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Old September 7th, 2010, 04:59 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth View Post
Take the E20 which passes near where I live in Liverpool. It 'arrives' via the port from Ireland and then uses the M62, jumps into the north sea to Scandinavia, from where it has a little swim in the Baltic towards Estonia and then Russia. Now, how much traffic on the M62 leaving Liverpool seriously ends up following this route, even as far as Denmark & Sweden, let alone Estonia & Russia? It's an utterly pointless designation.
How many traffic on the E30 on the continent seriously ends up following the entire route all the way to Omsk? Even within the US the number of drivers following the I-80 from coast to coast is very small. And still these routes bear one route number. The rationale behind long route numbers eventually goes beyond the actual use by drivers of the entire route number. In a grid system, numbers are the result of an east-west orientation or a north-south orientation at a particular place in the grid. If you have one east-west motorway in the UK and a further east-west motorway somewhere on the continent, then I don't mind that the two use one route number. Even if there is no ferry, as long as the two intertwine properly in the grid.

On the other hand, your point can be read as the question how much added value there is in designating an east-west route like the M62 as a European route. Probably as much as designating east-west routes in the deep South of Italy as such, in other words hardly any at all. But then you end up in the sense and nonsense of a E-system next to national numbers. Which I think is very much limited. I can imagine the either-or approach taken in Denmark, Sweden, Belgium and other countries. But I see little use in the Spanish system of always signposting local number AND E-number together. That's just a waste in my opinion.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 07:16 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
How many traffic on the E30 on the continent seriously ends up following the entire route all the way to Omsk?
True, but there will be traffic that goes some of the way, then traffic that gets on later and goes even further the way etc. It's a continuum and it probably benefits people even going just a fraction of the way, as they cross national borders. You cannot really say the same about the E20 and there really is no benefit whatsover of resigning the M62 as the E20. It looking good on a grid that doesn't fit well with the continent it's supposedly designed for is nowhere near a good enough reason.

I really don't think the UK, nor the Republic of Ireland need to be part of the scheme at all, to be frank. No more than Iceland anyway.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 07:31 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
But I see little use in the Spanish system of always signposting local number AND E-number together. That's just a waste in my opinion.
I agree. Estonia also signs both local AND E-numbers. And the ironic part is that the locals know neither of them...
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Old September 7th, 2010, 08:25 PM   #84
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It looking good on a grid that doesn't fit well with the continent it's supposedly designed for is nowhere near a good enough reason. I really don't think the UK, nor the Republic of Ireland need to be part of the scheme at all, to be frank. No more than Iceland anyway.
You're right on the grid point. A route should look good on the grid AND have European importance. And that's probably the main issue with an E-number for the M62. It does not attract the slightest bit of European through-traffic for which the E-system was designed. That being said, there are routes in the UK that would fit well in the E-system. But it would be routes from the ferry ports on the Channel coast to the North, and possibly an east-west route from the ferry ports on the East Anglia coast via London and the M4 to Wales. In other words, the current E30 and something like the E05 and the E15 (which I would reroute a bit).

In doing so, you only name routes with a certain European importance as E-routes. It should indeed not be relevant that the number of E-routes through the UK and Ireland is so much limited and/or that a route like the E20 does not have a continuation beyond Denmark. It's not a UK-only problem either. I believe that Italy, too, should be stripped of its even E-numbers for any routes south of Genova.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 09:01 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by RolexAL View Post
Albania joined the E-road cooperation since 2006.

E762 Tirana-Podgorica

E852 Ohrid-Tirana

E853 Ioannina – Albania

E86 Korçë-Florina

E851 Petrovac-Albania.
They could reroute the E65 through Albania. It has a weird routing in Montenegro and Serbia.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 10:05 PM   #86
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From an Eastern European point-of-view, there's one more aspect. Having a road bear an E-number makes it easier to seek EU co-funding when said road needs reconstruction or improvements. Applying for funding is arcane enough and needs mountains of paperwork; an E-number gives much-needed leverage.

I have a certain suspicion that this is, at least partly, the reason behind Estonian E263 and E264.

However -- there are definitely a lot of well-chosen E-routes which bear a lot of significance. Especially E67 -- Via Baltica -- is a very powerful symbol for the Baltics and the region's primary route to Western Europe.

That "E3" Silja Line earlier in this thread is absolutely adorable... I would love to see that practice put into use again, however unnecessary that might be. Since we already have E20 signposted to Stockholm, E67 to Helsinki and E265 to Kapellskär (with kilometrages given on distance signs, no less!), everything should be prepared and we could slap the same numbers on ferries, too.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 10:09 PM   #87
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Quote:
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They could reroute the E65 through Albania. It has a weird routing in Montenegro and Serbia.
E65 has many weird detours for instamce, why does it go to Prague? or to Rijeka? (although, it follows A1 route through Croatia now).
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Old September 7th, 2010, 10:31 PM   #88
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E05, E15 and E30 should definitely be signposted in the UK because it is possible to drive them end-to-end (E05: ferry from Southampton to Le Havre. E15: tunnel from Folkstone to Calais. E30: ferry from Felixstowe to Hoek van Holland).

E20 is a maybe. It is possible to travel Shannon to Hull (via Dublin-Liverpool ferry) but there's no ferry between Hull and Esbjerg.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 10:36 PM   #89
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The only place you can go by vehicle ferry from Southampton is the Isle of Wight. Felixstowe is also not an international ferry port, but a container port.

The E15 'ends' at Dover, but luckily there's a ferry from there to Calais.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 11:56 PM   #90
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The ferries to Hoek van Holland depart from Harwich, for which purpose there is a short deviation from the E30 to the port of Harwich. E32 must therefore be one of the shortest E-numbers, particularly in the two-digit section. One could of course argue that the E30 should not run to Felixstowe but to Harwich. But is it really worth it for the 250 (or so) cars that go onto the Hoek - Harwich ferry per day? Presumably Felixstowe gets to see more international traffic and is a more logical British terminus for the E30.

Southampton is, in my view, a useless British terminus for any E-route. But when the E05 hits the M6, it becomes a route that deserves an E-number in my view. But I do think that you should use a different number than E05 in that case.

For example:
E05 - terminates in Le Havre rather than continuing north.
E13 - becomes London (M25-M20 intersection, and intersection with the E15) - Birmingham - Glasgow (i.e. takes over the bulk of E05, just the deviation to Soton is replaced with a connector to the London orbital)
E15 - remains Dover - London, but then continues via the M1/A1(M)/A1 into Scotland
E30 - remains as is
All other E-numbers in Great Britain and Ireland to be discontinued.

In most case, that is short a shortening of an existing E-route. The number E24 will become available for use elsewhere. Could be used to clean up the mess that is called E22 on the continent. And E32 also becomes available. A number that could come in quite handy for a large clean-up in the Netherlands so that E25, E30 and E35 can be moved around a bit there.
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Old September 8th, 2010, 12:37 AM   #91
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E32 is only 30 km long and nowhere signposted as such: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_route_E32
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Old September 8th, 2010, 01:10 AM   #92
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E33 and E46 are also rather useless numbers.
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Old September 8th, 2010, 01:11 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGL View Post
They could reroute the E65 through Albania. It has a weird routing in Montenegro and Serbia.
E-roads in Albania are still inofficial, because Albania still hasn't ratified the European Agreement on Main International Traffic Arteries treaty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpo...ational_Routes
http://www.unece.org/trans/conventn/...S-SC1-384e.pdf

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Originally Posted by Uppsala View Post
Now I know why E653 stops at the Hungarian-Slovenian border. Because they mistook Maribor (second Slovenian city) for the Hungarian border village of Tornyiszentmiklós. (not to mention they misspelt it) They also think Letenye is in Croatia.
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Old September 8th, 2010, 02:34 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Southampton is, in my view, a useless British terminus for any E-route. But when the E05 hits the M6, it becomes a route that deserves an E-number in my view. But I do think that you should use a different number than E05 in that case.
Perhaps Portsmouth is better, with the ferries (including to Le Havre) than Southampton, but for international traffic, the south coast ports require more help from the E-road system than London - London is signed all the way from north of Birmingham, whereas Southampton and Portsmouth get a "The SOUTH" consistently from M40 junction 9. If you are happy with a Euroroute heading to Felixstowe, then Southampton is nearly as big a container port, and a much bigger settlement, with other big settlements nearby.

Also, because of the radial nature of UK road numbers, there's 3 numbers from Birmingham to Southampton (well the edges of to edges of). For London there's just one. It's, if you are to cosign national and E numbers, more worth it if the E numbers cover several national routes, rather than just duplicate them.

Given the E road grid is trying to replicate, somewhat, the interstate grid, then, like that system, then transcontinental, and even inter-state traffic isn't the sole aim of the system. How much national importance is that I-27 exists? It's a fairly important road in Texas that would be a long 3di if it weren't for the spare numbers around that area. Heh, there's even duplicates, so there's no reason, on interstate logic, that you can't have E07, E11, E42, etc in the UK (double bonus due to the disconnection). Likewise all sorts of 3-digits serving very regional routes, so that like before the 1983 changes, the country could be densely packed with them for no reason other than it looks good on the map.
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Old September 8th, 2010, 06:46 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Also, because of the radial nature of UK road numbers, there's 3 numbers from Birmingham to Southampton (well the edges of to edges of). For London there's just one. It's, if you are to cosign national and E numbers, more worth it if the E numbers cover several national routes, rather than just duplicate them.
I do not believe in co-signing two numbering systems. One of the two systems signposted is always a waste, and it adversely affects the legibility of the signs. So when I redesign part of the E-grid, I think in terms that the E-number should be capable of replacing the national road number altogether (not that I actually see this happen, but just for the fun of it). And those routes replaced should then also be the main traffic arteries of the country in question. When you replace national numbers with E-numbers, covering as many national numbers as possible can no longer be an objective in itself.

While I fully see your point about the role of Southampton as an important container port, I gave London the nod as the terminus of the E13 because in doing so you follow a logical route rather than having one strange TOTSO somewhere close to Oxford. The E30 to Felixstowe is a different story, because that is only about a choice between two ports in East Anglia, rather than one between two different parts of the country (namely the London Orbital vs. the port of Southampton, or Portsmouth). But well, surely this all also boils down to personal taste.
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Old September 8th, 2010, 11:02 PM   #96
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I think the most reasonable on the Balkans are E80 (in the part Istanbul - Sofia - Nish) and E`90 (via Egnatia - Istanbul).
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Old September 9th, 2010, 02:28 PM   #97
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Is it used in your country? Do people refer to E-numbers or in traffic information?

Oh yeah, it is used. Incorrectly. Our journalists and reporters fail very often to distinguish between national numbering and E-numbering. For example they say: “Two people have died in car accident on the road E7”. They don’t realize that National Road 7 (in Polish: Droga Krajowa 7) is a stretch of E77. The same about NR 2 (DK2) and E30: we have “brilliant” results in news as “national road E2”.
We never mention the E numbering on motorways/mainroads never refer to it in any ways(but we have them on the signs) we always refer to the M-numbering and the direction or Km. in Hungary.
On the other hand it´s always mentiond in news with directions in Denmark.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 11:30 AM   #98
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E roads often doesn't make any sense. Just look at E22

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Old September 10th, 2010, 12:46 PM   #99
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E roads often doesn't make any sense. Just look at E22

When E22 was new there was a ferry route from Immingham to Amsterdam, but i think it's closed now. But a ferry route from Norrköping to Ventspils has never existed.
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Old September 10th, 2010, 07:54 PM   #100
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But a ferry route from Norrköping to Ventspils has never existed.
Ferry line Ventspils - Nynäsham (basically a neighboring town to Norrköping) exists
http://www.scandlines.lt/en/time_veny
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