daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 12th, 2008, 04:06 AM   #81
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,074
Likes (Received): 8810

Much better post, thank you!

There are a few mitigating factors to consider, however, with regard to infrastructure spending to benefit the car between Britain and Germany. Unlike Britain, Germany has a lot of countries on their doorstep and is a significant hub in the trans-European network with freight and logistics playing a huge role in the demand for decent roading infrastructure as well as rail capacity and infrastructure. The problem being that although Germany has a developed railway network, not all European nations have the spare capacity for transport by rail as well as freight by road being the predominant form of logistics in many European countries as rail is requisitioned for passengers rather than freight which is the opposite of what is seen in the USA. This partly explains the excellent autobahn network that crosses the country.

Recently though there have been moves taken by the German government to recoup some of the costs associated with providing this service such as the tolling of all vehicles above a certain size on the autobahns. This should help recover some costs associated with the maintenance of the roads allowing capital to be invested elsewhere.

As for the effectiveness of the PT networks in relation to car ownership, well, of course it would be more effective if everyone said they hated the car, however, the point remains that the network there is currently more than adequate relative to the size of the city in this case. The problem lies beyond the city core when people decide to do a long distance commute from other urban areas not so well served as Leo hints at in his posts. This is a problem no matter where you are in the world as exurbs, or in Germany's case, old established and self-contained villages are always going to be under serviced relative to the "big city". Of course, as Singapore is a highly planned city state, it doesn't have these old established outlying communities to consider when planning its transport infrastructure making their task much easier.

Last edited by Svartmetall; December 12th, 2008 at 04:41 AM.
Svartmetall no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 12th, 2008, 12:58 PM   #82
DiggerD21
spaghetti polonaise
 
DiggerD21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hamburg, Wroclaw
Posts: 2,540
Likes (Received): 1356

Quote:
Originally Posted by particlez View Post
cologne has obvious advantages over auckland, or even most british cities. what i have been arguing all along is; cologne's PT system would be even more efficient if its residents did not embrace the car.
Maybe it would help to reduce the free parking possibilities in the center in order to "force" people to use public transport? For example in Hamburg the problem to find parking space free of charge is one of the major factors why many (, also wealthy) people use PT. Arriving in the center by car is much faster than by PT, but the time saving is eaten up by the search for a parking place which doesn't charge you the amount of more than one single PT ticket.
DiggerD21 está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2008, 01:11 PM   #83
bennyboy777
Closed Account
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Perth
Posts: 192
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
What I meant by my statement about the chicken and egg is that high automobile use results from a lack of PT alternatives rather than preventing money being channelled into PT initiatives which is what your statement hints at. Again though, you'll find articles out there which do claim that in areas of high automobile use the investment in PT is unattractive which is why I said opinion is divided on the subject. You also refused to refute my information regarding the UK and car use relative to Germany despite having a lower car ownership rate. If you cannot do this, how can you call me the ignorant one when I have provided a case study to the contrary of your statement? This can be seen in the UK Commission for Integrated Transport which states that car ownership in Germany is 504 per 1000 compared with 399 in the UK, yet average vehicle km in the UK is 10,738 pkm/year compared with 9,025 pkm/year showing that Germans use their cars less despite owning more (information correct at the time of the study).
There is one problem with this statement. The German's own 508 cars per 1,000 people and the British own 373 cars per 1,000 people but the the British only drive about 1,713 kilometers per year/car more than the Germans despite the German car ownership rates being 26% higher than the British. The British only drive 15% per car more than the Germans do. This tells me that the Germans use their car's more than the British despite the Germans having much better public transport systems than the British. There is more that influences public transport ridership statistics than if the system is good enough or not.

Last edited by bennyboy777; December 12th, 2008 at 01:36 PM.
bennyboy777 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2008, 01:31 PM   #84
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,074
Likes (Received): 8810

Quote:
Originally Posted by bennyboy777 View Post
There is one problem with this statement. The German's own 508 cars per 1,000 people and the British own 373 cars per 1,000 people but the the British only drive about 1,713 kilometers per year/car more than the Germans despite the German car ownership rates being 26% higher than the British. The British only drive 15% per car more than the Germans do. This tells me that the Germans use their car's more than the British despite the Germans having much better public transport systems than the British. There is more that influences public transport ridership statistics than if the system is good enough or not.
It is per passenger km, not per car that those figures are from.

Coupled with this, public transport use per head of population is higher in all German cities on average than it is in British cities. Even small cities such as Erfurt (pop ~200,000 with 180.54 trips by PT per head of population per year) show significant modal splits compared to similar sized British cities like Northampton (pop ~200,000 with approximately 117.5 trips by PT per head of population per year). Thus even if they do use their cars more by your calculations, they also use public transport more hinting at a more mobile population on the whole.

It's also wrong to say "car dependent" as that implies there is no alternative or that alternatives are not utilised, the case is more that even though there are cars, there are alternatives and they are utilised.

Last edited by Svartmetall; December 12th, 2008 at 01:49 PM.
Svartmetall no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2008, 01:34 PM   #85
bennyboy777
Closed Account
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Perth
Posts: 192
Likes (Received): 0

Ah I see. The Germans just travel more.
bennyboy777 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2008, 01:36 PM   #86
bennyboy777
Closed Account
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Perth
Posts: 192
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
It's also wrong to say "car dependent" as that implies there is no alternative or that alternatives are not utilised, the case is more that even though there are cars, there are alternatives and they are utilised.
Fixed that bit of my statment
bennyboy777 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2008, 04:34 AM   #87
bennyboy777
Closed Account
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Perth
Posts: 192
Likes (Received): 0

How about these statistics. They show a very different picture:

Motor vehicles (most recent) by country

#1 United States: 765 motor vehicles per 100 p
#2 Luxembourg: 686 motor vehicles per 100 p
#3 Malaysia: 641 motor vehicles per 100 p
#4 Australia: 619 motor vehicles per 100 p
#5 Malta: 607 motor vehicles per 100 p
#6 Italy: 566 motor vehicles per 100 p
#7 Canada: 563 motor vehicles per 100 p
#8 New Zealand: 560 motor vehicles per 100 p
#9 Austria: 558 motor vehicles per 100 p
#10 Japan: 543 motor vehicles per 100 p
#11 Portugal: 537 motor vehicles per 100 p
#12 Iceland: 522 motor vehicles per 100 p
#13 Norway: 494 motor vehicles per 100 p
#14 Belgium: 484 motor vehicles per 100 p
#15 Spain: 471 motor vehicles per 100 p
#16 Cyprus: 450 motor vehicles per 100 p
#17 Lebanon: 434 motor vehicles per 100 p
#18 United Kingdom: 426 motor vehicles per 100 p
#19 Netherlands: 417 motor vehicles per 100 p
#20 Slovenia: 413 motor vehicles per 100 p

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/tr...motor-vehicles

What do you guys think?
bennyboy777 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2008, 06:13 PM   #88
leo_sh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 640
Likes (Received): 17

It is not car ownership, density. It is rooted in Germany's historical and present realities, and its long-standing governmental policies.

1. Automobile is the pillar of German industry. It is one of the biggest employers, most popular export goods, highest paid manufacturing job.

2. Germany has a strange dislike towards big cities. The Federal and the local governments have consequential policies favoring small towns and villages.

3. Roadbuilding is an important part of Germany's political horsetrading. Build a road into the village/settlement is much more cost-efficient to win votes than raising the bus frequency and widening the rail network.

But Germany still has impressive PTs. Why? Because Germany is also the most important bus and rail facility manufacturer! Somehow they have to find a place for those technically and qualitatively excellent but forbiddingly expensive Mercedez-Benz and M.A.N. buses and Siemens trams and metro rolling stocks.
leo_sh no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2008, 08:18 PM   #89
Justme
Gotta lite?
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Manchester (Forecast: Rain)
Posts: 4,952
Likes (Received): 780

Quote:
Originally Posted by bennyboy777 View Post
How about these statistics. They show a very different picture:

Motor vehicles (most recent) by country

#1 United States: 765 motor vehicles per 100 p
#2 Luxembourg: 686 motor vehicles per 100 p
#3 Malaysia: 641 motor vehicles per 100 p
#4 Australia: 619 motor vehicles per 100 p
#5 Malta: 607 motor vehicles per 100 p
#6 Italy: 566 motor vehicles per 100 p
#7 Canada: 563 motor vehicles per 100 p
#8 New Zealand: 560 motor vehicles per 100 p
#9 Austria: 558 motor vehicles per 100 p
#10 Japan: 543 motor vehicles per 100 p
#11 Portugal: 537 motor vehicles per 100 p
#12 Iceland: 522 motor vehicles per 100 p
#13 Norway: 494 motor vehicles per 100 p
#14 Belgium: 484 motor vehicles per 100 p
#15 Spain: 471 motor vehicles per 100 p
#16 Cyprus: 450 motor vehicles per 100 p
#17 Lebanon: 434 motor vehicles per 100 p
#18 United Kingdom: 426 motor vehicles per 100 p
#19 Netherlands: 417 motor vehicles per 100 p
#20 Slovenia: 413 motor vehicles per 100 p

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/tr...motor-vehicles

What do you guys think?
That's all motor vehicals which includes trucks etc. The other is just cars which is more relevate to people commuting.
__________________
I'm doing my bit to save bandwidth by deleting my signature
Justme no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2008, 08:34 PM   #90
AAPMBerlin
Registered User
 
AAPMBerlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Grândola, Berlin
Posts: 389
Likes (Received): 94

Quote:
Originally Posted by bennyboy777 View Post
How about these statistics. They show a very different picture:

Motor vehicles (most recent) by country

#1 United States: 765 motor vehicles per 100 p
#2 Luxembourg: 686 motor vehicles per 100 p
#3 Malaysia: 641 motor vehicles per 100 p
#4 Australia: 619 motor vehicles per 100 p
#5 Malta: 607 motor vehicles per 100 p
#6 Italy: 566 motor vehicles per 100 p
#7 Canada: 563 motor vehicles per 100 p
#8 New Zealand: 560 motor vehicles per 100 p
#9 Austria: 558 motor vehicles per 100 p
#10 Japan: 543 motor vehicles per 100 p
#11 Portugal: 537 motor vehicles per 100 p
#12 Iceland: 522 motor vehicles per 100 p
#13 Norway: 494 motor vehicles per 100 p
#14 Belgium: 484 motor vehicles per 100 p
#15 Spain: 471 motor vehicles per 100 p
#16 Cyprus: 450 motor vehicles per 100 p
#17 Lebanon: 434 motor vehicles per 100 p
#18 United Kingdom: 426 motor vehicles per 100 p
#19 Netherlands: 417 motor vehicles per 100 p
#20 Slovenia: 413 motor vehicles per 100 p

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/tr...motor-vehicles

What do you guys think?
i think that this statisstic is completely shit! look at the site, and in this site germany doesn´t exist!!!!!

and you made an error: it´s per 1000 person (look at the bottom of the site!!)

the official statistic of germany: 660 motor per 1000person --> http://www.destatis.de/jetspeed/port...perty=file.pdf (page 355, last quarter)

this place germany at third place
__________________
All photos posted by me are taken by my own if not mentioned otherwise.
AAPMBerlin no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2008, 10:22 PM   #91
Justme
Gotta lite?
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Manchester (Forecast: Rain)
Posts: 4,952
Likes (Received): 780

Calm down, no need to get so aggressive.
__________________
I'm doing my bit to save bandwidth by deleting my signature
Justme no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2008, 11:44 PM   #92
AAPMBerlin
Registered User
 
AAPMBerlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Grândola, Berlin
Posts: 389
Likes (Received): 94

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme View Post
Calm down, no need to get so aggressive.
i´m not aggressive. only told the truth...
__________________
All photos posted by me are taken by my own if not mentioned otherwise.
AAPMBerlin no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2008, 05:46 AM   #93
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,074
Likes (Received): 8810

Quote:
Originally Posted by leo_sh View Post
It is not car ownership, density. It is rooted in Germany's historical and present realities, and its long-standing governmental policies.

1. Automobile is the pillar of German industry. It is one of the biggest employers, most popular export goods, highest paid manufacturing job.

2. Germany has a strange dislike towards big cities. The Federal and the local governments have consequential policies favoring small towns and villages.

3. Roadbuilding is an important part of Germany's political horsetrading. Build a road into the village/settlement is much more cost-efficient to win votes than raising the bus frequency and widening the rail network.

But Germany still has impressive PTs. Why? Because Germany is also the most important bus and rail facility manufacturer! Somehow they have to find a place for those technically and qualitatively excellent but forbiddingly expensive Mercedez-Benz and M.A.N. buses and Siemens trams and metro rolling stocks.
But then this is equally applicable to nearly every single western nation. Road building and supporting local industry through PT infrastructure is exactly what Japan, Spain, Britain, Sweden, you name it do.

Austria and Switzerland both possess more than adaquate road infrastructure and more than adaquate rail infrastructure without having quite the same political manipulation that you say exists in Germany so one has to ask whether or not the end result would have been similar anyway with highly developed infrastructure across the board.

The dislike of large cities is historical. Germany operates as a very decentralised nation compared with Britain and France where one city dominates the nations economy. Personally I prefer the decentralised model as it ensures investment across the whole nation rather than simply around the primary driving force for the economy as we see in Britain and France.
Svartmetall no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2008, 11:44 AM   #94
bennyboy777
Closed Account
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Perth
Posts: 192
Likes (Received): 0

The statistics that I grabbed were from the same site as the other statistics that Justme got before.
bennyboy777 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2008, 08:14 PM   #95
Justme
Gotta lite?
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Manchester (Forecast: Rain)
Posts: 4,952
Likes (Received): 780

Quote:
Originally Posted by bennyboy777 View Post
The statistics that I grabbed were from the same site as the other statistics that Justme got before.
True, but there is a very big difference between all motor vehicles, of which many are not used for commuting or personal travel (of which this discussion relating to public transport is about) and cars.
__________________
I'm doing my bit to save bandwidth by deleting my signature
Justme no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2009, 09:58 AM   #96
JoKo65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,111
Likes (Received): 86

Cologne: Buildings collapsed because of underground transit system works?

Quote:
04.03.2009

Search for Survivors Resumes at Cologne's Collapsed Archive Building

Rescue teams Wednesday morning restarted the search for missing people after the collapse of the western German city of Cologne's historical archives centre and two neighboring buildings.


Overnight, police lowered the number of missing people to two, while other reports still spoke of five missing. Earlier, police had spoken of nine missing, but subsequently lowered the number.

Rescuers worked during the night to prevent the building from subsiding further, while firemen started to retrieve documents from the basement of an adjoining building which was not destroyed in the collapse, a fire brigade spokesman said.

A police spokesman said sniffer dogs used to search the rubble for those still missing may have detected victims. Rescue efforts, however, could only begin when rubble from the roof has been removed, for which heavy machinery was necessary.

But there were fears about their survival chances beneath the rubble.

"A quick rescue is not possible," according to the director of Cologne's fire department, Stefan Neuhoff. It was unlikely that there were any air holes in the rubble.

Speculation about the cause of the collapse is focused on new building work for the city's underground transit system, which runs directly below the archives.

City officials accused of negligence

Meanwhile, staff members accused the city authorities of having ignored earlier reports of damage to the building.

"A technician must be really stupid if such reports are not taken seriously," Eberhard Illner, a former long-time department director in the archives, was quoted as saying by the online edition of the Koelner Stadt-Anzeiger newspaper, accusing the authorities of grave neglect.

City authorities, however, rejected the accusations, saying that earlier expert studies dating from December 2008 said that cracks in the building did not affect the building's structural integrity.

"According to today's knowledge, the damage detected back then was not the cause of the accident," chief city administrative officer Guido Kahlen said.

Besides the possible human casualties, the damage to the city's historical archives - documenting Cologne's development over its 2,000-year history, was immense.

Illner told German radio that the damage was greater than that suffered in a fire at the historic Anna Amalia library in Weimar several years ago.

"We are talking here of about 18 kilometers of shelves of the most valuable archive material," he said.

nda/dpa/ksta.de
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4071595,00.html

Let's hope that none died!
__________________
L'Amerique? C'est l'évolution de la barbarie ŕ la décadence, sans toucher la culture.
JoKo65 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2009, 10:48 AM   #97
FabriFlorence
Registered User
 
FabriFlorence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Firenze
Posts: 1,772
Likes (Received): 401

Is not the first time unfortunatly. In Barcelona happened the same two or three years ago.
FabriFlorence no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2009, 10:49 AM   #98
goschio
proud Kuffar
 
goschio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Ujerumani
Posts: 6,060
Likes (Received): 4262

The building was ugly anyway. Good that it is gone.
goschio no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2009, 11:24 AM   #99
JoKo65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,111
Likes (Received): 86

Quote:
Originally Posted by goschio View Post
The building was ugly anyway. Good that it is gone.
It was one of the biggest european archives that is important, not how it looks.
__________________
L'Amerique? C'est l'évolution de la barbarie ŕ la décadence, sans toucher la culture.
JoKo65 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2009, 01:35 PM   #100
JoKo65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,111
Likes (Received): 86

Quote:
HISTORY BURIED IN THE RUBBLE

Cologne Archive Building Collapses

The building housing Cologne's municipal archive collapsed on Tuesday, bringing parts of some surrounding structures down with it. At least two people are missing. Some of the documents housed in the archive date back to the year 922.


[…]

Cologne's historical archive is the largest such municipal collection north of the Alps. It contains some 65,000 documents pertaining to the city's history, including one dating all the way back to the year 922. The archive also contains some half a million photographs. The building which collapsed on Tuesday was built in 1971 to house the archive.
Whole text: http://www.spiegel.de/international/...611158,00.html

Fotos: http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fo...cke-40278.html
__________________
L'Amerique? C'est l'évolution de la barbarie ŕ la décadence, sans toucher la culture.
JoKo65 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium