personally feel it's almost kinda insulting to use E-signs when I think about it, who pays for expansions, upkeep and maintenance of E-roads?
EU? UN?
No Swedish ppl do, so like they say, give credit where credit is due.

Let's use a version of the Tre Kronor shield, then put a big nr 1 etc on and sign it please. Inspiration below.
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Old April 13th, 2014, 05:22 PM   #458
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A would never be used, M maybe.


That's not using logic though, very few cars on E4/6 right now actually plan to leave and nobody would get lost just cause they changed.
I personally feel it's almost kinda insulting to use E-signs when I think about it, who pays for expansions, upkeep and maintenance of E-roads?
EU? UN?
No Swedish ppl do, so like they say, give credit where credit is due.
I would say there is quite a lot of international traffic between Sweden and Norway, especially now when many swedes are going there for work.

I don't see what maintennance costs have to do with the E-numbers. Each country pays for its own road repair. The E-roads have nothing to do with the EU and in continental europe few motorists don't even care about the E-signs, if there even are any. The E-roads are mainly for swedish motorists and I think we need the E-signs to distinguish the most important highways from the less important ones which are the national roads (riksvägar)

Renaming the E4 & E6 to the national roads 1 & 2 would give them the same type of signage as the national roads 9 & 11 and so forth. I wouldnt like to see that the 140 km road from Trelleborg to Tollarp shares the same type of sign as the 1590km road from Helsingborg to Haparanda.

Also the norwegians would probably have to rename their E6 into a single number if we changed our E6 into Nr 2.
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Old April 13th, 2014, 06:04 PM   #459
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I would say there is quite a lot of international traffic between Sweden and Norway, especially now when many swedes are going there for work.

I don't see what maintennance costs have to do with the E-numbers. Each country pays for its own road repair. The E-roads have nothing to do with the EU and in continental europe few motorists don't even care about the E-signs, if there even are any. The E-roads are mainly for swedish motorists and I think we need the E-signs to distinguish the most important highways from the less important ones which are the national roads (riksvägar)

Renaming the E4 & E6 to the national roads 1 & 2 would give them the same type of signage as the national roads 9 & 11 and so forth. I wouldnt like to see that the 140 km road from Trelleborg to Tollarp shares the same type of sign as the 1590km road from Helsingborg to Haparanda.

Also the norwegians would probably have to rename their E6 into a single number if we changed our E6 into Nr 2.
Agree.
Riksväg should be RIKS, here in Skåne many short roads are riksväg and it's 100% BS, only long routes between landskap should be RV(with new signs).
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Old April 13th, 2014, 07:26 PM   #460
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Of course it wont change to 04 or 06, that would clash with our lingo and the routes are borderline culture now, if not E4/E6 it will go back to Route 1 & 2 again.

I think it obvious small town/regions and even the national road administration in Sweden is using these E-nrs as a tool to get better funding and attention, it has little to do with international trade or helpful directions today.
E04 or E4, I think this doesn't matter. Look att E5 in France and Spain. In France it's signed E05 but in Spain it's signed E5

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