daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 6th, 2008, 09:47 PM   #41
particlez
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 532
Likes (Received): 106

^you know, leo_sh did have a point. high rates of automobile penetration do invariably impact PT efficiency in a negative way. the automobile's nefarious impact doesn't discriminate, developed cologne and developing shanghai are all at its mercy.

but apparently some of you (bahnsteig or whatever the hell your name is) cannot get past your own reflexive sensitivity

no one's saying cologne's system is inferior. but automobile ownership is inefficient for economic and ecological reasons, and has a negative impact on urbanity. you pay for the car, you pay for roads, then there are the carparks, etc., all at the expense of something else. i'm stating the obvious. but the obvious has been ignored in this thread.

Last edited by particlez; December 6th, 2008 at 09:53 PM.
particlez no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 9th, 2008, 09:30 AM   #42
AAPMBerlin
Registered User
 
AAPMBerlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Grândola, Berlin
Posts: 389
Likes (Received): 94

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
I was hoping u would post some nice pictures, maybe old maps and stuff instead of trolling and talking crap.
That's a shame.

btw. Could u remember me how long has been under construction the latest underground extention south from 'Dom' ? I's only 3.9km long tunel. They started in 2004 and it will last for next 3 years or so - in that time (i mean 3 years) the Spaniards built 41km of Metro Sur!

Has anyone pics? Köln looks like really pretty nice Stadtbahn stystem!

@Bahnsteig4 - u didn't disappointed me again! [auf dich kann man sich immer verlassen, Kumpel, wenn's um Fotos geht! ]
The problem with the construction time in Köln is, that Köln is an old roman city. And in Germany the archaeolgists have the right to stopp every construction if they find something. As in Köln you can find in every sqm something from the romans, like cellars and foundations, you can see that 3 years is not so many time...


BTW here are the webcams of the "Nord-Süd-Stadtbahn"-construction:
http://stadtbahn.relaunch.net/webcams/index.html

...and on this photogallery you can see the recovery of an old roman ship. --> http://stadtbahn.relaunch.net/galerien/schiffsfund.html
__________________
All photos posted by me are taken by my own if not mentioned otherwise.

Last edited by AAPMBerlin; December 9th, 2008 at 09:45 AM.
AAPMBerlin no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2008, 10:31 AM   #43
Bahnsteig4
.
 
Bahnsteig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Vienna.
Posts: 5,707
Likes (Received): 93

Quote:
but apparently some of you (bahnsteig or whatever the hell your name is) cannot get past your own reflexive sensitivity
__________________
VIENNA - Should Europe fear this city?

Austrian Forum - Support our Skybar!


Yes, for ****'s sake, all pictures I post were TAKEN BY ME
Bahnsteig4 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2008, 01:28 PM   #44
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,074
Likes (Received): 8821

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAPMBerlin View Post
The problem with the construction time in Köln is, that Köln is an old roman city. And in Germany the archaeolgists have the right to stopp every construction if they find something. As in Köln you can find in every sqm something from the romans, like cellars and foundations, you can see that 3 years is not so many time...


BTW here are the webcams of the "Nord-Süd-Stadtbahn"-construction:
http://stadtbahn.relaunch.net/webcams/index.html

...and on this photogallery you can see the recovery of an old roman ship. --> http://stadtbahn.relaunch.net/galerien/schiffsfund.html
Those webcams show the surprising scale of the project! I'm a huge fan of the Stadtbahn form of public transport in cities of Köln's size so I'm pleased to see it being improved.
Svartmetall no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2008, 05:55 AM   #45
leo_sh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 640
Likes (Received): 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahnsteig4 View Post
A very Chinese point of view, if I may say so. You, too, will that cars, cars, cars are no solution. It's not a question of whether or not you can afford a car - it's a question of what's the best way to reach your destination.
I am not advocating the use of cars. I am just pointing out the fact that the majority of German population relies on private cars. German public transport, although very impressive in comparison to N. America, still seems like window dressing to me. Automobile industry is one pillar of German economy, and their government in fact encourages the use of private cars, and most Germans are passionate car drivers.

My experience is that if I want to visit Neumarkt in Downtown from a neighboring city, I have to transfer between local traffic - train - local traffic - desitiny, which can cost over 2 hrs, under the condition that you don't miss the connection. If I drive, I can keep it between 1-1.5 hrs, even during the peak time. As the local bus company and Deutsche Bahn have frequent delays and, from time to time, total scraping of schedules, Autobahn is often on the safer side. As most Germans live in smaller towns but work in big cities, I think they have the similar experiences.

When I am in China, I totally rely on the public transport. It is freqent and reaches every corner of the country. The private car is strictly only for holidays and impressing people.

Last edited by leo_sh; December 10th, 2008 at 06:02 AM.
leo_sh no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2008, 06:10 AM   #46
goschio
proud Kuffar
 
goschio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Ujerumani
Posts: 6,060
Likes (Received): 4266

^
Agree, private cars are the most convenient type of transport. Even in Frankfurt I always drive because it is just quicker and I don't have to cope with the people in public transport.
goschio no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2008, 06:18 AM   #47
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,074
Likes (Received): 8821

Quote:
Originally Posted by leo_sh View Post
I am not advocating the use of cars. I am just pointing out the fact that the majority of German population relies on private cars. German public transport, although very impressive in comparison to N. America, still seems like window dressing to me. Automobile industry is one pillar of German economy, and their government in fact encourages the use of private cars, and most Germans are passionate car drivers.

My experience is that if I want to visit Neumarkt in Downtown from a neighboring city, I have to transfer between local traffic - train - local traffic - desitiny, which can cost over 2 hrs, under the condition that you don't miss the connection. If I drive, I can keep it between 1-1.5 hrs, even during the peak time. As the local bus company and Deutsche Bahn have frequent delays and, from time to time, total scraping of schedules, Autobahn is often on the safer side. As most Germans live in smaller towns but work in big cities, I think they have the similar experiences.

When I am in China, I totally rely on the public transport. It is freqent and reaches every corner of the country. The private car is strictly only for holidays and impressing people.
How much bigger are most Chinese cities relative to German cities? (The answer is a lot).

One has to consider that providing public transport to a larger population is far easier than providing one to a small population. Thus, in this respect, I think that Germany (and neighbouring countries Switzerland and Austria) manage very well. It's also not worth counting the number of automobiles per head of population as the UK, a country with lower car ownership than Germany actually has a greater number of vehicle km per person per year than Germany despite being a more compact country, hinting that people utilise their cars more.

When we consider public transport patronage, most mid-sized and larger German cities have PT usage figures of an average of ~180 to 250+ journies per head of population per year (excluding DB and other private rail operators not covered by the verkehrsbund for that region), a figure which leaves many western nations in the dust. It is this figure that shows me that PT is still used by a good number of people at one time or another.

I would also question the validity of your assertation regarding public transport in China. Whilst the metros of each of the various city may be peripheral in the total modal share, if we consider the frequencies and coverage that the Beijing and Shanghai metros currently have relative to the size of the respective cities, you'll see that they're rather lacking, though this is very swiftly being rectified, building large metros is still inefficient for a large city as metros are designed for mid-range journeys not long range across a megalopolis.

Also, please point out to me how China is more accessible by public transport than Germany. From what I've found in my experience, almost every corner of the country can be reached. The UK is the same too, there are very few settlements that can't be reached by public transport and the UK is the black sheep in Europe with regards to PT!
Svartmetall no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2008, 06:40 AM   #48
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,074
Likes (Received): 8821

In addition to my post above, does this really have to become a "vs" thing? Can't we just look at the systems for their individual merits and say "yes that's a pretty good system for that particular city" rather than comparing to what exists elsewhere in the world as those systems you're comparing to might not work in this particular city - apples and oranges.
Svartmetall no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2008, 07:08 AM   #49
leo_sh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 640
Likes (Received): 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
How much bigger are most Chinese cities relative to German cities? (The answer is a lot).

I would also question the validity of your assertation regarding public transport in China. Whilst the metros of each of the various city may be peripheral in the total modal share, if we consider the frequencies and coverage that the Beijing and Shanghai metros currently have relative to the size of the respective cities, you'll see that they're rather lacking, though this is very swiftly being rectified, building large metros is still inefficient for a large city as metros are designed for mid-range journeys not long range across a megalopolis.

Also, please point out to me how China is more accessible by public transport than Germany. From what I've found in my experience, almost every corner of the country can be reached. The UK is the same too, there are very few settlements that can't be reached by public transport and the UK is the black sheep in Europe with regards to PT!
Very simple: Before there were metro-networks in SH & BJ, people just used buses, bicycles, and even on foot. Walking one hour to your office is unthinkable in the West but it was very viable in China 10 or 20 years ago.

Unlike the developed countries where people work in the cities while living in the suburbs, the most industrial population in China live in the downtowns in compact commie blocks. Many big enterprises offer housings for their employees within their own compounds. The population in suburbs, in the countryside, & in the small towns, were strictly agricultural or restricted in the local businesses and industry. There was virtually nobody in China traveling from town to town just to get to the workplace. That is why there is very few commuting trains in China and most people use train only for long distance traveling.

Developing satellite towns in SH & BJ is just a very recent phenomenon after the metro network has been extended there.
leo_sh no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2008, 07:26 AM   #50
leo_sh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 640
Likes (Received): 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
In addition to my post above, does this really have to become a "vs" thing? Can't we just look at the systems for their individual merits and say "yes that's a pretty good system for that particular city" rather than comparing to what exists elsewhere in the world as those systems you're comparing to might not work in this particular city - apples and oranges.
I don't want do a "vs" thing here, especially between Germany and China. But somehow I still don't feel very good when some Americans say look, they are doing better than us, while pointing at Germans, Swedes, etc.. I just want to point out, whatever their rhetorics are, most Northern Europeans (in this case including Germans, Dutch) are as heavily reliant on private transport as North Americans.

If you want to find more efficient PT systems, you can go to Southern Europe, such as Rome, Madrid, Athens. It is not because they have better planning or higher consciousness. It is just because they are less developed and they cannot afford two cars per family, not even one. Rome has only two metro lines and a very chaotic bus network, but it looks like a much more lively and useful system.
leo_sh no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2008, 08:36 AM   #51
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,074
Likes (Received): 8821

Quote:
Originally Posted by leo_sh View Post
I don't want do a "vs" thing here, especially between Germany and China. But somehow I still don't feel very good when some Americans say look, they are doing better than us, while pointing at Germans, Swedes, etc.. I just want to point out, whatever their rhetorics are, most Northern Europeans (in this case including Germans, Dutch) are as heavily reliant on private transport as North Americans.

If you want to find more efficient PT systems, you can go to Southern Europe, such as Rome, Madrid, Athens. It is not because they have better planning or higher consciousness. It is just because they are less developed and they cannot afford two cars per family, not even one. Rome has only two metro lines and a very chaotic bus network, but it looks like a much more lively and useful system.
Sorry, I agreed with your sentiments until you mentioned Rome and Athens with regards to public transport. There goes the argument completely. As I said I don't want to be drawn into a "vs" war I'll let someone else pick apart why Rome and Athens don't do quite so well on the PT front. True their urban densities are impressive, however, density does not = less private vehicle km per head of population (which is the key measure NOT number of cars) nor does it mean that they possess efficient PT systems.

You're trying to make the false assumption with your statements that urban form is the sole factor in determining transport use and provision which is a faulty premise. True, it is a big driving factor, however, having slightly lower density cities (as northern European cities still post fairly impressive densities) does not mean that public transport doesn't work. Look at Vienna where a sizable portion of the city commute by bike, walking or public transport with these dominating the modal share. Stockholm too sees an impressive modal share with 2.3 million journeys a day by PT alone yet that is a much lower density city than many German cities.

FYI: Rome has 1.95 million private vehicles registered in a city of 2.7 million giving an ownership rate of 72.2%. By your reckoning people living in Rome obviously commute by private vehicle more than other northern European cities of a similar size.

Last edited by Svartmetall; December 10th, 2008 at 08:56 AM.
Svartmetall no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2008, 10:23 AM   #52
leo_sh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 640
Likes (Received): 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Sorry, I agreed with your sentiments until you mentioned Rome and Athens with regards to public transport. There goes the argument completely. As I said I don't want to be drawn into a "vs" war I'll let someone else pick apart why Rome and Athens don't do quite so well on the PT front. True their urban densities are impressive, however, density does not = less private vehicle km per head of population (which is the key measure NOT number of cars) nor does it mean that they possess efficient PT systems.

You're trying to make the false assumption with your statements that urban form is the sole factor in determining transport use and provision which is a faulty premise. True, it is a big driving factor, however, having slightly lower density cities (as northern European cities still post fairly impressive densities) does not mean that public transport doesn't work. Look at Vienna where a sizable portion of the city commute by bike, walking or public transport with these dominating the modal share. Stockholm too sees an impressive modal share with 2.3 million journeys a day by PT alone yet that is a much lower density city than many German cities.

FYI: Rome has 1.95 million private vehicles registered in a city of 2.7 million giving an ownership rate of 72.2%. By your reckoning people living in Rome obviously commute by private vehicle more than other northern European cities of a similar size.
Rome is maybe a wrong example, but it does give me an impression that the PT system there really intends to carry the working population around. Could you please give me the source of your statistics?

I don't know much about Stockholm. But its urban form looks kinda special. It is spread on a series of islands and penisulas. The vast waterways make the driving quite tough.
leo_sh no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2008, 08:24 PM   #53
particlez
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 532
Likes (Received): 106

^it shouldn't be a 'VS' thread. but the original point stands. auto penetration DOES detract from urbanity, the environment, and finances.

Quote:
True, it is a big driving factor, however, having slightly lower density cities (as northern European cities still post fairly impressive densities) does not mean that public transport doesn't work. Look at Vienna where a sizable portion of the city commute by bike, walking or public transport with these dominating the modal share.
it's not that public transit does not work. mass car ownership DOES detract from the effectiveness of public transit itself! hypothetically, would vienna (or anyplace else) have a better PT system if its inhabitants had fewer cars/fewer garages/smaller percentage of infrastructure devoted to asphalt?
particlez no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2008, 09:52 PM   #54
leo_sh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 640
Likes (Received): 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by particlez View Post
^it shouldn't be a 'VS' thread. but the original point stands. auto penetration DOES detract from urbanity, the environment, and finances.



it's not that public transit does not work. mass car ownership DOES detract from the effectiveness of public transit itself! hypothetically, would vienna (or anyplace else) have a better PT system if its inhabitants had fewer cars/fewer garages/smaller percentage of infrastructure devoted to asphalt?
Very true. Cologne has a very neat high-volume, high-speed, road network cutting through the core of city. You have a myriad of parking houses lining from the Rhine bank through Central Station, Opera, Neumarkt, to Hansaring. You can stop anywhere and step out into the pedestrian zones. I really don't find any incentives to use the public transport.

BTW, I don't think Cologne is friendly towards bikes.
leo_sh no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2008, 10:16 PM   #55
Bahnsteig4
.
 
Bahnsteig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Vienna.
Posts: 5,707
Likes (Received): 93

Quote:
I really don't find any incentives to use the public transport.
Why then are all the trains full?
__________________
VIENNA - Should Europe fear this city?

Austrian Forum - Support our Skybar!


Yes, for ****'s sake, all pictures I post were TAKEN BY ME
Bahnsteig4 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2008, 10:38 PM   #56
particlez
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 532
Likes (Received): 106

^it's not that the trains are full. it's that the PT system would be even more heavily used, and investment into upgrades and expansions would be higher if fewer people were in the cars.
particlez no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2008, 11:07 PM   #57
leo_sh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 640
Likes (Received): 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahnsteig4 View Post
Why then are all the trains full?
Because the train is relatively infrequent. It comes one train per 10 mins during the peak hrs, 10-30 mins between peaks. Very few lines have shorter than 10 min intervals. Some lines have only peak hr service. Often 2-4 lines use the same rails and platforms, often at the same time due to the delays, causing an impression that it is very congested.

And there is very complicated fare system. I was fined 3 times, 40 euros every time, because I got the wrong ticket or I thought I could buy tickets on the train (sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. Some workers are a bit unfriendly towards non-Caucasian travelers.)
leo_sh no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2008, 05:46 AM   #58
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,074
Likes (Received): 8821

Quote:
Originally Posted by leo_sh View Post
Because the train is relatively infrequent. It comes one train per 10 mins during the peak hrs, 10-30 mins between peaks. Very few lines have shorter than 10 min intervals. Some lines have only peak hr service. Often 2-4 lines use the same rails and platforms, often at the same time due to the delays, causing an impression that it is very congested.

And there is very complicated fare system. I was fined 3 times, 40 euros every time, because I got the wrong ticket or I thought I could buy tickets on the train (sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. Some workers are a bit unfriendly towards non-Caucasian travelers.)
During the week the Stadtbahn runs at 10 minute frequencies off-peak and many routes are bundled. The S-bahn runs at 20 minute peak frequency and 20/30 minute off-peak frequency (but then it's a commuter rail system, what do you expect)? Many of these lines are also backed up by RB/RE/IC/ICE services with stops at key stations as the S-bahn system in Köln is a small part of the S-bahn Rhein-Ruhr.

If you were using the PT network, why not buy a day pass or week pass and save yourself the trouble of being caught out by a fare system? I personally think that the German fare systems due to completely integrated transit are some of the most simple out there. In Auckland I have to own 4 different passes for each bus operator and still pay separately for the trains. All of the trains and buses run their own zoning system for fares. Confused yet? Also, of course conductors will be rude to people who don't have tickets! They will simply think that you're trying to fare dodge and that is very much frowned upon. If you had stolen something from a shop, would you expect a good response from a shop keeper if you were caught?

Is there a particular reason you're trolling this thread (as you're not doing it for any other city) because it appears that you have a grudge against Cologne and its public transit? Despite what you claim about PT patronage, 252.1 million people use systems from the KVB every year giving an average ridership of 253.27 per head of population per year. This excludes the ridership on the S-bahn.

Last edited by Svartmetall; December 11th, 2008 at 05:52 AM.
Svartmetall no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2008, 05:59 AM   #59
particlez
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 532
Likes (Received): 106

^gee, at least address the issue of automobile ownership. unless you're a disciple of robert moses, you must admit to some level of nefarious impact. even places with high automobile ownership rates yet low aggregate mileage need to base much of their transport budget around the car.
particlez no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2008, 06:15 AM   #60
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,074
Likes (Received): 8821

Quote:
Originally Posted by particlez View Post
^gee, at least address the issue of automobile ownership. unless you're a disciple of robert moses, you must admit to some level of nefarious impact. even places with high automobile ownership rates yet low aggregate mileage need to base much of their transport budget around the car.
But this has nothing to do with the discussion!

Even Japan, a highly rail based country has a surprisingly high rate of car ownership and quite high car use (especially outside of the main Osaka/Tokyo rail corridors) so it afflicts ALL wealthy nations to varying degrees despite the provision and patronage of PT. What is important it the provision of PT to each part of the city, the provision of intercity transport, the average use of PT per head of population and the service levels in that city and whether or not they are viable. From what I've shown you with figures and from what you can research on the VRS, KVB, VRR and DB websites you can see that there is quite an amazingly comprehensive coverage for a city of under 1 million people as well as excellent connections throughout the metropolitan region. Therefore, I have to ask what is the argument?

This isn't a discussion about the impact of cars on transit in cities (as that discussion would go on forever).
Svartmetall no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium