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Old September 11th, 2010, 06:36 PM   #121
Fuzzy Llama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArthurK View Post
About the E22...If the E22 would be rerouted via the A6 (which is just completed in the eighties), it would make sense as a logical route between Amsterdam and Hamburg, and continuing to Sweden.
No, it wouldn't. If one wanted to drive from Hamburg to Stockholm, he'd use the Fehmarn ferry and Öresund bridge, it is so much faster and more convenient. E22 doesn't make sense, period.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 12:31 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Fuzzy Llama View Post
No, it wouldn't. If one wanted to drive from Hamburg to Stockholm, he'd use the Fehmarn ferry and Öresund bridge, it is so much faster and more convenient. E22 doesn't make sense, period.
Some people use the Fehmarn ferry but some use the Great Belt bridge instead.

If someone wants to go from Hamburg to Stockholm without any ferry, they take A7/E45 from Hamburg to the Danish border, E45 from Danish border to Kolding, E20 from Kolding to Malmö over Great Belt bridge and Öresund bridge, E6/E20 from Malmö to Helsingborg and finally E4 from Helsingborg to Stockholm. It's more people than we can belive are going that way.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 01:27 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Verso View Post
What about here, f.e.? I-85 and US 15 at the same time.
I think the words you're looking for is concurrency or duplex. Route duplication for means two different roads have the same number in the state/country(i.e having I-24 and US-24 in Illinois).

Last edited by urbanlover; September 13th, 2010 at 03:32 AM.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 02:08 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by CNGL View Post
Not really... only a load of stickers, just like they made when they renumbered the A-23 exits North of Saragossa (Also signed as E07).
The E07 is 250km long, the E 4 is 1590 km and runs through most of sweden. Also its not only the signs following the roads that need a sticker also the signs pointing out the direction to the E4.

The stickers need to be reflecting and long lasting in heat and extreme cold.


Its just not a good idea.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 02:29 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Dahlis View Post
The E07 is 250km long, the E 4 is 1590 km and runs through most of sweden. Also its not only the signs following the roads that need a sticker also the signs pointing out the direction to the E4.

The stickers need to be reflecting and long lasting in heat and extreme cold.


Its just not a good idea.
The road in Spain is not signed E07, it's signed E7. The road is signed E7 in Spain and E07 in France.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 10:18 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uppsala View Post
If someone wants to go from Hamburg to Stockholm without any ferry, they take A7/E45 from Hamburg to the Danish border, E45 from Danish border to Kolding, E20 from Kolding to Malmö over Great Belt bridge and Öresund bridge, E6/E20 from Malmö to Helsingborg and finally E4 from Helsingborg to Stockholm. It's more people than we can belive are going that way.
Yes, that is my favorite route. I usually travel without schedule, so ferries are an annoyance when you travel last-minute. It doesn't matter in time and cost which route you take. Although I feel the bridge tolls are too extravagant for non-regular users. Denmark is wealthy enough to finance such projects at least partially by tax money. And a bridge also doesn't need to be paid off within 20 years.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 03:20 PM   #127
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Yes, but it´s a question of which way you are coming from. Let´s see: If you are from Berlin,Prag,Wien and further east I would prefer Rostock-Gedser ferry and south motorway via Køge.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 04:43 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uppsala View Post
Some people use the Fehmarn ferry but some use the Great Belt bridge instead.

If someone wants to go from Hamburg to Stockholm without any ferry, they take A7/E45 from Hamburg to the Danish border, E45 from Danish border to Kolding, E20 from Kolding to Malmö over Great Belt bridge and Öresund bridge, E6/E20 from Malmö to Helsingborg and finally E4 from Helsingborg to Stockholm. It's more people than we can belive are going that way.
Yeah but actually less than you think. Traffic analysis carried out in conjunction with the Fehmarn Belt project to see how much the Fehmarn Belt link would relieve the E20 motorway across Funen and The Little Belt, showed that E20 will only be relieved with around 500-600 cars a day, when the Fehmarn Belt project is completed. http://www.vejdirektoratet.dk/publik...p318/index.htm
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Old September 13th, 2010, 04:57 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uppsala View Post
The road in Spain is not signed E07, it's signed E7. The road is signed E7 in Spain and E07 in France.
No, is signed E-7, with dash. And even I saw a couple of new signs with E-07 written in they.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 07:02 PM   #130
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How does the zero padding work in practice (i.e., on highway signs) for E01 - E09 (Western & Northern Europe) and E001 - E019 (Asia) in each country? Does each country decide for themselves whether to include the leading zeroes, regardless of the official E01-E09 and E001-E019 designations?

===============

Also, I found an interesting rant from Romania concerning the expansion of the E numbering eastward into Asia. This was presented officially to the UNECE Working Party on Road Transport in 2000.
http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2000/...1-2000-11e.pdf

The "AGR" mentioned is the multinational agreement document that lists all the E route city-to-city descriptions in its Annex I and the physical road standards for E routes in Annex II.
(http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2008/...S-SC1-384e.pdf)

Quote:
Romania considers that the E-road network has already been extended too much both (1) in
the number of routes on European territory, hence the length of the network itself has
increased considerably, and (2) in the number of routes outside the European continent
reaching into the Asian continent. Many of these routes do not meet the geometric and
structural requirements established by Annex II to the AGR. Notwithstanding, as long as the
characteristics of these itineraries (geometry, particularly horizontal plane, and bearing
capacity) are not the minimum required by Annex 2, the E-road network could only have a
guiding character. Otherwise, users will anyway choose the most convenient routes for them,
without taking into consideration whether the road is E or non-E.

The exaggerated extension of the E-road network will considerably distort the original idea on
which the creation of this network was based many years ago.

Romania proposes hereby that a map of all E-roads be prepared as soon as the present round
of amendments has ended, preferably by means of computer so that it can be periodically
updated, by using two colours: (1) one colour for routes which completely meet the
requirements established by the Annex II of the AGR and (2) another colour for those
E-roads which do not yet meet all the requirements of Annex II.

Romania proposes that a clear distinction be made between the E-road network and the
A (Asia) road network. According to traditions, Europe extends up to the Ural mountains,
hence, the E-road network should somehow reach that far.

A number of E-roads have already penetrated into Asian territory (therefore they overlap with
A roads) but, nevertheless, the E and A road networks should be distinct in order not to create
confusion for their users.

In order for the European countries to be able to better configure the E-road network, Romania
requests that Asian Highway road maps be distributed to all European countries, in other
words the maps equivalent to E-road maps, in order to see how the two networks are
interconnected.

Also, from the network operations point of view, taking into consideration that lately road
traffic on both continents is interacting more and more, increased cooperation is needed
between the Transport Divisions of the two Economic Commissions, i.e. UN/ECE and
UN/ESCAP. Not only should the configuration of the two networks be the object of this
cooperation but also ensuring uniform conditions for the flow of traffic (e.g. geometric and
structural capacity of the routes, specific conventions for traffic management, i.e. road signing
and marking, vehicle size dimensions and weights, taxation systems for road users etc.) is
equally important. Particular attention should be given to traffic management and operational
aspects since they dramatically influence the performance of the infrastructure.

Along the same lines, Romania wishes to reiterate that within the European Union area,
including the countries which have started negotiations for accession, Romania included,
intensive work is under way on harmonizing legislation including that regarding transport
facilitation in all respects. This process, which is part of the global accession process, is very
advanced as far as Romania is concerned. This is one more reason to keep the AGR with all
its ramifications, to the extent possible, within the European space.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 08:13 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGL View Post
No, is signed E-7, with dash. And even I saw a couple of new signs with E-07 written in they.
They have a dash on all E-road signs in Spain. E80 is signed E-80. In the official lists from UNECE the roads are E04 and E07. But most of the countries who have the roads E01-E09 just sign them E1-E9, with or without dash. So it is not right to call E4 and E7 different like one here did.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 08:36 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treichard View Post
How does the zero padding work in practice (i.e., on highway signs) for E01 - E09 (Western & Northern Europe) and E001 - E019 (Asia) in each country? Does each country decide for themselves whether to include the leading zeroes, regardless of the official E01-E09 and E001-E019 designations?

===============

Also, I found an interesting rant from Romania concerning the expansion of the E numbering eastward into Asia. This was presented officially to the UNECE Working Party on Road Transport in 2000.
http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2000/...1-2000-11e.pdf

The "AGR" mentioned is the multinational agreement document that lists all the E route city-to-city descriptions in its Annex I and the physical road standards for E routes in Annex II.
(http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2008/...S-SC1-384e.pdf)
E-roads in Asia exist only in former Sovjet countries and in Asian part of Turkey.
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Old October 17th, 2010, 07:23 PM   #133
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http://www.panoramio.com/photo/38483832
E65 road in Zielona Góra, view to the south.

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/34905299
E65 road in Zielona Góra, view to the north.

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/11794780
E65 road by Zawada.

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/11923019
E65/E30 by Świebodzin.

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/11922885
E65/E30 junction by Świebodzin.
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Old October 17th, 2010, 09:21 PM   #134
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I'm thinking of making a great overhaul of the E-routes. Sometimes they don't make sense, so how about start over and design our European route system?
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Old October 18th, 2010, 12:07 AM   #135
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OK, here's an idea. It's totally off the top of my head and certainly has a whole long list of problems, but...

Seeing that:

1) In most countries, the road network tends to take a more-or-less radial shape, and is numbered as such, and establishing an international network on top of that is inevitably going to feel unnatural;

2) The existing E-road network does not fulfill the task of helping people to navigate between important European cities. (Google Maps advises me to take the E30, E34, E37, E40, E42, and E19 from Berlin to Paris);

how about we:

* abolish E-numbers altogether;

* let every country keep its own number system;

* instead, establish a list of pan-European control cities;

* select the best routes between them;

* and install green E-signage that guides towards these cities (if they are not signposted yet). Signs would have only city names, and some unified symbol to signify the E-network (since in several countries signage is green anyway, and there must be something to distinguish the E-routes)

Signage towards a particular city may start quite early, 500 km+ (Zürich could signpost Rome; Marseille and Bordeaux could signpost Madrid, Barcelona and possibly Lisbon). It might be incorporated onto existing gantry and roadside signs, or if it doesn't fit, on separate signs.

Why no numbers? I suspect that any numbering scheme is likely to gravitate either towards a) the current grid system, that can be useful in some cases, but certainly not for everybody, or b) the system I described above, but with numbers added, and that would mean a lot of multiplexed numbers.

As an example: exiting Hamburg towards north we might have:



Of course, there is certainly room for improving the number system. I am looking forward to those proposals as well.
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Old October 18th, 2010, 01:24 AM   #136
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You already have these "control cities" on the boards. The E numbering isnt bad, it's just that national plannig preceeds european planning and the E numbering is therefore in delay behind the reality. More flexibility and communication between the national authority and E authority would solve the problem.
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Old October 18th, 2010, 03:19 AM   #137
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The biggest problem with E-numbering is the grid, it's too rigid and doesn't fit the road network or geography of Europe very well.

You could lax the grid and allow Paris - Berlin and Paris - Rome routes (for instance), I guess, but it still doesn't solve the problem that Europe and a grid don't go.
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Old October 18th, 2010, 11:54 PM   #138
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I don't think that the E-road network is particularly dependent on local planning, or that keeping it up to date is one of its foremost issues. Rather, the question is how the network is (or should be) fundamentally designed.

If you are pointing out that not all national authorities are signposting E-numbers and not all of them are doing it consistently -- that's definitely a valid point. However, the question, whether the numbers actually signify anything meaningful or not, remains.

Re: the grid - indeed it is too rigid; that's why I was imagining a more free-form solution.
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Old October 19th, 2010, 02:25 AM   #139
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I mean more the fact that the actual network is designed with priority for national purposes, not for European purposes. There is certainly concept of connections by the E roads, however problem persists. You can notice it when following the E number on map, when it cross the border, its direction starts to be confusing because of the new national system and is not anymore so straight pursuing its goal. Also many times on longer distances, several routes between two places are possible. Europe is just too densely populated and urbanized. Sure if you would chose ten locations and connect them with ten numbers it would be easy to see right away. You cannot compare it with US or Chineese system as these are designen on much grandeous scale. European TENT moreover doesnt lay out the practical routes, just gives the heading of connections that should be followed. National authorities will not create european superhigways across the continent, as these doesnt pay back in terms of fullfilling their country need. Thus the main motorway in given country might take most attention while it is not the main trainsit route from a european point of view and vice versa.

The problem I saw is that with new national construction should be the E routes also upgraded to utilize the fastest way in its general direction for the transit drivers. Anyway with modern era navigation system, or good up to date map, there should be no problem for any driver to drive throughout Europe with or without numbers of any kind.
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Old October 20th, 2010, 12:34 AM   #140
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To be honest, I think that the EU should be treated as a single country when it comes to roads. Just standardise everything and create names and standards for roads as you would if it was just one country. There would be a lot of work needed, most current signs would need to be changed, etc. but that is doable and in the long term, it would create a very clear and simple system that we would all be proud of.

E.g. say we follow the British system and denote motorways as M and national roads as A. In this case, e.g. road Amsterdam-Berlin-Warsaw would just be called M1 in sections that are of motorway standard and A1 in sections that are not yet of motorway standard. There wouldn't be another M1 or A1 in any other country. Personally, I don't care if the road next to my city is called M1, A1 or Z233 as long as the denotation system is clearly explained to me. I think its the case for most people.

E-numbers are the next best thing but they are more of a temporary solution than anything else.
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