The Importance of English in Bangladesh

[King Nothing]

Originally Posted by dopekhor

well the way you were heading i thought you eventually would!

Dont assume. Read, comprehend, reply.

[dopekhor]

Originally Posted by King Nothing

Dont assume. Read, comprehend, reply.

if you observe a few conversations i had on this subject in the forum this is what the opponents said that we dont need to learn english to prosper those who want to trade with us should learn bangla.

[King Nothing]

Originally Posted by dopekhor

if you observe a few conversations i had on this subject in the forum this is what the opponents said that we dont need to learn english to prosper those who want to trade with us should learn bangla.

They can go suck an egg for all I care. But when adressing me understand what view-point I am taking then reply.

[dopekhor]

Originally Posted by King Nothing

They can go suck an egg for all I care. But when adressing me understand what view-point I am taking then reply.

my bad,

so are you pro or anti english?

[King Nothing]

Uhmm pro? Read my posts a few posts up.

[nayeem007]

Originally Posted by King Nothing

Judicial sytem? How would you expect the goru wala to present his case in English? The krishok would come to the police station and say "Hello Mr.Officer I want to lodge a case"? Most businesses I know use english as means of communication. But if you are implying that colleagues talk amongst themselves in English all the time. Its a bit far-fetched. So is if you expect telecommunication customer reps to talk to every customer in english. The cell-phone customer centers are pretty professional these days anyway.

As for tourism our country is pretty english friendly actually. My friend went to China and Vietnam. Boy did he have a hard time. Same case with my uncle who went to Iran.

Bangladesh's legal system just like India/Pakistan's is based on "British common law", also even if the proceedings are conducted in English, the defendent or the plaintiff can speak in Bengali. Also, maybe there can be a middle ground, hold the lower court activities in Bangla and use English for High court and Suprement court decisions?

Our examples should be India,Pakistan,Nigeria etc which were British colonies and english is widely understood not Iran or China.

Just to compare with the process in India:

India''s legal system is based on English Common Law, Indian legal training is conducted solely in English, Appellate and Supreme Court proceedings take place exclusively in English, and legal opinions are written exclusively in English. Virtually all Indian lawyers are conversant with the UK legal system.
http://www.shvoong.com/humanities/16...s-outsourcing/

Infact legal works from around the world are being outsourced to India as a result of this.

I am not saying colleagues should be conversing with each other in english, but gradually the formal interaction with business partners can be done in english.

Also, everything needs to be implemented in a step by step way. We cannot just stop use of Bangla today, it will create caos and huge uproar. Gradually by improving the standard of english we can move towards that direction.

[nayeem007]

Also, just because I am advocating English doesn't mean Bangla should be ignored. As our mother tongue we should put due emphasis on it as well. Even Olevel, Alevel students should have the ability to read and write bangla properly. There is nothing to be proud of not knowing one's own language.

[King Nothing]

Originally Posted by nayeem007

I am not saying colleagues should be conversing with each other in english, but gradually the formal interaction with business partners can be done in english.

Dont we do that anyway? Most ppl I know talk in English with their foreign business partners.

Also I have heard from certain sources that because of the lack of entertainment in our country (Clubs, alcohol, bars) a lot of investors dont want to come here. So government is building something in the EPZ for the foreign investors only that will have booze, casinos and other types of noshtami.

[nayeem007]

Originally Posted by King Nothing

Dont we do that anyway? Most ppl I know talk in English with their foreign business partners.

Not just foreign business partners,I think we should spread it in the corporate meetings within local companies aswell.Also spoken english is so weak among most managers that they struggle while presenting themselves to foreign clients....

[fallstuf]

Been sitting on the sideline for a while, but no more !

English is not required for economical progress but is nice to know ( Japan, S. Korea, Taiwan, China, Brazil).
During the time of British Raj knowing English allowed you to converse with "Shahebs" and in turn brought a certain social stature. The Brits are gone , but not the eliteness.
Being multi-lingual certainly has advantages, and quite an achievement when you master it, but not required as I stated before. To this day Japan still hires college graduates from the English speaking world to teach English in Japan !!! I don't think anybody doubts their monumental accomplishments.


In the early middle ages the Europeans were far behind the Arabs ( Yes, it is true) The Europeans didn't learn Arabic, but a few did and translated the Arabic knowledge into Latin. Latin was the written language in Europe until the 16th century. To read and write in those days you had to study Latin. Latin was the Language of the dominant Catholic Church. Its no wonder that almost all the early Renaissance men were from the Church or Nobles. But Latin started to lose its prominence to native languages as because local language disseminated the knowledge faster after translation. The rest is history.

It is much easier to translate a book and make it available for the population than to teach the population a language.Consider the cost involved of teaching a large population vs the good translation of books. Anybody care to do the math on that one ! I remember the days of DOS. How many people know DOS even in these days? Not many. However, windows on the other hand is very intuitive, easy to learn, and made Bill Gates a very wealthy man ! All Bill Gates did is add local language to Windows library and sold it all over the world
The case of India is very unique. It has many established written and spoken languages. English being a non-native language is very handy to bridge the language gap between different provinces. It is a necessity to know English in India when you work for the Federal Govt. or any Orgt. where people speak different languages. This gave India a certain advantage in Call Center business, however their principle export is off-shored S/W development and export of indigenous S/W . Being involved in IT myself I observed their development from a close proximity.
Bangladesh has only written Bangla. The spoken Bangla only differs in dialects in different regions. ( Sylhet, Dhakiya, Noakhali, Chittagong, Kushtia...). Being homogeneous has its advantages of not dealing with language barriers.

Our achievements over the last decade is not a small matter. In 1991 the per ca-pita income was just about $100 , today its about $700 in real and $1500 in PPP. Once again, not bad at all. IMHO we need good governance for a good ten years, and after that, the chips will start to fall in the right places.

You need English in international trade or any instance when you are dealing with foreign nationals. Beyond that its a personal endeavor.
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Anyone thinks differently ? Speak out now or forever hold your peace !!

[King Nothing]

Great post fallstuff bhai.

I realized that a few months back I posted that most ppl talk in English with their business partners. But I went to seminar recently about market potential of Bangladeshi products in Japanese market and what the discussants said was they would need to learn Japanese in order to business with Japanese buyers. I found that pretty interesting

[TIslam]

Originally Posted by King Nothing

Great post fallstuff bhai.

I realized that a few months back I posted that most ppl talk in English with their business partners. But I went to seminar recently about market potential of Bangladeshi products in Japanese market and what the discussants said was they would need to learn Japanese in order to business with Japanese buyers. I found that pretty interesting

I wouldn't expect otherwise. As a frequent traveler passing through various Japanese airports, it doesn't appear to me that most Japanese are keen to learn and/or converse in English.

[nayeem007]

It's ironic that we are all posting in english and making full advantage of this global language in our own career, yet we are saying it's not important.

A language alone can never develop a nation and bring it out of poverty, for that we need good national planning that encourages education, investment, rule of law that will eventually lead to industralization.

Learning english does not need to come at the cost of Bangla, the population can be equally proficient in both given the right environment.

[tanzirian]

Originally Posted by nayeem007

It's ironic that we are all posting in english and making full advantage of this global language in our own career, yet we are saying it's not important.

A language alone can never develop a nation and bring it out of poverty, for that we need good national planning that encourages education, investment, rule of law that will eventually lead to industralization.

Learning english does not need to come at the cost of Bangla, the population can be equally proficient in both given the right environment.

Agree to this. We should learn as many languages as possible...this will only be beneficial for Bangladesh as well as for ourselves. If Japanese don't learn English that is to their detriment...but they have quite enough redeeming qualities, and are sufficiently developed or influential, that they can accomodate such attitude. Bangladesh is in no position to do so. I think Bangladeshis for the 21st century should learn at least English or Chinese to a reasonable degree of competence. There is no reason why we cannot do this while learning and preserving Bangla at the same time.

[fallstuf]

Let me make myself clear. I do not harbor hostilities towards English language !! English is the unofficial official language of the Global Trade, diplomats, and well known educational institutions. The Global trade will probably come to a halt if English is not used. This is an undisputed fact, and we all agree to to that. It would be an unwise statement to make that a nation can engage in global interactions without English. The wide reach of British Empire firmly established English as the dominant language over the last few hundred years.

My point is English is [U][not required/U] for economical progress. My argument is not mutually exclusive. It is not one or the other.. My point relates to the wider Bangladeshi population and not to urbanized educated few.

Lets consider the Garments Industry. The booming Garments Industry example I am using is not an anomaly or a fluke. Who knows English in that industry ? Not the young girls that actually do the work. Matter of fact only upper mgmt and the pple that negotiate with the foreign buyers are proficient in English or at least know functional English. For these ppl its a cardinal sin not to be proficient in English. If we need more people speaking English the market will decide on a per diem basis and/or by Govt. endeavor.

If someone wants to setup an Auto plant in Bangladesh for local market or Export, same Garments Industry model can be applied here. This is the model that is used all over the world. When I deal with off-shore team in India, I actually deal with one guy. He/she is well versed in English, the ones that work under him/her do not speak good English, however it is not an impeding factor in our business relationship.

As for local Bangladesh market, I don't get how not knowing English can be a factor at all. Enlighten me on that one !

The preferred language of the elite in Bangladesh is English or more like Benglish. This was widely practiced in the Cadet Colleges, I don't know how it is these days. Its a carryover from the British Raj. This phenomena is also pervasive in India and Pakistan . Somehow speaking English is associated with ones ability to do certain things. For the life of me, I do not understand that !!!!

I also believe in reality and deal with it as is, and not what it ought to be. It is important in Bangladesh for an individual to know English to get good jobs or climb up the ladder in their career. The lack of this dogmatic criteria can stigmatize anyone with the proverbial, "Oh he/she doesn't speak good or any English at all." We all can relate to it or know. Just look at the name of the thread itself," The Importance of English in Bangladesh." That alone speaks volume.

The nations that I used in my earlier post barely speak any English. They do ID the key area where they need English or any other foreign language speaking personal. In the late 40's the sub-continent, China, HongKong, Korea, Singapore, and Taiwan were all in the same boat. Well not any longer. Some nations have reached the developed nation status, some are now well on their way, the subcontinent is well behind than any other nation. We, in the sub-continent speak more English than any other non-English speaking country in the world, yet we are called the least developed in the world ( emerging nations to be politically correct ), well gentlemen, care to explain that ?

I am going drag in Plato in the end. In Bangladesh it is well known and believed that good grasp of English is a key factor in career or that our growth can be further accelerated by wider spread of English. Which is just as real as the people watching the shadows in Plato's "allegory of Cave."



P.S It would be a daunting task to compose the above in Bangla in this forum . I do not have a Bangla keyboard, nor do I know how to use one, and anybody reading Bangla would need Bangla fonts in the Windows/Mac Language folder.

[nayeem007]

Crazy English: How China's language teachers became big celebrities

This year it will be announced that China now has more English speakers than any other country in the world. And such is the demand for their services that top teachers have become big stars.

"Where are you from? Do you speak English?" It's a familiar phrase near the Forbidden City in Beijing, or along the capital's Nanjing Road, as Chinese people try a standard opening gambit to spark up a conversation with a foreigner. Many visitors baulk at being approached so baldly, and are worried that it could be a scam. Very occasionally it is a con – and tourists should be wary when some nice young people offer to bring them to a tea house – but mostly the youngsters are desperate for access to real live Anglophones who can help them improve their conversational English.


Chinese people are becoming more and more obsessed with speaking English, and efforts to improve their proficiency mean that at some stage this year, the world's most populous nation will become the world's largest English-speaking country. Two billion people are learning English worldwide, and a huge proportion of them are in China.

And sometimes it seems like most of these eager students are learning from Li Yang, who is the true folk hero of the English-language-training business. Li founded the "Crazy English" movement, which now involves him visiting a dozen cities a month and lecturing in English to crowds of up to 30,000 people. His books sell in the millions.

The principle is that "you can't learn to swim in a classroom" – so "Crazy English" teaches language learning as a form of mass activity. At a recent tutorial in Beijing, students passed large banners saying, "I can realize all my dreams" before entering the classroom to sample Li's inimitable mixture of English-language teaching and motivational speaking. There is even a touch of the evangelist about him – though he is preaching to the converted – and the enthusiasm of the response is amazing, with plenty of arm-waving, fist-raising and punching the air.

The desire to learn the world's language of commerce is reflected in the way that English is everywhere these days. It's deeply fashionable but also part of a broader goal to encourage greater use of English to help boost China internationally. So the people turn to Li, who started doing this 20 years ago and whose Guangzhou-based business is now vast. "I talk to 10 million people a year, face to face," he says proudly. "Back in 1988, China was in the process of opening up to the outside world but the whole Chinese educational system was based on tests. There were so many people learning English to pass the tests but they couldn't communicate."

There are currently 200 million Chinese at secondary school who are bored with tests, and Li is still trying to change the way people learn to speak English. "This is a new method for Asian people, who are shy and introverted," he explains. "My method can give people confidence very quickly. I try to simplify English for common people. I became an idol and a celebrity for Chinese young people because of this content. People get excited and I also tell them how to face difficulties and obstacles; I combine a lot of things into teaching."

Most of his students are aged between 10 and 40, and they include professionals and students, lawyers and bus drivers. "The older generation is interested, but English is not that useful for them. They have more important things to learn. But basically everyone in China is interested in learning some English," says Li. "It is growing with the openness of China – English is now a required subject. Good English will help you get a better job. There are many different situations that determine Chinese people's craziness for learning English. We waste a lot of time analysing and memorising – it's time- consuming and stupid. My mission is to direct people into learning English."

Most people in China still don't have the opportunity to travel abroad, so they are eager for ways to practise spoken English and correct their mistakes. Li's reading materials contain inspirational – and patriotic – phrases, such as "Help 300 million Chinese people speak English fluently" and "Make the voice of China be widely heard throughout the world". "This is still a poor country, a developing country, and we lag behind in technology," explains this father of four daughters. "I promote hard work and the work ethic. I am described as a patriotic teacher – and I am patriotic because I want to get young people into school and away from video games. I want to kill all video games."

But English proficiency has improved markedly in recent years – and there are a lot more Chinese people learning and speaking English than there are English native-speakers learning Chinese. We should perhaps remember that – despite China's rapid rise to economic dominance – Britain is a long way off the time when an average local copper could spark up a conversation with a visiting Chinese journalist in Mandarin Chinese. Not until our own answer to Li Yang arrives, exhorting the nation to learn Chinese.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-1777545.html

[nayeem007]

This year it will be announced that China now has more English speakers than any other country in the world. And such is the demand for their services that top teachers have become big stars.

Interesting!

Also point to note Singapore and Hongkong are basically english speaking nations with well over 90% of the population well versed in the language.

[nayeem007]

Teaching English in Japan is becoming a huge industry. In Japanese high schools and universities, a second language is a prerequisite- and English is the single most taught language in the country. As Japanese businesses interact more and more with the rest of the corporate world, the skill of speaking English is becoming vitally important to the Japanese people.

http://www.eslemployment.com/esl-art...h-in-japan.htm

[fallstuf]

"Round and round" from the 80's is the song that comes to my mind. Don't remember the band name. They were pretty flamboyant. Anyway, we are going to have a another go at it .

Quote:
"Teaching English in Japan is becoming a huge industry. In Japanese high schools and universities, a second language is a prerequisite- and English is the single most taught language in the country. As Japanese businesses interact more and more with the rest of the corporate world, the skill of speaking English is becoming vitally important to the Japanese people. "

I had a friend who taught English in Japan in the early 90's. Japanese have been doing it for a while for different purposes since 1850's. The "Samurai" movie with Tom Cruise actually shows a bit of that. In the U.S, students are required to study a second language from the middle school.
But remember Japan just elected a party that wants to shift the focus to Asia. I wouldn't be surprised if Mandarin becomes the most taught language in Japan.


Quote
"http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-1777545.html"
Instead of quoting the entire article, I am quoting the URL, I think the APA people wouldn't mind that much. I will just quote a few lines off the aeticle.


Quote
"This year it will be announced that China now has more English speakers than any other country in the world. And such is the demand for their services that top teachers have become big stars."

There is a difference between functional English speaking and proficient English speaking. The quote doesn't clarify that. India doesn't have a billion people speaking English proficiently, even with English as an official language.


Quote
"Help 300 million Chinese people speak English fluently"

The gentleman making the statement is Li Yang. This man has thousands of seats to fill. I doubt its anything more than a marketing slogan.

Quote
"Where I teach English in China, motivation to learn English is low. The attitude is more sneering than interested and diligent students are socially ridiculed for 'showing off'.
"

This quote is taken from the same url, but from comment section, the third comment to be exact. Even though it is one man's opinion, it offers a reason to explore the issue further. In China English is mandatory as the second language from the primary school level.



Quote:
"Also point to note Singapore and Hongkong are basically English speaking nations with well over 90% of the population well versed in the language."
They are both ex-British colonies. There is nothing unusual about that. Hong Kong was returned to China in 1997 by the Brits.


I didn't see anything in the Independent article that refutes my proposition. Progress has very little to do with a second language and more to do with good governance such as transparency, accountability, and a good sense of fiducial responsibility. In the 90's the Chinese were ruthless and used draconian measures dealing with corruption. They shot hundreds if not thousands of corrupt officials and than billed the families for the cost of the bullet.

We will always need people that speaks excellent English, it is undisputed, and will remain so.

Consider the following,

1. When you learn better English it helps you to communicate better if you are a diplomat, working for a multi-national, or dealing with foreign nationals for any reason.

2.When you learn better English it may improve your social stature, or the chance of getting a good job, or career advancement.

3. Entrepreneurship skills doesn't increase when you learn better English.

4. Management skills doesn't increase when you learn better English.

5. Mathematical, engineering, banking, software programming, accounting skills doesn't increase when you learn better English.

6. Blue collar skills doesn't increase when you learn better English.

7. Heck, even Richshaw pulling skills doesn't increase when you learn better English !

8. 3-7 above, is where we have all the economical activities.

If we are not living in a Banana Republic, the opposites of the above can not be true. Lets us take another look at our good old Bangladesh. The billions of dollar in exports in the garments industry and the billions of dollars in remittance from the middle east has very little to do with speaking better English and everything to do with good business skills, undeniable contribution of the under privileged women, and back-breaking work of NRB in middle east.


P.S "The path to Truth is a difficult one and often confused with illusions". May the force be with you.

[nayeem007]

I think you have slightly misunderstood the position taken by myself, Tanzarian and others in this thread. No one is saying that a second language be it English or Mandarin is the panacea to all ills in Bangladeshi society. Economic emancipation needs a combination of dozen factors including:

1) High level of literacy(over 90%) + strong secondary and tertiary education system

2) Infrastructure (power,roads, bridges, ports).

3) Good governance (political stability, accountability and open process)

4) Rule of law ( land, labor and information rights need to be rigorously protected to encourage business and investment)

5) Large scale Industralization

There are many other fundamental things like above that needs to be emphasized.

English which is becoming a global language along with Information Technology can act as catalyst in the process of economic development. Just like Hongkong, Singapore and India Bangladesh was also a British colony so we already have some basic knowledge in this aspect, infact our legal system is already based on "British common law", all primary and high school have "English as a second language". So if we enhance the standard, we can use this for better marketability in knowledge based industry like IT or service sector like Tourism. There is no negative impact in learning a global language while keeping Bengali intact.

Infact pre independence, the standard of english(taught as a second language) in Bengali medium school was quite high. All the elderly in my family have great hold of the language even though none of them went to "English Medium" school. Only in the last few decades the standard has dropped drastically, only few schools like Government laboratory, Saint Gregory, Saint Joseph high school have been able to keep the english proficiency of the students intact.

You can compare this to improving Information technology infrastructure. Access to Internet, digitization of land records,electronic bill pay, auction and share exchange can only help in the process of development. It cannot be the single factor that determines the destiny of a country. You won't find any single country, that has become developed just through IT, but does that mean we should just ignore it?

English just like Internet is a window to the rest of the world. Infact it can save a huge amount of pain of translating millions of research papers, journals, books from topics as diverse as medicine, physics, chemistry to various branches of engineering. Bangla Academy cannot even translate all the classic literature of english language on time and it would be herculian task for our government institutions to start translating research of NASA, IBM to CERN in Bengali.

English along with other factors like IT, Infrastructure, political stability should all be emphasized. The combination of all these positive moves will pay dividend sooner than later.