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Old January 20th, 2005, 11:11 AM   #241
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Hmm...maybe this gives it room for an extended version?
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Old January 20th, 2005, 11:18 AM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huaiwei
Hmm...maybe this gives it room for an extended version?
Isn't Airbus gonna come out with an A380-900 that's extended? I honestly wish they would just sell those. Longer planes seem too look cooler like the A340-600 and the Boeing 737-900.

I would love to see the A380-900. Hopefully the airlines would scratch the -800 and opt for the -900.

Edit: Heres a quote from Airlines.net on the A380

Quote:
Several A380 models are planned: the basic aircraft is the 555 seat A380-800 (launch customer Emirates). The 590 ton MTOW 10,410km (5620nm) A380-800F freighter will be able to carry a 150 tonne payload and is due to enter service in 2008 (launch customer FedEx). Potential future models will include the shortened, 480 seat A380-700, and the stretched, 656 seat, A380-900.
Link: http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=29
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Old January 20th, 2005, 11:20 AM   #243
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Hmm...as expected. What if they want to extend it further? A380-900 dosent give room for a new series of numbers! A380-1000??
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Old January 20th, 2005, 11:56 AM   #244
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Nice info FM 2258 . I hope they do build a A380-900. I bet that could carry about just short of a 1000 people.
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Old January 20th, 2005, 12:20 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huaiwei
Hmm...as expected. What if they want to extend it further? A380-900 dosent give room for a new series of numbers! A380-1000??
I'm thinking of A381, just like A321 vs. A320
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Old January 20th, 2005, 12:49 PM   #246
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what if they extend the A380... VERTICALLY!!

i want 4 decks of aero-love!
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Old January 20th, 2005, 01:36 PM   #247
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why have BA not signed up for any?
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Old January 20th, 2005, 01:55 PM   #248
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any interior design mate?
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Old January 20th, 2005, 03:50 PM   #249
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Pilots' warning on dangers of super jumbos
20 January 2005
The Daily Express

BRITISH pilots warned yesterday that they will not fly the A380 airbus unless safety fears are resolved.

Captain Mervyn Granshaw, chairman of the British Airline Pilots' Association (BALPA), said:

"We're worried about pilots being alert enough to fly for 20 or more hours. Safety has to be a priority.

"Flights will have to be planned in alignment with a pilot's body clock and sufficient rest, to enable them to undertake such long flights whilst still being able to carry out routine complex tasks as well as coping with emergencies."

Speaking the day after the launch of the super jumbo, which will carry up to 850 passengers, an industry source said: "We want these investigations carried out.

"If they do not do them and this is done on a wing and a prayer then we will not fly the damn things unless they get it right."
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Old January 20th, 2005, 04:10 PM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline
Pilots' warning on dangers of super jumbos
The B777-200LR with a longer range is more dangerous than the A380
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Old January 20th, 2005, 04:11 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpion
what if they extend the A380... VERTICALLY!!

i want 4 decks of aero-love!
May be it will be seen in Harry Potter film one day ?

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Old January 20th, 2005, 05:53 PM   #252
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@ MCarr : That's very true. Some airlines are now offering very long flights connecting cities that used to require a stopover. However, we see problems already surfacing on the passenger side during long flights - blood clots from inactivity. It seems like the A380 will have more room for passengers to move around, but will airlines eventually convert them into revenue-earning seats? Now we see the other side of the story - how crews are handling these long flights.
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Old January 20th, 2005, 05:59 PM   #253
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Quote:
And talking about that, how does playing the waiting game have any relation to the awarding of air traffic rights? CX being granted limited flights out of Heathrow seems more in relation to their requests for more rights out of HK to the Australian market, and in addition, CX isnt really expected to be a major threat to existing domination of that flight sector by existing carriers anyway. Compare that, to the "rioting" going on everytime SIA asks for similar rights, be it out of Heathrow, or out of Sydney to the US. They dont really care how long SIA has been demanding for those rights, do they?
Actually, Singapore Airlines complained to the Europeans immediately after the UK-HK bilateral air services agreement was signed. Soon the Singaporeans realized that they no longer have any bargaining power as they had struck an air services deal already and the conditions were already very liberal. Hong Kong waited and negotiated using the Australia factor and it was successful. Virgin just started flying the kangaroo route via Hong Kong and Qantas is expanding capacity to HK. In fact, Virgin is planning to use the A380 on their kangaroo route. It's not always how fast you can make a deal. Good deals aren't necessarily the fastest ones made. Nobody will make a deal with you if there is nothing to gain from it.
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Old January 20th, 2005, 07:17 PM   #254
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i had thought american airline companies wouldn't buy the A380!
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Old January 20th, 2005, 08:54 PM   #255
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Virgin are british and not from the US canada ect.
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Old January 20th, 2005, 08:58 PM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desven
i had thought american airline companies wouldn't buy the A380!
I think all American companies asked Airbus to have the choice to pick american engines instead of the british ones.
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Old January 21st, 2005, 05:38 AM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline
Actually, Singapore Airlines complained to the Europeans immediately after the UK-HK bilateral air services agreement was signed. Soon the Singaporeans realized that they no longer have any bargaining power as they had struck an air services deal already and the conditions were already very liberal. Hong Kong waited and negotiated using the Australia factor and it was successful. Virgin just started flying the kangaroo route via Hong Kong and Qantas is expanding capacity to HK. In fact, Virgin is planning to use the A380 on their kangaroo route. It's not always how fast you can make a deal. Good deals aren't necessarily the fastest ones made. Nobody will make a deal with you if there is nothing to gain from it.
That is an interesting way to look at things, although I dont exactly look at it in terms of the time factor. Its not about who is faster, or who is procrastinating, especially when we were talking about service innovation in this thread, and not of negotiating aviation rights.

My interpretation of the above, is that Singapore, since its independence, has always believed that a liberal aviation policy is good for its long-term prospects as an aviation hub, the same way an open-port policy has ensured that it remains the world's busiest maritime port for decades. This was so even before Singapore Airlines has managed to anchor itself as a force to recon with in the Asian aviation market, let alone the global one. The government believes, that it is in an openly competitive environment, that airport users will be served best, and if there is to be a Singaporean airline to be proud of, it has to stand the test of severe competition from any airline willing to compete with it even at its turf, as Qantas Airways in particular has done for a very long time.

It is because of this, that Qantas Airways has been able to establish its biggest overseas hub in Singapore, use it as her main stopover point to London in partnership with British Airways, become the second biggest airline operating out of Singapore's Changi Airport, as well as recently even setting up a new airline based at Changi Airport, competing head-to-head with SIA's own low-cost startup. Singapore Airlines and her group of affiliated companies, therefore, are kept on their toes constantly to match or better the competition. Without a liberal aviation policy from day one, we might see a very different Singapore Airlines, well sheltered from the torrents of global competition and therefore seeing no incentive to innovate and better itself, and even crumbling under its own weight, as has happened so often to many other airline companies.

With an aviation policy as liberal as this, few countries have reason to argue against opening up their air spaces in return.

In comparison, Hong Kong has been traditionally against the idea of open-skies, based largely on concerns over protecting local carriers, the same primary reason adopted by just about any other protectionist governmental policy. A study by the Hong Kong Policy Research Institute, refered to most often by the HK government with regards to its protectionist stance on this issue, argues, that given Hong Kong's "low" dominance of "local" carriers (even thou Cathay Pacific, for example, is controlled by British Swire Group), any opening up of aviation rights will further delude the abilities of local carriers to enforce the hub and spoke pattern. In particular, it points out, that so long that there is no equal playing ground in terms of differing levels of liberation, it sees no reason to end up being shortchanged. The US "open-skies" aviation policy was singled out for its double standards, of opening up international routes, yet continuing to protect domestic routes from foreign carriers.

The ultimate determination to protect local carriers (Businessweek calls Cathay Pacific "one of Asia's best-protected carriers") shows through however, all the more by pointing out to factors which cant really be changed much, including in terms of geography (that HK does not have a domestic market, and that it has a small local population), and in terms of existing conditions (that there are already plenty of competition into and out of HKIA, and prices are not artificially high). It also argues, that open-skies policies cannot be transplated from city to city without further analysis, such as from Singapore, it pointed out. In particular, the following paragraph in the conclusive comments goes:
Quote:
The advocates simplistically argue that “open skies” can introduce competition into Hong Kong's air transport industry and thus enhance Hong Kong's competitiveness as an air hub. Our study has shown that if Hong Kong opens its skies unilaterally without an equitable exchange of economic opportunities, it is very likely that foreign airlines would out-compete Hong Kong's home-carriers under the current situation, resulting in a number of adverse and uncertain effects on the development of Hong Kong’s air transport industry in the long term.
That Hong Kong's aviation policy therefore prefers to adopt a policy via the "game theory approach," and to negotiate aviation rights under "a fair and equitable exchange of economic opportunities" without unilateral open-skies, is therefore considered a needed strategy to protect Hong Kong's aviation interests, the later of which are considered best taken care of by its own local carriers.

It appears to me, therefore, that the aviation policy adopted by Hong Kong is still very much a protectionist one, and which relies on one-to-one negotiations which is deemed fair for both sides. I do not see it coming across as one based on temporal concerns, of playing the waiting game for a better deal. Afterall, Cathay Pacific, like Singapore Airlines, has been pushing for the right to fly that trans-atlantic sector for years as well. If it indeed wants to play the waiting game, why bother to ask for those rights before the opportunity arises, such as when the Australia factor enters the picture?

We need to look more closely at the rights awarded to Cathay on that particular sector. Cathay has the rights for a single daily round trip service between London Heathrow and New York JFK, instead of two that it asked for. Secondly, being given the green light by the British authorities is not the final hurdle. It still needs approval from the American side. Even back at Heathrow, it will have to secure landing rights too, something which the airline admits is difficult to get. The rights to fly that sector has been awarded back in Novermber 2003. We are still waiting for the touted "round the world" flights promised to be offered when the route is launched.

Meanwhile, to quote from a media article, one Timothy Ross, "an analyst of UBS Warburg in Hong Kong, questioned whether flying one of the most competitive routes in the world would be profitable for Cathay".

Quote:
"I can't see it as a particular goldmine. If we look where profitability has declined the most in the airlines industry in the past three years, it's business-class traffic across the trans-Atlantic," Ross said.
Compare that to Singapore Airlines current aggressive attempts in trying to muscle into the Australia-United States market. The airline is seeking fully liberal rights between the two markets to fully conclude the recently negotiated Singapore-Autralia open skies policy, and should it happen, the airline is planning to use the A380 on the Los Angeles-Sydney sector, extending from the traditional kangaroo route from Sydney to London via Singapore.

If all goes well, hence, four cities in four different markets across four continents may be the first to experience the A380 via Singapore Airlines when it takes to the air next year!
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Old January 21st, 2005, 06:56 AM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCarr
The B777-200LR with a longer range is more dangerous than the A380
True, 100% agreed.
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Old January 21st, 2005, 07:04 AM   #259
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Thursday January 20, 10:39 PM
Airbus A380 orders near 250 including options - CEO

PARIS (Reuters) - Airbus has close to 250 potential orders for its A380 superjumbo when options already granted to airlines are added to the 149 existing orders and commitments, Airbus CEO Noel Forgeard was quoted on Thursday as saying.

Airbus does not publish the number of options it grants to airlines on top of firm orders or interim commitments contained in a Memorandum of Understanding.

But Forgeard told Paris Match magazine in an interview that options would bring the total close to 250, which is widely considered the manufacturer's breakeven point for the A380 superjumbo inaugurated before European leaders on Tuesday.

"With 149 orders from 14 airlines, including the most recent order from (parcel service) UPS, plus options, we are not far from the 250 which we expected to reach by 2008," Forgeard told Paris Match.

Forgeard reiterated that China would probably buy the A380 soon, adding that he expected Air China to use the 555-seat double-decker jets for the 2008 Olympics.

He was also quoted as saying Airbus was not far off reaching its 10 percent operating margin target in 2004, having posted a margin of 9.6 percent in the first nine months.
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Old January 21st, 2005, 07:11 AM   #260
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interesting...

Quote:
The super-jumbo of all gambles
Jan 20th 2005 | TOULOUSE
From The Economist print edition

Airbus unveils its double-decker for a new era in aviation

SIR RICHARD BRANSON, founder of Virgin Atlantic, did not need to watch the Martin Scorsese, Leonardo DiCaprio award-winning movie, “The Aviator”, last Sunday to learn how critical the choice of new aircraft is (among other things) to an airline's fortunes. Nevertheless Sir Richard emerged from the film “quite inspired” before flying to Toulouse for the unveiling of his latest choice, the Airbus A380. This is the biggest passenger jet the world has seen, built to carry at least 555 passengers. He has decided, along with 13 other airline bosses (so far), that the A380 is going to make him money.

At a spectacular two-hour show featuring dancers, trapeze artists, fountains and holographic planes “flying” about the giant hangar, 4,500 guests saw the aircraft, with its double-decked body and curving wings, unveiled in gleaming white. But once the show was over and the celebrating politicians gone, the real work continued: to persuade the world's leading airlines that this is the plane to transform air travel, as the original “jumbo”, the Boeing 747, did 35 years ago—and that it is not a commercial dud like Concorde.




Like Howard Hughes, the subject of “The Aviator”, whose giant, eight-engined “Spruce Goose” eventually succeeded as Lockheed's Hercules troop carrier, Airbus is taking an enormous gamble on its double-decker, due to make its first test flight by the end of March for entry into service in June 2006. It has cost over €12 billion ($15 billion) to get this far, spread equally between Airbus, its industrial partners and the European governments that have advanced refundable launch loans. Airbus foresees a market for 1,650 super-jumbo aircraft (including freighters) over 20 years. It needs to sell half that to make money.

Those magnificent men

The bosses of the 14 airlines which have already agreed to buy some 149 A380s were in Toulouse to explain their decision. The A380 should cut the cost of carrying one passenger one mile by between 15% and 20%, compared with the 747, the “queen of the skies”. She is now entering her twilight years. Only ten freighter versions have been ordered in the past year, and production is down to about one 747 a month. Airlines that need very big planes have instead opted for the new Airbus, which the Toulouse plant is expected to produce at a rate of four aircraft a month.

Virgin and other carriers such as Singapore Airlines, Lufthansa and Emirates operate long-haul services, frequently using airports, such as London's Heathrow, where there are limited runway slots for take-off and landing. Some airlines on busy long-haul routes fly two 747s almost simultaneously, wing to wing. Putting their combined payload into one more efficient, larger aircraft plainly makes sense.

The A380 will initially be able to carry about 30% more passengers than the 747 in a conventional layout, with 50% more floor space. No wonder Sir Richard talks of adding gyms, bars, beauty parlours, casinos and private beds (“to give you two chances to get lucky”). Less populist, Tim Clark, president of Emirates, which has ordered 45 planes to fulfil its ambitions of establishing Dubai as a new global hub, says that business and first-class passengers will enter through separate doors to an exclusive upper deck. Like passengers on the old ocean liners, they will not have to mix with the cramped masses below.

The promised lower operating costs mean plenty of profit potential for airlines confident that they have enough heavy-traffic routes to fill most of the seats. Chris Avery of J.P. Morgan points out that, thanks to economies of scale and modern technology (the 747 was designed some 40 years ago), the A380 needs only 11% more passengers (323) than does a 747 to break even on a trip. Yet it can carry 232 more than that, from which it can profit. Even the biggest Boeing can cram in only 123 more than its 290-passenger break-even level.

Yet Boeing is convinced that Airbus is making a huge strategic error. Bosses of the Chicago-based company are wont to quote Napoleon on never interfering with your enemy when he is making a great mistake. But such bombast is now wearing thin as orders for the new Airbus roll in. Industry insiders are convinced that, by Easter, Airbus will have landed a Chinese order for the plane, while leading carriers such as Cathay Pacific and British Airways are merely sitting temporarily on the sidelines, waiting for the inevitable teething troubles to be sorted out and for the even bigger versions of the new aircraft expected before long.

Boeing's strongest argument is that the air-travel market is fragmenting. People want to travel direct to their long-haul destinations, not squeeze into huge planes before changing later to smaller ones at crowded hub airports in order to reach their final destination. The success of the 747 was ensured by the fact that its huge wings and fuel tanks allowed it to fly farther than any other plane. But smaller widebody jets half the size of the new Airbus can fly as far as the A380. These planes open up the long-haul market while reducing the airlines' risk, because they need to fill fewer seats to cover the trip cost.

Boeing thinks that there will be a market for barely 400 very large aircraft (ie, bigger than today's jumbos) over the next 20 years. It sought to address this demand with stretched versions of the latest 747s, but has had no takers. On the other hand, Boeing's chief executive, Harry Stonecipher, says that, if there turns out to be a far bigger market than it now expects, Boeing will certainly enter it.

Yet that might prove difficult. Mr Avery asks where Boeing would go to find customers. The long-haul airlines with the greatest need are already buying the new Airbus, and would have little incentive to wait at least three years for a Boeing super-jumbo to emerge. “It really does look like Boeing have missed the boat,” he says.

Airbus, having just beaten Boeing on deliveries for a second year (see chart), is delighted to have broken Boeing's monopoly for really big jets. It can even afford to launch a rival to Boeing's mid-sized 7E7, called the A350, even though the terms of a truce in the battle between Europe and America over government subsidies require it to use its own money for this spoiler. But two things could upset Airbus. In 1992 the Toulouse manufacturer thought it had stolen a huge lead on Boeing with its big A330-A340 widebodies. But Boeing struck back in 1995 with its all-new 777 model, which sold well at Airbus's expense. Airbus had thought its competitor would merely upgrade the 767, an older widebody. This time, another 747 upgrade, allowing up to 450 seats (about 30 more than today's jumbos), might drain off some demand for the new Airbus. The low development costs of a 747 upgrade would mean it could be priced keenly to counter the A380's lower operating costs.

Another potential nightmare for Airbus is that the airlines that have already ordered the new plane may give a false impression of likely long-term demand. What if these pioneers prove to be the bulk of the potential buyers? The new Airbus must also overcome the wariness of travellers about the hassle of getting in and out of such a giant craft (and, presumably, the consequent long queues at immigration). Maybe onboard bars will lure them.

Airbus bosses agree that passengers prefer, by and large, to fly direct. But hub-and-spoke economics combined with a 20% lower cost per passenger are strong grounds for believing that the A380 will become this century's long-haul workhorse, as the 747 was in the last one.
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