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Old April 13th, 2014, 07:33 PM   #461
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Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
I would say there is quite a lot of international traffic between Sweden and Norway, especially now when many swedes are going there for work.

I don't see what maintennance costs have to do with the E-numbers. Each country pays for its own road repair. The E-roads have nothing to do with the EU and in continental europe few motorists don't even care about the E-signs, if there even are any. The E-roads are mainly for swedish motorists and I think we need the E-signs to distinguish the most important highways from the less important ones which are the national roads (riksvägar)

Renaming the E4 & E6 to the national roads 1 & 2 would give them the same type of signage as the national roads 9 & 11 and so forth. I wouldnt like to see that the 140 km road from Trelleborg to Tollarp shares the same type of sign as the 1590km road from Helsingborg to Haparanda.

Also the norwegians would probably have to rename their E6 into a single number if we changed our E6 into Nr 2.
The E-signs working similar in Belgium. They only signs the E-roads the like Sweden and Denmark.

And Swedish roads is a part of the continental roads becuase we have the Öresund Bridge. And the roads are going from Sweden and Denmark to Germany. So we are not like Ireland for example.
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Old April 13th, 2014, 07:39 PM   #462
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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
I wouldn't know of many candidates, except for Rv40. This would ensure that the quickest route between Stockholm and Göteborg finally obtains E-route status. Otherwise, there is some merit in the point made by NordikNerd that E-routes are the most important routes of Sweden, the strategic international corridors of the country. But there is also some relativity in it. Apart from one strategic international corridor not being part of the E-network (Rv40 between Göteborg and the E4), you can make clear distinctions between the E-routes in Sweden. The 'big three' of E4, E6 and E18 stands out. Then E20 and E22: not true international corridors but they might be seen as spurs of the main routes E4 and E6 to important regions. Further North, east-west E-routes like E10 and E12 have a pretty limited role, but they are indeed the key border crossings with Norway at that latitude. Which is then their own claim to fame. And then finally you have E45 and E16: former national routes running through regions that thought that their tourism sector could use an upgrade to E-route.

Anyway, I cannot really see Sweden moving away from its current system. Arguments to do so could rise in the future, if Sweden's motorway network expanded beyond E-routes and some regional motorways around main cities. Motorists might then be more interested to know whether a route is a quick one or a slower one. Once a distinction is made between expressway national routes and non-expressway national routes (say, the former get the prefix A while the latter retain Rv), it could be a next step to make similar distinctions among the E-routes. But as I mentioned, this is not the moment. First up, Sweden's non-E-route motorways would need a great deal of expansion!
What we need in Sweden is a road-number from Stockholm to Copenhagen. A lot of people are using that road from Stockholm to Copenhagen. But from Stockholm to Helsingborg it's signed E4, from Helsingborg to Malmö it's signed E6/E20 and from Malmö to Copenhagen only E20. We need one number from Stockholm to Copenhagen, E-number or another number. Or just one number from Stockholm to Danish border. But the numbers now from Stockholm to Copenhagen is nog good.
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Old April 13th, 2014, 09:28 PM   #463
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It takes less space and denies motorists the most important information of it all. What's the point in that? People go to places after all, not in certain directions.
How many people getting onto a given Autobahn are really going to the fourth place on the sign?
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Old April 13th, 2014, 09:31 PM   #464
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Nord / sud is probably pretty easy, but try Polnoc, Wschod, Zachod and Poludnie, or запада
So invent symbols. You all like symbols, right? A little compass-like thing with an arrow pointing up, down, left or right, according to the appropriate approximate direction.

There. Problem solved.
You* can even, a week after they're adopted, start picking on Americans for not having adopted them yet.

*Not you personally, Kanadzie.
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Old April 13th, 2014, 10:03 PM   #465
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such will work good in NA and EU but in southern countries they will complain because it should be South at the top and North at the bottom and it is legacy of colonialist dogs and yanqui imperalism (I am thinking much Maduro here )

In reality though, with the ubiquitousness of GPS, probably we can just remove all signs altogether. Maybe it will be cost-savings...
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Old April 13th, 2014, 10:30 PM   #466
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I don't think so, since even with in-car navigation motorists will want some form of reassurance that they are on the right way. But then again, that might be something that route number and cardinal direction can do in a much simpler form that signs with plenty of destinations on them. And yes, it might involve a symbol per cardinal direction. I already saw the symbols in China.

Quote:
How many people getting onto a given Autobahn are really going to the fourth place on the sign?
Most of them, since on German signs the most distant town sits at the top and the nearest town signposted sits at the bottom.
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Old April 13th, 2014, 11:21 PM   #467
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I agree on the reassurance, but that is probably something about the typical Europe-style that is worse... in US road typical that as soon as you enter the motorway, you'll have a route number and direction shield at the end of the offramp, while in Europe you are lucky to only get that stupid /=\ thing Sometimes you get a sign with destinations, distances and a route number but not every time... it's convenient especially on some convoluted interchange designs (like toll roads with so many trumpets where you lose your sense of direction) in case you end up the wrong way.
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Old April 13th, 2014, 11:30 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
in US road typical that as soon as you enter the motorway, you'll have a route number and direction shield at the end of the offramp, while in Europe you are lucky to only get that stupid /=\ thing Sometimes you get a sign with destinations, distances and a route number but not every time...
In some countries (if not most) you will find such signs at every interchange. In PL, CZ, H for example.
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Old April 13th, 2014, 11:53 PM   #469
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How many people getting onto a given Autobahn are really going to the fourth place on the sign?
You mean the first. It's probably very few of all motorists passing the sign but at least some of all who actually pay attention to it. The point, however, is that the control destinations describe the course of the road by fixed locations. That is useful even for motorists who don't reach each of the mentioned places.

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So invent symbols. You all like symbols, right? A little compass-like thing with an arrow pointing up, down, left or right, according to the appropriate approximate direction.
We don't need to invent a symbol. We just stick to the proven system which we've got. It worked for centuries. There is no need to change it.
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Old April 14th, 2014, 07:52 AM   #470
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What we need in Sweden is a road-number from Stockholm to Copenhagen. A lot of people are using that road from Stockholm to Copenhagen. But from Stockholm to Helsingborg it's signed E4, from Helsingborg to Malmö it's signed E6/E20 and from Malmö to Copenhagen only E20. We need one number from Stockholm to Copenhagen, E-number or another number. Or just one number from Stockholm to Danish border. But the numbers now from Stockholm to Copenhagen is nog good.
So just drop the E-numbering system and then you have a freedom to invent any numbering scheme you want. Now you are bound to the decisions of the United Nations.
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Old April 14th, 2014, 09:05 AM   #471
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Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
We don't need to invent a symbol. We just stick to the proven system which we've got. It worked for centuries. There is no need to change it.
Your so-called proven system came into being by being open to innovations. Over the years, I've seen a few making their way into the German system, which thankfully has remained far from unaltered during all these centuries. But of course, any newly proposed change that could be considered now is a barbaric one that 'Das Volk von Dichter und Denker' should be spared from. You should organise book burnings on your town squares to prevent such horror to be ever discussed.
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Old April 14th, 2014, 10:21 AM   #472
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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
What is wrong with it, is that Sweden and Norway signed up to the AGR themselves and, in doing so, committed themselves to signposting the routes as E04 and E06. This is not somebody asking you now, it is putting your money where your mouth is.
Well...

In the real life, the member countries have committed to nothing. The main guidelines are that if the E roads are signed, the sign shall be rectangular, and coloured white on green.

To be exact, the routes are not E04 and E06 but E 04 and E 06.

The interpretation varies across the counties. There are eight countries where the numbers 01-09 are assigned:

- Ireland. Not a member to the agreement.
- UK. One of the original members but never ratified (Sic!)
- Portugal. The only one displaying the leading zero.
- France. Displays the space between E and the number.
- Spain. Putting a dash between E and the number.
- Norway. Displays the space between E and the number.
- Sweden. E and number without a space in between
- Finland. As Sweden
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Old April 14th, 2014, 10:35 AM   #473
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Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
I would keep the E-numbers. Why? because if there is an E it means that the road is international, it leads you out of Sweden wether it's to a port with regular ferries, a landborder or a toll bridge.
In addition to the E roads, the following numbered roads lead from Sweden to Norway: 165, 166, 61, 62, 66, 70, 84, 322, 336, 340, 342, and 95. The roads 404, 403, 402, and 98 lead from Sweden to Finland. In addition, there are several lower-class roads leading from Sweden to Norway being numbered on the Norwegian side, thus being of some importance. You do not recognize these roads leaving out of Sweden?

The E roads in Sweden is somewhat a hot topic. Sweden has recognized the need to have a two-tier classification for the main roads (like in Finland: the "red" roads 1-29 and the "yellow" ones 40-98), and they are (mis)using the E road system for that purpose. That explains the enormous noise about the numbering reform of the AGR-1975 agreement, and putting much effort on convincing the member countries to allow signing narrow and windy forest paths as E roads (E16 and E45).
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Old April 14th, 2014, 11:07 AM   #474
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In addition to the E roads, the following numbered roads lead from Sweden to Norway: 165, 166, 61, 62, 66, 70, 84, 322, 336, 340, 342, and 95. The roads 404, 403, 402, and 98 lead from Sweden to Finland. In addition, there are several lower-class roads leading from Sweden to Norway being numbered on the Norwegian side, thus being of some importance. You do not recognize these roads leaving out of Sweden?
Well, the E-roads are more important while they usually both start and end at a borderpoint/ferry terminal.

Those roads you mention 61, 62, 66 sure lead to a border but they begin in cities like Karlstad, Västerås and Enköping which are far away from being international hubs like Helsingborg and Trelleborg.
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Old April 14th, 2014, 11:37 AM   #475
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Sure enough, but if proximity to the most-used gateways to the nation is a criterion, can we please discuss what makes these roads stand out over E10, E12 and E14? Not all of those latter routes make their way to a ferry port either.

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- Ireland. Not a member to the agreement.
Ireland is not a party to the AGR, but it does signpost E-numbers, using the trailing zero where relevant. They also use a dash between the E and the number.


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Old April 14th, 2014, 12:43 PM   #476
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Newer signs in Spain display the trailing zero, in addition to the dash: https://maps.google.es/maps?ll=42.12...3.26,,0,-14.07
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Old April 14th, 2014, 03:47 PM   #477
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Sure enough, but if proximity to the most-used gateways to the nation is a criterion, can we please discuss what makes these roads stand out over E10, E12 and E14? Not all of those latter routes make their way to a ferry port either.


Ireland is not a party to the AGR, but it does signpost E-numbers, using the trailing zero where relevant. They also use a dash between the E and the number.


(photo from Wikipedia)
Kilometers instead of miles in Ireland?
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Old April 14th, 2014, 03:49 PM   #478
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What's up with the dash? E 1 is short for European route 1. No dash. Where does the dash come from? Why no M-11? Motorway-11? Or Autopista-1, Autobahn-7 or Autoroute-16?
And the trailing zero is utterly stupid. They might as well throw in whatever technical info they can while at it. [E-01, section 3, km 114]. No-one is going to confuse this with the equally stupid E 001 somewhere in Asia.

Who numbers things in real life with trailing zeros? I live in house 008 in street so and so? I do understand sorting with databases and computers dealing with multiple digits and zeroes, 1,10,11 ... 19,2,20, and so on, THEN 01 makes sense.

On a road sign? Not so much!

CONSISTENCY!

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Old April 14th, 2014, 04:00 PM   #479
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Kilometers instead of miles in Ireland?
Yes
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Old April 14th, 2014, 04:08 PM   #480
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What's up with the dash? E 1 is short for European route 1. No dash. Where does the dash come from? Why no M-11? Motorway-11? Or Autopista-1, Autobahn-7 or Autoroute-16?
And the trailing zero is utterly stupid. They might as well throw in whatever technical info they can while at it. [E-01, section 3, km 114]. No-one is going to confuse this with the equally stupid E 001 somewhere in Asia.

Who numbers things in real life with trailing zeros? I live in house 008 in street so and so? I do understand sorting with databases and computers dealing with multiple digits and zeroes, 1,10,11 ... 19,2,20, and so on, THEN 01 makes sense.

On a road sign? Not so much!

CONSISTENCY!
There are many sort of sign an E-road with only one number:
E1
E 1
E-1
E01
E 01
E-01

Are there more versions?
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