daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old May 6th, 2012, 06:48 AM   #301
sweet-d
Registered User
 
sweet-d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chengdu
Posts: 1,612
Likes (Received): 265

I guess Texas can't do anything right when it comes to public transportation.
sweet-d no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old May 6th, 2012, 07:24 AM   #302
FM 2258
Registered User
 
FM 2258's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Austin
Posts: 5,438
Likes (Received): 612

Quote:
Originally Posted by State of the Union View Post
I like DART's enthusiasm for expansion, but they really should cut down on extending branches when they should be building another downtown connector. I don't care if they if have the longest light rail system. 15-20 minute headways at 5 o clock in the afternoon is pathetic.
More frequency will be great especially in the hot Texas summers. When we took the train a few weeks ago it wasn't fun waiting so long for the train in the miserable heat.

I noticed some stations and even downtown don't have message boards showing how long the next train will arrive. Downtown Dallas doesn't seem busy or walkable for a city of it's size. There seems to be nothing downtown and not many people walking around.
FM 2258 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 6th, 2012, 07:29 PM   #303
State of the Union
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 154
Likes (Received): 12

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweet-d View Post
I guess Texas can't do anything right when it comes to public transportation.
They have the right intentions, but they seem to always have a glaring flaw that ruins the entire thing.

In Houston's case, it's excessive street running. In Dallas' case, it's the lack of capacity and frequencies with a single double-track downtown connector. Every Texan on this board seems to agree.

Nouvellecosse -You can have cleanest stations, best customer service, and only have angels riding it - but the fact is, if you miss the train, and have to wait 20 minutes when it would take that same amount of time to get to your destination by car just to wait for the next train, who is going to ride it?

Also, if there's an ONE accident on the downtown connector, the ENTIRE system is knocked out. LA is learning this the hard way with the new Expo Line - One thing happens on the shared track portion and now TWO lines are screwed. The Expo Line also showcases why at-grade light rail track sharing should avoided unless you add capacity like Portland.

It's going to get even worse when the new Orange Line Branch comes online, because now the Orange Line won't be a "select peak trip service" but a full blown line. I wonder if DART ever thought about this before-hand.
__________________
"BRT is a crock of shit, because it can mean any sort of improvement beyond a bus line in mixed traffic. BRT is joke, and until it's defined properly, should not even be considered." -JustinB

Last edited by State of the Union; May 6th, 2012 at 07:47 PM.
State of the Union no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 7th, 2012, 04:01 AM   #304
rantanamo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 3,507
Likes (Received): 353

Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
More frequency will be great especially in the hot Texas summers. When we took the train a few weeks ago it wasn't fun waiting so long for the train in the miserable heat.

I noticed some stations and even downtown don't have message boards showing how long the next train will arrive. Downtown Dallas doesn't seem busy or walkable for a city of it's size. There seems to be nothing downtown and not many people walking around.
unlike Austin, most of the "cool" stuff people do is in other neighborhoods. Most pedestrians are usually around the West End or doing business. Really don't know if anything can be done to make downtown Dallas lively again but a critical mass.

I still think a lot of the criticisms are time sensitive. There is another downtown line planned. There are more commuter lines planned. The system is 16 years old and pretty much trying to get to the various employment nodes in the Dallas half of the metro. The true usefulness of the system won't come for another 15 years. Growing pains.
rantanamo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 7th, 2012, 06:11 AM   #305
ajw373
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,249
Likes (Received): 48

..
ajw373 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 9th, 2012, 09:18 PM   #306
trainrover
:-x
 
trainrover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,787
Likes (Received): 738

Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
Downtown Dallas doesn't seem busy or walkable for a city of it's size. There seems to be nothing downtown and not many people walking around.
Reminds me of the daytime videos I watched of Houston's ghost downtown.



Quote:
Originally Posted by State of the Union View Post
if you miss the train, and have to wait 20 minutes when it would take that same amount of time to get to your destination by car just to wait for the next train, who is going to ride it?
Is traffic seldom problematic around Dallas?
__________________
.
hee hee
.
trainrover no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 12th, 2012, 08:09 PM   #307
dwdwone
Subway Dave
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 569
Likes (Received): 39

Quote:
Originally Posted by State of the Union View Post
They have the right intentions, but they seem to always have a glaring flaw that ruins the entire thing.

In Houston's case, it's excessive street running. In Dallas' case, it's the lack of capacity and frequencies with a single double-track downtown connector. Every Texan on this board seems to agree.

Nouvellecosse -You can have cleanest stations, best customer service, and only have angels riding it - but the fact is, if you miss the train, and have to wait 20 minutes when it would take that same amount of time to get to your destination by car just to wait for the next train, who is going to ride it?

Also, if there's an ONE accident on the downtown connector, the ENTIRE system is knocked out. LA is learning this the hard way with the new Expo Line - One thing happens on the shared track portion and now TWO lines are screwed. The Expo Line also showcases why at-grade light rail track sharing should avoided unless you add capacity like Portland.

It's going to get even worse when the new Orange Line Branch comes online, because now the Orange Line won't be a "select peak trip service" but a full blown line. I wonder if DART ever thought about this before-hand.
They knew it and had plans for D2 - a downtown Dallas subway that would relieve much of the traffic and provide a workaround in the event of trouble. However, they ran out of money so they had to cancel D2. Well, technically it's not cancelled, it's just been put off until forever.

DART knows full well the trouble they can get into with the Orange Line comming into the corridor. I believe they are just hoping that things change and they can get the money to build D2.
dwdwone no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 12th, 2012, 08:11 PM   #308
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,525
Likes (Received): 21227

What about a high-capacity but lower cost solution, such as a monorail or elevated urban railway?
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 26th, 2012, 08:02 AM   #309
FDW
Registered User
 
FDW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 532
Likes (Received): 34

Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
More frequency will be great especially in the hot Texas summers. When we took the train a few weeks ago it wasn't fun waiting so long for the train in the miserable heat.

I noticed some stations and even downtown don't have message boards showing how long the next train will arrive. Downtown Dallas doesn't seem busy or walkable for a city of it's size. There seems to be nothing downtown and not many people walking around.
I think that reason why reduced train frequencies during the peak (from to 10 to 15 minutes on each line) was to accommodate the Orange Line once it started service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
What about a high-capacity but lower cost solution, such as a monorail or elevated urban railway?
Monorail is a tourist trap in the American mind, so no. Elevated has nearly costs in the US as Subway, and there are too many who are going to bitch about it, so no. I should also point out that your suggestion of adding an incompatible mode to a existing cities transit system offends my notions of economy.
FDW no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 27th, 2012, 02:49 AM   #310
desertpunk
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
 
desertpunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: ELP ~ ABQ
Posts: 55,643
Likes (Received): 53462

Green Line construction



Work now on the Northwest leg.

image hosted on flickr

Green Line Construction by noahjeppson, on Flickr


image hosted on flickr

Green Line Construction by noahjeppson, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Green Line Construction by noahjeppson, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Green Line Construction by noahjeppson, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Green Line Construction by noahjeppson, on Flickr
__________________
We are floating in space...
desertpunk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 27th, 2012, 09:40 PM   #311
trainrover
:-x
 
trainrover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,787
Likes (Received): 738

The route looks it's gonna be express enough.
__________________
.
hee hee
.
trainrover no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 27th, 2012, 10:36 PM   #312
Woonsocket54
PC LOAD LETTER
 
Woonsocket54's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: East Millinocket, Maine
Posts: 5,634
Likes (Received): 5736

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertpunk View Post
Work now on the Northwest leg.
These photos are from the George W Bush administration.
Woonsocket54 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 28th, 2012, 07:37 PM   #313
dfwcre8tive
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Seattle
Posts: 299
Likes (Received): 26

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertpunk View Post
Green Line construction

Work now on the Northwest leg.

Those photos are old; the Green Line opened last year.

The line now under construction is the Orange Line:

http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/orangeline.asp
dfwcre8tive no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 14th, 2012, 07:43 AM   #314
Woonsocket54
PC LOAD LETTER
 
Woonsocket54's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: East Millinocket, Maine
Posts: 5,634
Likes (Received): 5736

WFAA
http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Train...158516545.html

Quote:
Train to nowhere? New Irving DART station is a lonely place
by JONATHAN BETZ
WFAA

Posted on June 11, 2012 at 10:00 PM
Updated Monday, Jun 11 at 10:14 PM

IRVING — It could be called the "train to nowhere," or perhaps the "loneliest DART station in North Texas."

The new Irving Convention Center light rail station stands largely isolated — surrounded by empty fields.

“Had the economy not done what it did, we’d see more on the ground right now,” said Maura Gast, executive director of Irving’s Convention and Visitors Bureau.

As workers prepare for the opening of the first segment of DART's Orange Line extension, planned development surrounding one of its stations has yet to materialize. The glistening concrete platform simply empties into muddy fields.

By now, city leaders hoped the rail station — near Irving’s new convention center — would be surrounded by a dense urban development that included a plaza, hotel, and restaurants.

The $250 million Las Colinas Entertainment Center, to be built by the city and a private developer, was envisioned to connect the rail station to the convention center.

The entertainment development has been saddled with controversy and funding troubles. Investigations have unearthed accusations of mismanaged funds. The troubled project now faces an August deadline to find financing.

Irving Mayor Beth Van Duyne, a staunch opponent of the project, promised that even if the entertainment complex falls through, the land around that rail station won’t go to waste.

“We will have development; I’m not concerned,” she told News 8. “I’m hopefully optimistic we’ll complete a legitimate entertainment project.”

DART trains will start servicing the convention center station on July 30. There may be little surrounding the station, yet DART believes commuters will still use it. The agency expects the rail station to be fed by a bus terminal that sits a few hundred yards away... and across a busy highway.

“The city’s got plans for around our station,” said DART spokesperson Mark Ball. “So we put our building where we were asked to put it.”

Irving’s convention center is also expected to be a draw, even though it sits about one-third of a mile away.

“Right now, it’s a walk,” Gast conceded, saying a sidewalk through the field must still be built to get conventioneers to the station.

DART is also building its own pathways connecting the station to the bus terminal and the convention center.

Gast predicted that the station — with or without the surrounding development — will still be a hit with conventioneers, especially once the Orange Line reaches Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport.

City leaders insist the area is still a big draw for rail riders, even without the development.

“If I could wave the magic wand and have it all done in full, I’d love that to happen,” Gast said. “We’re not there yet. It’s coming.”

E-mail [email protected]
Woonsocket54 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 17th, 2012, 05:32 AM   #315
sweet-d
Registered User
 
sweet-d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chengdu
Posts: 1,612
Likes (Received): 265

Well that's ammo for anti public transport groups.
sweet-d no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 17th, 2012, 05:49 AM   #316
FM 2258
Registered User
 
FM 2258's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Austin
Posts: 5,438
Likes (Received): 612

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfwcre8tive View Post
Those photos are old; the Green Line opened last year.

The line now under construction is the Orange Line:

http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/orangeline.asp
I was about to say I thought the green line was open and running.

FM 2258 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 20th, 2012, 02:40 AM   #317
dfwcre8tive
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Seattle
Posts: 299
Likes (Received): 26

The Irving Convention Center Station is in the middle of a field because Irving's project to develop that area has been on hold with years of controversy. Being located in the Las Colinas Urban Center, the station will eventually be surrounded by some type of dense development. The next station down the line has already seen a lot of new projects filling formerly empty fields. Older development of the Urban Center is on the West side of the lake, and the arrival of DART has encouraged construction of new roads and infrastructure in areas that had been economically stagnant for years. The APT people mover will connect existing development to the new DART station.

Meanwhile, the first new segment of the Orange Line opens July 30th: http://dart.org/about/riderinsider/s...#supersaturday
dfwcre8tive no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2012, 10:55 AM   #318
diablo234
Oh No He Didn't
 
diablo234's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,297

The DART Orange Line will officially start service to Irving/Las Colinas on July 30.

diablo234 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2012, 12:48 PM   #319
Nouvellecosse
~ Mysterious Entity ~
 
Nouvellecosse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Halifax, N.S.
Posts: 4,446
Likes (Received): 313

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajw373 View Post
It becomes a bottle neck the moment you have an issue with one line or if you want to increase frequencies which is what myself and the other poster are saying.
But there are a lot of cities that have all or most lines running through a single corridor in the center of the city. I'm not sure why it would be a bigger issue with DART than with other systems like BART.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajw373 View Post
Your miss reading it. The times shown are off peak. If you look at they key you will see they say services are more frequent during peak hours, and of course all the discussion above was about peak period frequencies. And as I said there is no way what so ever that Sydney's city rail network can be compared to Dart. For one Dart is a light rail network, not heavy like sydney. The city rail network extends for about 300km North, 200km West, 200km South and 200km South West and has over 300 stations. The bulk of the trains are 8 car double deckers, with a handful of smaller trains operating he diesel routes or suburban Newcastle or Wollongong services. Dart on the other hand has how many line, stations and covers what area? As I said no comparison what so ever.
All of this dwelling on City Rail is irrelevant since it has no berring on the topic. As I already said, if you don't feel it provides a good example, just look to many of the other systems as there are several that can be used for comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajw373 View Post
You seem to keep switching between peak and offpeak times to make your argument.
Obviously I have to reccognise and discuss both, since few systems have a single frequency for both peak and off peak times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajw373 View Post
For a service like Dart I would say 10 minute peak should be the minimum and 20 minutes off peak.
You seem to have a double standard regarding the frequency at different times of day. There are only two main reasons why one would wish to have high-frequency service. The first would be for rider convenience, and the second would be for system capacity. Rider convenience concerns should prevent frequency from dropping below a certain point at any time of day. If you say it's acceptable for frequency to be every 20 minutes off peak in terms of convenience, then it is acceptable on peak in terms of convenience as well. Obviously is isn't fair to say riders should receive levels of convenience off peak that wouldn't be acceptable on peak. Off-peak riders are not second class citizens.

If frequency is to exceed this minimum on-peak, it is only due to capacity concerns. If 10 minute frequencies are needed for capacity during peak, then obviously that's what they should be. But if you only feel frequency should be 10 min on peak since 20 min is too inconvenient, then 20 min should be considered too inconvenient off peak also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajw373 View Post
As for your argument that to attract rider-ship reliability, cleanliness etc should be priorirites, now whilst yes they are important so too is frequencies, especially in a city like Dallas that has a good network of freeways. If you want to get people out of their car you need to offer a frequeny service. It is no good to expect someone to drive to a park and ride and then wait up to 15 minutes in peak or 30 minutes off peak then travel when they could probably drive in a short time period.
But of course, that obviously isn't true, is it? I mean, there are many commuter rail systems, even in NA that have higher ridership than DART light rail even with lower frequencies. Take Boston's T Commuter rail for instance. It has almost double the ridership of the DART light rail despite having peak frequency of no more than 20 min to 1/2 hour on most lines and 1/2 hour to 1 hour off peak. This despite being in a metro area about the same size as Dallas that just spent over $14 billion improving downtown freeway service and also having a subway/light rail system with several times the ridership of its commuter rail on top of that.

I'm not going to say that frequency doesn't play a role in ridership as it certainly does. But once it's above the 15-20 minute threshold, there are other factors that obviously play just as large, if not a larger, role.
Nouvellecosse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 9th, 2012, 06:13 AM   #320
FM 2258
Registered User
 
FM 2258's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Austin
Posts: 5,438
Likes (Received): 612

Quote:
Originally Posted by diablo234 View Post
The DART Orange Line will officially start service to Irving/Las Colinas on July 30.


Nice. I hope the areas around the station will fill in with some density in the future.
FM 2258 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
dallas, dart, light rail transit, texas

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium