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Old April 15th, 2014, 11:07 AM   #501
MattiG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
I very much appreciate that last statement, and would add that not only Europe's seas but also the Alps impose difficulties when creating a rectangular system.
Europe is triangel-like, narrow in the north and becoming wider in the south. That is why the conic map projections are usually used when showing the whole Europe. I have a proposal which is even more theoretical than the current one: Just follow the Lat/Lon grid at the spacing of two degrees. The spacing is about 220 km at N-S direction, and at the W-E direction it varies from about 80 km (north) to 180 km (south). The roads E2-E32 run W-E and E1-E49 N-S.



BTW, it is good to remember why there is a network of E roads. It was the initiative on United Nations to support the recovery of Europe at the post-WWII times. Much of the infrastructure in the Central Europe was ruined, and the roads in the Scandinavian countries were rather primitive rural roads. The initial agreement delivered guidelines on how to build decent roads, thus being a set of standards. Which was useful 65 years ago, does not necessarily bring much value nowadays. I am confident that Europe is cabable on building its own road networks without guidance of the UN, and nobody really suffers severely from the road numbers changing at the borders.
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Old April 15th, 2014, 01:35 PM   #502
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Fully agree on the last point. There is a reason why UNECE never truly gets involved with events in the 'old' member states and has embarked on an expansion into Central Asia. In that area, but also in the Caucasus, there is much more of a job to do when it comes to creating decent transport corridors.

Thanks for posting the latitude/longitude-based map, which offers a pretty interesting view. You kept one thing out of the equation (on purpose, presumably) and that is the much higher density of E-routes in the densely populated areas of Western Europe. Between the longitudes of Northern England and Berlin, you come across some 18 degrees of longitude for a jump between E05 and E55. Likewise, between the latitudes of Hamburg and Paris, you come across 6 degrees of latitude for a jump between E22 and E60. Partially this is the result of unconnected E-routes at the same longitude or latitude, but mostly this is the result from tightening the intervals to have the main population centres better served by E-routes. And rightly so.

But once you are outside of that densely populated area, you can see a parallel between the intervals of 2 degrees latitude and the E-routes in Northern Scandinavia. There is indeed an average interval of some 300 km between them, both between North-South routes (the backwater E45 has cut distances in half here) and between East-West routes. One might argue that this is just a measure of ensuring a minimum network coverage for everyone, even in those thinly populated areas. South of the latitude of Paris and East of the latitude of Berlin, it is more difficult to spot the use of intervals between E-routes. Geographical obstacles do not help here. But here, too, one might argue that there not many people will be more than 150 kilometers away from a two-digit E-route in each of the cardinal directions. Albeit that this interval starts to climb rapidly once you enter the CIS.
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Old April 15th, 2014, 02:42 PM   #503
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Of course Europe itself is on about Revision 3 of its own 'Euroroutes' nowadays.

The current revision ( the multimode version) is the clearest one. The Roman Numeral corridors ( V IV IX) in use from the fall of the Berlin Wall to 2012 or so are deprecated now.

9 Euro Corridors connecting the important bits only and covering rail road and river ( when available).

None of us really care if some road in a rural backwater is the E877 or not, but Europe was a much bigger place when the E Roads were invented and there was no low cost airline network back then. Nowadays we can fly cheaply from pretty much anywhere to anywhere and Europe is a much smaller place as well as a much safer place than it was 65 years ago.
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Old April 15th, 2014, 09:47 PM   #504
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Quote:
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None of us really care if some road in a rural backwater is the E877 or not, but Europe was a much bigger place when the E Roads were invented and there was no low cost airline network back then. Nowadays we can fly cheaply from pretty much anywhere to anywhere and Europe is a much smaller place as well as a much safer place than it was 65 years ago.
Weren't E-roads first estabilished in 1975?
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old April 15th, 2014, 10:40 PM   #505
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E Roads pre date the EU , they are more like a Marshall Plan era invention.
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Old April 15th, 2014, 10:41 PM   #506
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Cardinal directions in Sweden, very clean with no double-number for national route - oddly the Northbound is signed Uddevalla here instead of Oslo:
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Old April 15th, 2014, 11:24 PM   #507
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Weren't E-roads first estabilished in 1975?
No. The first agreement dates back to late 1950. It was signed by UK, France and Benelux. Later, 18 other countries joined. The current AGR agreement was signed in 1975, but the agreement came into effect no earlier than on 1983.

The text at https://treaties.un.org/doc/Treaties...h_XI_B_07P.pdf lists the initial network. It was updated several times, especially when the Scandinavian countries joined. For example, E4 was extended to Helsinki, and the E3 to the Finnish-Soviet Union border.

The 1975 version changed everything by introducing the current grid-based system. The new system was adopted slowly.

Sweden and Norway were not satisfied on the proposal, and withdrew their support from the AGR agreement in 1987, even if some changes to the 1975 plan were introduced in 1983. Instead, Sweden, Norway, and Finland created their own proposal which was accepted by the UNECE Inland Transport Committee in 1991. After agreeing on that amendment, those three countries signed the agreement.

The differences between the 1983 version and the 1991 one are the following (in Sweden, Norway and Finland):

- E10 Luleå-Kiruna-Å i Lofoten was introduced as a new W-E reference road (in the 1983 version, E20 was the lowest one).

- E75 Kemi-Tromsø was routed instead Kemi-Rovaniemi-Utsjoki. Tornio-Tromsø became E08.

- E18 was rerouted Newcastle-Kristiansand instead of Newcastle-Stavanger. E39 was moved from Germany (Giessen-Darmstadt) to Ålborg(Denmark)- Hirsthals(Denmark)- Kristiansand- Stavanger- Bergen- Ålesund- Trondheim.

- E20 Malmö-Ystad was routed to Malmö-Göteborg-Eskilstuna-Stockholm. E65 was extended from Ystad to Malmö. E37 Göteborg-Stockholm was dropped.

- E45 was replaced by E06 which was extended to Trelleborg in the south and to Kirkenes in the north (thus retaining the number E6).

- E55 Tornio-Stockholm-Trelleborg was dropped and replaced by E06 Trelleborg-Helsingborg and E04 Helsingborg-Stockholm-Tornio-Kemi (thus retaining the number E4).

- E69 was moved from the central Europe (Warzaw-Wiener Neustadt) to Olderfjord-Nordkapp.

- E22 was extended from Sassnitz to Trelleborg-Malmö-Kalmar-Norrköping

- E140 Sundsvall-Trondheim was renumbered to E14, thus filling the gap between E12 and E16

- E136 Bergen-Oslo was renumbered to E16, thus extending the original E16 Londonderry-Edinburgh across North Sea to Norway.

- E135 Drammen-Haugesund was renumbered to E134 (as it is mainly W-E oriented).

- E137 Dombås-Ålesund was renumbered to E136 (W-E oriented).

- E160 Turku-Kuopio was renumbered to E63.
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Old April 15th, 2014, 11:35 PM   #508
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Places I've driven:
North America: All US states except AK, ND, and SD; Canadian provinces of AB, BC, ON, and QC
Europe: AT, BE, CH, CZ, DE, DK, FR, HU (barely and by mistake); IT, LI, LU, NL, NO, SE, SK, and UK
Australia: ACT, NSW, VIC
Roadnerd over 40 years!

Last edited by Natomasken; April 15th, 2014 at 11:36 PM. Reason: question already answered
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Old April 15th, 2014, 11:44 PM   #509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
Cardinal directions in Sweden, very clean with no double-number for national route - oddly the Northbound is signed Uddevalla here instead of Oslo:
This is exactly what I was suggesting. It adds just two characters to the sign, hardly "cluttering" it, and provides information that would be useful, especially to a non-local who may not be familiar with where the control cities are in relation to their destination.
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Places I've driven:
North America: All US states except AK, ND, and SD; Canadian provinces of AB, BC, ON, and QC
Europe: AT, BE, CH, CZ, DE, DK, FR, HU (barely and by mistake); IT, LI, LU, NL, NO, SE, SK, and UK
Australia: ACT, NSW, VIC
Roadnerd over 40 years!
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Old April 15th, 2014, 11:53 PM   #510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
Cardinal directions in Sweden, very clean with no double-number for national route - oddly the Northbound is signed Uddevalla here instead of Oslo:
The problem arises when the names of the cardinal directions in the local language are unknown to the foreigners. 'E22 Ö' would definitely confuse them. Or 'E20ø' in Denmark.

Any educated guess what the letter 'E' stands for here:



No, it is not east. It is south.
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Old April 16th, 2014, 12:13 AM   #511
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wrong text
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Old April 16th, 2014, 12:14 AM   #512
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Quote:
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The problem arises when the names of the cardinal directions in the local language are unknown to the foreigners. 'E22 Ö' would definitely confuse them. Or 'E20ø' in Denmark.

I think signs with E20 Ö or E20ø only exists in Sweden and Denmark.
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Old April 16th, 2014, 12:29 AM   #513
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I think signs with E20 Ö or E20ø only exists in Sweden and Denmark.
It is an example only.

South =

D in Latvia
E in Finland
P in Poland
D in Hungary
L in Estonia
Z in the Netherlands
J in Czech

Etc. Fortunately, most countries have been wise enough to refrain from using such a one-letter cryptography.
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Old April 16th, 2014, 12:48 AM   #514
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Would it be too crazy to use North, South, East and West (in English) in the whole Europe? Maybe not alone, but below the corrispondent direction in the local language.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old April 16th, 2014, 07:29 AM   #515
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Would it be too crazy to use North, South, East and West (in English) in the whole Europe? Maybe not alone, but below the corrispondent direction in the local language.
I have nothing against it. But think about what happens when France enters the stage. They would insist the cardinal point 270 degrees being O instead of W. Then Poland says O is not possible because it overlaps with a ring road symbol. The UK has their own system in place and rejects all text-based schemes. Austria proposes replacing N-E-S-W scheme by cardinal directions 0-90-180-270 degrees, but Greece wants to have leading zeros in place. Belgium is not satisfied, because their network is not oriented by cardinal directions. Their proposal 0-45-90-135-180-225-270-315 is rejected at voting, because Sweden raises the issue 45 being overlapping with E45. Finally, the compromise proposed by Switzerland is approved: Let us use cute symbols. North is represented by a bear, south by a giraffe, east by a camel, and west by a fish. Everyone commits and claps their hands, until France enters the stage and says it wants to change the giraffe to an elephant.

In fact a symbol-based approach would be better aligned to the current European philosophy to avoid any text-based and language-bound elements in the signs. A compass rose could be an obvious choice, but it might be too complex a concept for a number of citizens.
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Old April 16th, 2014, 10:08 AM   #516
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And some final inspiration from Köln: the flasher made the sign look a bit weird, but look at the blue signs in particular.
Interesting picture, because it shows an exception to the German basic rule to not signpost by cardinal directions. In city centers where there is only a limited amount of space available, the exception is well justified.



The standard method in Germany is to signpost by destination. In addition, there is a notation of "n-roads", such as 15n, where n does not stand for nord but "neu", "new". Using these and one-letter signposting by cardinal direction would lead to a confusion.

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Old April 16th, 2014, 10:28 AM   #517
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The n-suffix in routes like the B15n is often not signposted. The suffix is used to facilitate a slow transition to a completely new alignment of the same route. Only when the new alignment is completed, the old road can be decommissioned. The end result should be that the new alignment gets the number of the old one. The signs on the new route are mostly already prepared for that end result, by simply not signposting the n-suffix.

Nonetheless, if Germany was ever to go down this route, it would be appropriate not to create route shields in Scandinavian style with the cardinal direction in it. Just to avoid people mistaking the cardinal direction for a suffix in a route number. Rather, the cardinal direction would need to be signposted next to the shield, like they already did in Köln. And as cardinal directions in German never take more than four characters, it would probably be easier for all anyway to just use the entire word rather than a single letter.
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Old April 16th, 2014, 12:45 PM   #518
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I have nothing against it. But think about what happens when France enters the stage.
Quite. In a nutshell the European Road sign Regime is a tad older than the E numbers but was formulated in the Geneva Protocol of 1949. The same working group in Geneva got around to E Numbers the following year after they finished the signs.....the Geneva Protocol standardised warning signs as a red border around white with black text for example.

Back in those days international treaties were written EQUALLY in French and in English ( 2 texts) and as the entire signage regime is driven by a UN Subcommittee and not by the EU the signage would have to be amended both in French and in English. You would not believe how many measures are blocked internationally by the French as they squabble over the French text. French, I would point out, was the international language of diplomacy before WW1.

One way of getting round the tower of babel effect ( and remembering the EU has around 20 working languages where the UN has only 2 ) is to use Pie slices to symbolise the four points of the compass.

This, for example could be 'All Directions'

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Old April 16th, 2014, 11:00 PM   #519
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I have never seen just the letter "K" for east, but -kelet in Hungary.
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Old April 17th, 2014, 12:56 AM   #520
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I'm really amused that you just... know, if there is a language squabble, it'll be the French starting it

Meanwhile in Canada they complain about how the French hardly speak French anymore and only English
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