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Old April 14th, 2014, 04:18 PM   #481
Penn's Woods
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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Sure enough, but if proximity to the most-used gateways to the nation is a criterion, can we please discuss what makes these roads stand out over E10, E12 and E14? Not all of those latter routes make their way to a ferry port either.


Ireland is not a party to the AGR, but it does signpost E-numbers, using the trailing zero where relevant. They also use a dash between the E and the number.


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Newer signs in Spain display the trailing zero, in addition to the dash: https://maps.google.es/maps?ll=42.12...3.26,,0,-14.07
The term is "leading" zero. Sorry.
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Old April 14th, 2014, 04:19 PM   #482
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Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
You mean the first. It's probably very few of all motorists passing the sign but at least some of all who actually pay attention to it. The point, however, is that the control destinations describe the course of the road by fixed locations. That is useful even for motorists who don't reach each of the mentioned places.


We don't need to invent a symbol. We just stick to the proven system which we've got. It worked for centuries. There is no need to change it.
Centuries? Come now.

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Your so-called proven system came into being by being open to innovations. Over the years, I've seen a few making their way into the German system, which thankfully has remained far from unaltered during all these centuries. But of course, any newly proposed change that could be considered now is a barbaric one that 'Das Volk von Dichter und Denker' should be spared from. You should organise book burnings on your town squares to prevent such horror to be ever discussed.
LOL. Over the top, but LOL.
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Old April 14th, 2014, 04:21 PM   #483
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Originally Posted by Skyline_ View Post
Kilometers instead of miles in Ireland?
And that's so important to you?
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Old April 14th, 2014, 04:38 PM   #484
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And that's so important to you?
Yes... It is another metric victory over the imperial system.
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Old April 14th, 2014, 04:42 PM   #485
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And why does that matter to you? I really don't get this obsession with uniformity.

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Old April 14th, 2014, 04:53 PM   #486
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And why does that matter to you? I really don't get this obsession with uniformity.

Because uniformity is important. Can you imagine half the US to post distance/speed signs in miles and the other half in kilometers? I guess not.
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Old April 14th, 2014, 05:05 PM   #487
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The U.S. is a single nation-state. Greece and Ireland aren't. Are you the one who was complaining some years back that it's "dangerous" that the British don't drive on the right? (It was certainly someone from Greece who'd just been to London and apparently found it traumatizing.) Personally, I have no trouble adjusting to a different system when I cross into Canada.
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Old April 14th, 2014, 07:13 PM   #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uppsala View Post
There are many sort of sign an E-road with only one number:
E1
E 1
E-1
E01
E 01
E-01

Are there more versions?
The most common one: no sign.
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Old April 14th, 2014, 08:31 PM   #489
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The U.S. is a single nation-state. Greece and Ireland aren't. Are you the one who was complaining some years back that it's "dangerous" that the British don't drive on the right? (It was certainly someone from Greece who'd just been to London and apparently found it traumatizing.) Personally, I have no trouble adjusting to a different system when I cross into Canada.
The EU is not a nation-state of course but uniformity is definitely positive. No, it wasn't me who complained about driving on the left side of the road.
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Old April 14th, 2014, 09:47 PM   #490
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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Ireland is not a party to the AGR, but it does signpost E-numbers, using the trailing zero where relevant.
On confirmation signs only.

BTW, the E 01 is a justification of the madness of the system. Starting at Seville on Spain, running through Portugal, and again in Spain ending at the port of Ferrol. Then there is a gap of 1000 km over sea without any connection. Then it enters a country not being a member of the E road system, and finally ends in a country being a member but not participating.

And everything because somebody got an idea to create a similar grid as in the US.
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Old April 14th, 2014, 09:59 PM   #491
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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Sure enough, but if proximity to the most-used gateways to the nation is a criterion, can we please discuss what makes these roads stand out over E10, E12 and E14? Not all of those latter routes make their way to a ferry port either.
E12 does. It is a route between Helsinki, Finland and Mo i Rana, Norway. Ferry connection Vaasa-Umeå.

The funny road is E45. It ends up at the Finnish-Swedish border. Finland has almost totally ignored the road, and there is a numbering gap of 800 meters between the endpoint of E45 in Sweden and E8 in Finland. Finland has not been keen on making forest paths to E roads.

https://maps.google.fi/maps?q=karesu...vanto&t=m&z=14

The attitude on the Finnish side is reflected by this view:

https://maps.google.fi/maps?q=karesu...146.41,,0,1.57
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Old April 14th, 2014, 10:09 PM   #492
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E45 makes sense as it is the only long-distance north-south route through inland Sweden, even though it runs through some pretty remote areas with low traffic volumes.
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Old April 14th, 2014, 10:51 PM   #493
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
E45 makes sense as it is the only long-distance north-south route through inland Sweden, even though it runs through some pretty remote areas with low traffic volumes.
Or they could just let it stay riksväg 45, but sign it all the way like E45.
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Old April 14th, 2014, 11:09 PM   #494
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E12 does. It is a route between Helsinki, Finland and Mo i Rana, Norway. Ferry connection Vaasa-Umeå.
I acknowledged as much in my post (but rather implicitly, by saying that not all of those northerly routes connected to a ferry). In any event, it is a ferry that is hardly a key gateway to Sweden in the way the ferry ports of Stockholm, Göteborg, Helsingborg and Trelleborg are, or the bridge at Malmö. Of course any numbers game works out differently that far to the North, but at roughly one sailing a day and with the town of Umeå serviced by the E4 anyway, you sense that the hinterland route into Norway formed more of a justification than the ferry. E12 in Finland is also a bit of a strange animal, serving as a North-South route.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
E 01 is a justification of the madness of the system. Starting at Seville on Spain, running through Portugal, and again in Spain ending at the port of Ferrol. Then there is a gap of 1000 km over sea without any connection. Then it enters a country not being a member of the E road system, and finally ends in a country being a member but not participating.
For what it's worth: since the UK never ratified the AGR, you cannot truly consider them a member / contracting state. Not that this prevents the UK from trying to influence AGR-related decisions via its membership of UNECE.

I'm never really sure what drove the routing of E01. It is not a reference route that should run cross-continent to keep the grid in place, and I guess that it is the only non-reference route tied to a ferry connection that never existed and won't ever exist. Maybe they would have given the Irish section and the Iberian section separate numbers, hadn't it been for a shortage in two-digit numbers available before the westernmost reference route E05. While both sections seem just to long to trick a bit and treat them as (the extension of) an East-West route with an even number.
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Old April 14th, 2014, 11:15 PM   #495
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E45 makes sense as it is the only long-distance north-south route through inland Sweden, even though it runs through some pretty remote areas with low traffic volumes.
Sweden took rather an arrogant approach at UNECE while negotiating the extension of E45. They did not discuss the case with Finland even if the plan was to extend the road up to the Finnish soil. That caused some irritation. Sweden made a mistake by proposing the endpoint being Karesuando. It is the name of the Swedish side of the twin village. The name of the Finnish side is Kaaresuvanto. Finland took no action to help Sweden to correct the mistake, and got a reason to ignore the road saying the extension was an internal matter to Sweden: If they want to make a forest path to the most distant village in the country an E road, let them to do so.

Afterwards, Sweden has tried to push Finland and Norway to extend the E45 numbering over the current roads 21/E8 and 93 to Alta. Both Finland and Norway have smiled sarcastically to this proposal.
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Old April 14th, 2014, 11:42 PM   #496
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But here's the point. E 45 does make sense in rural Sweden. But through Hamburg? And the spine of Germany? Should have a lower number. Just as the Germans called it Autobahn 7, not 75.

Everyone has to agree that the system has to make sense. E 1 should be Paris-Berlin or similar. Someone mentioned that the Interstate system also has double digit important routes, but they do at least make sense of the numbering system. Also, it's applied over a "rectangular" country, which makes it easy. Compared to the current E-routes, which has been made in Excel, by someone with a ruler and no understanding for the concept of oceans.
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Old April 15th, 2014, 02:02 AM   #497
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Sweden took rather an arrogant approach at UNECE while negotiating the extension of E45. They did not discuss the case with Finland even if the plan was to extend the road up to the Finnish soil. That caused some irritation. Sweden made a mistake by proposing the endpoint being Karesuando. It is the name of the Swedish side of the twin village. The name of the Finnish side is Kaaresuvanto. Finland took no action to help Sweden to correct the mistake, and got a reason to ignore the road saying the extension was an internal matter to Sweden: If they want to make a forest path to the most distant village in the country an E road, let them to do so.

Afterwards, Sweden has tried to push Finland and Norway to extend the E45 numbering over the current roads 21/E8 and 93 to Alta. Both Finland and Norway have smiled sarcastically to this proposal.
E45 in Sweden is special. At one time there were several numbers there. It was not counted as one road but many. Since there were many campaigns for the road would get a single number. That number was 45 or Riksväg 45. But there they were not satisfied. That road would be an E-road also. It is believed that more tourists will find the way if it is an E-road. So therefore extended the E45 from Gothenburg and up to Karesuando.

I think they "forgot" to ask Finland to connect to E8 in Kaaresuvanto. And if they thought of Finland as they thought enough to Finland would resolve the matter themselves. But Finland did not. So therefore lacks the E45 connection to E8. It is less than 1 km missing between E45 and E8.

Finland does not have the same interest as Sweden for the E-roads. So they probably think most of the gap between E45 and E8 is comical and Sweden to blame themselves
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Old April 15th, 2014, 03:01 AM   #498
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Because uniformity is important. Can you imagine half the US to post distance/speed signs in miles and the other half in kilometers? I guess not.
But half the signs in Ireland were in still in miles for years after the metric system was 'adopted', it took 35 years to cut over fully and even 40 years later people still use miles despite their not being on signage any more.

What is far more important is whether one drives on the right side of the road...or the wrong side.
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Old April 15th, 2014, 09:35 AM   #499
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Everyone has to agree that the system has to make sense. E 1 should be Paris-Berlin or similar. Someone mentioned that the Interstate system also has double digit important routes, but they do at least make sense of the numbering system. Also, it's applied over a "rectangular" country, which makes it easy. Compared to the current E-routes, which has been made in Excel, by someone with a ruler and no understanding for the concept of oceans.
I very much appreciate that last statement, and would add that not only Europe's seas but also the Alps impose difficulties when creating a rectangular system. However, it is equally tricky to go for a system where you just attach a low number to the most important corridors. This is Europe, you know, where the capitals considering themselves important enough for at least one single-digit number is higher than the the number of logical single digit route numbers on offer. Back in the 1950s, when only Western European countries bothered and when the network of main traffic arteries with much less dense, this could work. We then had E-routes between 1 and 10 that were indeed perceived to be the main arteries of the network. But as the network of arteries got denser, the existing routes with low numbers serving the main cities were basically bypassed by much quicker routes available between the termini of the original route (just look at the former routing of the lowest E-numbers). Besides, the system was expanded East, and the most important of routes in those areas just got the higher numbers.

So when they had to rationalise the numbers in 1975, you can see why they stepped away from the 'low numbers to the most important routes' principle, as the parties would never have been able to reach an agreement. By opting for the reference route system, which is much more binary, the discussion could at least be narrowed a bit. Surely the important numbers could still serve capitals, but the number of such roads had its boundaries and there were also bounderies as to the direction of those routes.

Still, you do see that the reference routes in the system happen to be pretty important routes that do serve capitals. Many of the routes ending with 0 or 5 took over from old routes with low numbers. Most European capitals are served by at least one reference route, and often it is those capitals that serve as the intersection between one North-South reference route and one East-West reference route (at least if you look at towns that were a capital in 1975; I appreciate that Europe has seen a lot of new capitals since). In many other respects, the reference routes have been historical backbone routes through the countries crossed: E15 which picks up the Route du Soleil in France, E35 as a collection of key motorways in Germany, Switzerland and Italy, E45 picking up the key German connection between Hamburg and Munich and the Brenner Pass, E50 picking up the historical Via Carolina and E30 forming a crucial route from West to East.

It is in some ways unfortunate that this system could not be continued into Scandinavia. E45 was supposed to be extended via Oslo and the Norwegian backbone route, and E55 was supposed to be extended via Stockholm and the Swedish backbone route. Would have made for decent E45s and E55s, wouldn't it? But first the Swedes refused and then they managed to get E45 over this backwater road. Which might make sense on a map, but which in practice will hardly be used due to the area being very thinly populated and the E4 motorway generally offering routes that are much quicker despite the detour. Your response shows that it dilutes the entire system, and I tend to agree. If the general public can't see that the routes with the reference numbers are the most important of Europe, something has gone wrong. Though it would be wrong to blame this on the E45 in Sweden only. E45 in Italy anyone? E25 generally?
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Old April 15th, 2014, 10:56 AM   #500
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But half the signs in Ireland were in still in miles for years after the metric system was 'adopted', it took 35 years to cut over fully and even 40 years later people still use miles despite their not being on signage any more.
Better late than never!
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