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Old January 21st, 2005, 07:17 AM   #261
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Someone posted these at SSP, I thought it was funny.
Thanks CTroyMathis,





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Old January 21st, 2005, 08:03 AM   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCarr
The B777-200LR with a longer range is more dangerous than the A380
All members of the 777 family have crew rest facilities for both pilots and stewardesses. I'm not sure if A380 will/does, but it is something that could easily be accomidated on the lower (cargo) deck.
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Old January 21st, 2005, 10:07 AM   #263
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Old January 21st, 2005, 10:08 AM   #264
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Hmm? Boeing 747-400ER?
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Old January 21st, 2005, 12:44 PM   #265
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That would be the new Beoing 747.
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Old January 21st, 2005, 12:59 PM   #266
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747-400ER was developed at 2002
Can see more detail as beow thread

Super Jumbo : A380 VS B747-"Advance"
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Old January 21st, 2005, 04:26 PM   #267
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The 747-400ER was driven much by Qantas for the direct Melbourne-LAX route. This 15 hour flight pushed the upper range of the existing -400 when returning west (due to winds), often needing to fuel stop in Sydney.

The -400ER has extra fuel tanks at the expense of cargo space to enable flights like the Melb-LAX route to fly direct each time, saving 1000's in landing costs..

That said.. how amazing is the A380 being that much bigger yet still having longer range!!
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Old January 21st, 2005, 05:21 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STR
All members of the 777 family have crew rest facilities for both pilots and stewardesses. I'm not sure if A380 will/does, but it is something that could easily be accomidated on the lower (cargo) deck.
Obviously the A380 will have crew rest facilities as well.
As the 340-500 has, and probably all the 340's, although that i don't know about.
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Old January 21st, 2005, 05:46 PM   #269
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I known A340 family's rest area located at the middle of lower level, one level down from passenger carbin and Boeing 747, at the rear of upper level
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Old January 21st, 2005, 06:49 PM   #270
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Friday January 21, 02:07 PM
British Airways says not shopping for A380

LONDON (Reuters) - British Airways, Europe's second-largest airline, says it has no current plans to buy the double-decker A380 aircraft but would consider the giant plane in its long-term fleet plans.

"Buying new aircraft is the single biggest capital outlay for any airline, and is not something we do simply to keep up with the Joneses," BA <BAY.L> Chief Executive Rod Eddington wrote in the airline's staff newspaper on Friday.

However, Eddington said the A380 may have a role to play in its long-term fleet development programme although the company would look at all alternatives.

BA said it operated a relatively young fleet of aircraft and did not need to replace planes, particularly while it was under pressure to cut debt and reduce costs.

"I've never subscribed to the concept of buy now while stocks last," Eddington said, referring to the A380.

Planemaker Airbus threw a glitzy party in France earlier this week to unveil the A380 -- the world's largest passenger aircraft -- which other airlines plan to fly from Heathrow airport where BA is based.
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Old January 21st, 2005, 07:07 PM   #271
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The fact that it's European is enough to make me a big fan of this nouveauté! Flying long distances really becomes enjoyable now! I can't wait to see one in reality.
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Old January 21st, 2005, 09:15 PM   #272
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Who comes out to be the first users of the A380 isn't important at all, just as national aviation authorities aren't keen on making the first bilateral services agreement the focus of their work. Finding a good deal is far more relevant than being first out of the block.

Quote:
In comparison, Hong Kong has been traditionally against the idea of open-skies, based largely on concerns over protecting local carriers, the same primary reason adopted by just about any other protectionist governmental policy. A study by the Hong Kong Policy Research Institute, refered to most often by the HK government with regards to its protectionist stance on this issue, argues, that given Hong Kong's "low" dominance of "local" carriers (even thou Cathay Pacific, for example, is controlled by British Swire Group), any opening up of aviation rights will further delude the abilities of local carriers to enforce the hub and spoke pattern. In particular, it points out, that so long that there is no equal playing ground in terms of differing levels of liberation, it sees no reason to end up being shortchanged. The US "open-skies" aviation policy was singled out for its double standards, of opening up international routes, yet continuing to protect domestic routes from foreign carriers.
This is clearly the case in the Hong Kong - UK bilateral air services agreement. You wait and see what the other side wants, and offer that in negotiations and ask for what you want. In the end, both Hong Kong and the UK were able to score major deals : Cathay was approved to fly across the Atlantic between New York and London while Virgin was approved to fly to Australia via Hong Kong.

Liberal aviation policies are beneficial to cities such as Hong Kong and Singapore. However, for larger countries such as Australia, national interests play a much larger role. The key is to give something to them that they need, rather than offer everything up front, score a deal, triumph that they came out first on the block, then turn around in a few years realizing that it could've been better. If you can't offer them anything, then don't expect them to offer anything back. Since Hong Kong was able to offer the British something they wanted, Cathay got the transatlantic route while SQ didn't.

Securing the rights to fly the route does a lot more than not being approved at all. Hong Kong has a bilateral air services with the US already so flying to New York is not an issue. Since the regulatory hurdles have been dealt with, secondary issues such as landing slots become easy to deal with. I'm not surprised that other rival airlines look at this sweet deal with jealousy, simply because very few non-native airlines have been granted rights to fly transatlantic.

Hong Kong has been expanding its open skies agreements with other countries in recent years. The latest one is with China. Once the dust settles and details worked out, Cathay will fly to Beijing, Shanghai, and Xiamen. Hong Kong has also scored similar deals with the Australians and the British - reasons why Cathay was given the New York - London route and why kangaroo routes can now stop in Hong Kong. Hong Kong will not jump the gun and get into agreements where it will not benefit, so I'm not surprised at all that no agreements occurred when there is no benefit to gain. Timing is key.

The key is not how many and how fast agreements are made, but rather what the content of the deals are. Hong Kong has waited to deal at the right time, and the results are sweet.

A380
There are some reservations about the A380. British pilots have complained about exhaustion of long flights, which isn't a problem solely associated with the A380, but with several cases of deep vein thrombosis (economy class syndrome) due to long flights, the issue of how long is "good" will definitely pop up in the future. Other issues that I can think of right now are all safety-related :

1. Outdated average weight assumptions can pose a significantly safety concern due to large passenger counts (even if they're off by 10%, a very heavy plane will be significantly overweight).

2. Since not many airports are equipped to handle the A380 yet, the plane may be restricted to operating a small number of routes, exposing the airline to route risk. What is an unexpected event strikes and wipes out traffic. The A380 may not be redeployed on other profitable routes.

3. If an in-flight emergency occurs and so few airports can handle the A380, will the plane be able to make an emergency landing?

I don't think these are issues large enough on their own to ground the plane, but these are examples of what airlines think about before they jump onto the A380 bandwagon. Clearly, many airlines have voiced reservations about ordering this plane, or any plane model for that matter. Perhaps once the guinea pigs try it out and find problems for Airbus to fix, then other airlines might feel more comfortable trying it out.
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Old January 22nd, 2005, 07:23 AM   #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline
Who comes out to be the first users of the A380 isn't important at all, just as national aviation authorities aren't keen on making the first bilateral services agreement the focus of their work. Finding a good deal is far more relevant than being first out of the block.
Not really. Lauch customers get plenty of international media coverage, as has happened when SIA first used the A445 to launch the longest scheduled passenger flights in the world. Secondly, launch customers, because they are taking a bigger gamble by being amonst the first to fly the planes, and because their purchase is a psychological boost to the plane maker if the customer is a well-regarded one, are often given massive discounts for their purchases.

Hence, being a launch customer can be a great deal indeed. You get the media coverage, and you get a good price too. Not only that, you have the potential to earn goodwill with the plane maker as well! Just because it is an early deal, it does not mean it has to be a bad one in the business sence, and vice versal of coz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline
This is clearly the case in the Hong Kong - UK bilateral air services agreement. You wait and see what the other side wants, and offer that in negotiations and ask for what you want. In the end, both Hong Kong and the UK were able to score major deals : Cathay was approved to fly across the Atlantic between New York and London while Virgin was approved to fly to Australia via Hong Kong.
As has been shown earlier, the Hong Kong authorities did not wait before clamouring for the right to fly across the Atlantic. They have been asking it for years, just as SIA did. Just as Cathay had to wait for a good opportunity like the Australian factor before it could secure the rights, SIA has to wait for such an opportunity too. And yes, opportunities like these do arise even in a supposedly "open-skies" environment, as will be explained below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline
Liberal aviation policies are beneficial to cities such as Hong Kong and Singapore. However, for larger countries such as Australia, national interests play a much larger role. The key is to give something to them that they need, rather than offer everything up front, score a deal, triumph that they came out first on the block, then turn around in a few years realizing that it could've been better. If you can't offer them anything, then don't expect them to offer anything back. Since Hong Kong was able to offer the British something they wanted, Cathay got the transatlantic route while SQ didn't.

Securing the rights to fly the route does a lot more than not being approved at all. Hong Kong has a bilateral air services with the US already so flying to New York is not an issue. Since the regulatory hurdles have been dealt with, secondary issues such as landing slots become easy to deal with. I'm not surprised that other rival airlines look at this sweet deal with jealousy, simply because very few non-native airlines have been granted rights to fly transatlantic.

Hong Kong has been expanding its open skies agreements with other countries in recent years. The latest one is with China. Once the dust settles and details worked out, Cathay will fly to Beijing, Shanghai, and Xiamen. Hong Kong has also scored similar deals with the Australians and the British - reasons why Cathay was given the New York - London route and why kangaroo routes can now stop in Hong Kong. Hong Kong will not jump the gun and get into agreements where it will not benefit, so I'm not surprised at all that no agreements occurred when there is no benefit to gain. Timing is key.

The key is not how many and how fast agreements are made, but rather what the content of the deals are. Hong Kong has waited to deal at the right time, and the results are sweet.
Hong Kong and Singapore are not exactly comparable. Singapore is an independent country, while Hong Kong is not. National interests play as much a role for Singapore as it does for countries many times its size, in fact, it probably plays a far bigger role here, due to our small size. Singapore adobts the open-skies policy, because it places the interests of its role as an aviation hub above that of protecting its airlines. This policy has been in place for decades, and has been publicly spelt out in recent years when Mr Lee Kuan Yew announced, that the government is not obliged to rescue SIA should it fail to meet the competition. He puts it across clearly, that if SIA and her affiliates interests has to be sacrificed for the good of the airport's hub status, then yes, it will happen.

An open-skies policy does not neccesarily mean its a fully free-for-all thing, as the HK study has pointed out with regards to the US open-skies policy. Being "open-skies" can merely mean a liberal stance towards the granting of rights, but it dosent mean the right is already pro-approved. Singapore still has to give the green light on a case by case basis, as well as negotiate for rights with other governments for aviation rights or total liberation, just as less liberal governments do. For example, Singapore signed an open-skies agreement with the UAE in February 2004, despite the two bases of Singapore and Dubai being open-skies hubs as well.

In the recent negotiations going on between Australia and Singapore for an open-skies pact, while Singapore was pushing for full rights to and from Australia and beyond, Australia too, was pushing for more access to other European destinations out of Singapore. In the earlier rounds of negotiations, there was speculation, that the Singapore authorities might hold back the approval of Qantas's Jetstar Asia's launch using Singapore as a hub, until the Australians grants Singapore Airlines access on the Autralia-US route. The Singaporean authorities gave the green light nontheless in the end, but this gives Singapore Airlines one more factor to push the Australian authorities into opening up that sector to SIA.

Talking about Jetstar Asia, Singapore's liberal open skies policy has made it one of the battle grounds for LCCs to emerge, just as it has in Bangkok. However, it is still not a free for all...just ask AirAsia's chief. A war of words between him and the Singaporean aviation authorities has frustrated his attempts to set up an AirAsia affiliate in Singapore, to the point that he has more or less given up on the idea.

To date, Singapore has fully liberal passenger and cargo open-skies policies on the international flights into and out of countries like the United States, Chile, Peru, Thailand, Brunei, Sri Lanka, United Arab Emirates, Australia (except the Australia-US sector, under re-negotiation soon), New Zealand, Tonga and Samoa.

Together with the rest of ASEAN, Singapore is also pursing open-skies pacts with China and India, two of the most important markets within Asia right now. Also, Singapore, together with Thailand and Brunei, are sphearheading an effort to make the entirety of ASEAN an open-skies zone modelled after the EU, and planned to be in force by 2008.

Singapore's early adoption of liberal aviation policies has given it an early head start in the fight for transit traffic, leaving late comers far behind in her wake. For example, the coverted kangaroo route has been flying overwelmingly through Singapore for decades, not just because of geography in being the shortest route between London and Australia, but also because of the liberal aviation pacts already in place. In addition, the might of Singapore Airlines alone in fighting the war with an alliance of British Airways/Qantas keeps them rooted to this location. Cathay pacific, being in the same alliance with BA and Qantas, is less likely to be seen as a competing threat. Rather, it is Virgin Atlantic flying via HK which is more likely to raise the ire of British Airways. Afterall, not only is Virgin a major competitor of BA, it is also 49% owned by Singapore Airlines!

Singapore Airline's inability to fly out of Heathrow over the Atlantic has become less of a major issue in recent decades, especially after it has bought into Virgin Atlantic. Current code-sharing arrangements now allows Singapore Airlines passengers to transfer to Virgin Atlantic flights out of Heathrow to Miami, Boston and Washington DC, as well as from Manchester to Orlando, while Virgin Atlantic passengers codeshare on the flights from Heathrow and Manchester to Singapore.

Seen in this regard, being given the right to fly once a day across the busy trans Atlantic route out of Heathrow seems puny compared to being given full liberty to fly any amount of flights not only to, but also beyond the said territories, something SIA is seeking out of Australia to the US. Cathay Pacific still has no rights to fly beyond the United States to any destination, including London, contrary to what has been said earlier, so regulatory hurdles has yet to be cleared. In addition, Cathay Pacific itself was the one acknowledging that the securing of landing slots at Heathrow will be difficult. That the flights have yet to commence is a testimony to the hurdles still in existance. It is not just a case of others feeling "jealous and sore" about it.

The opening up of ex-Heathrow flights by the British authorities may be the key event for other non-native airlines to base their case for the right to fly that sector. Should Singapore Airlines succeed in being given that right, and should it be able to bid for the required landing slots at Heathrow, it will be able to fly to the US without needing consent from the later, since it already has an open skies policy with them.

In comparison, how many open skies policies does Hong Kong has with?
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Old January 22nd, 2005, 07:47 AM   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline
A380
There are some reservations about the A380. British pilots have complained about exhaustion of long flights, which isn't a problem solely associated with the A380, but with several cases of deep vein thrombosis (economy class syndrome) due to long flights, the issue of how long is "good" will definitely pop up in the future. Other issues that I can think of right now are all safety-related :

1. Outdated average weight assumptions can pose a significantly safety concern due to large passenger counts (even if they're off by 10%, a very heavy plane will be significantly overweight).

2. Since not many airports are equipped to handle the A380 yet, the plane may be restricted to operating a small number of routes, exposing the airline to route risk. What is an unexpected event strikes and wipes out traffic. The A380 may not be redeployed on other profitable routes.

3. If an in-flight emergency occurs and so few airports can handle the A380, will the plane be able to make an emergency landing?

I don't think these are issues large enough on their own to ground the plane, but these are examples of what airlines think about before they jump onto the A380 bandwagon. Clearly, many airlines have voiced reservations about ordering this plane, or any plane model for that matter. Perhaps once the guinea pigs try it out and find problems for Airbus to fix, then other airlines might feel more comfortable trying it out.
Reservations concerning long flights are not exclusive to the A380. They plague just about any long-haul flight, and are more of a concern to super-long haul routes such as those flown by the A345. Be it in terms of concerns for the pilots or the passengers, airlines can overcome them so long that they have the financial means to do so. For example, Singapore airlines uses 4 pilots on rotating shifts for the A345. It also offers generous space and leg room for all passengers, including economy, by having just 117 seats, as well as "passengers' corners" where people can stretch their legs and socialise.

For the A380, Singapore Airlines has announced, that they will be having at most 500 seats, or 480 in some later reports, giving room for more entertainment options and more leg room.

For the other points:

1. Weight issues are to be expected, but as the plane develops, new weight tests are naturally to be expected. It is unlikely for the plane to be delivered, and for airlines to risk overloading these planes, if weight issues are still not solved by then.

2. This is not really "safety" related...but business related. Airlines can be expected to have done their sums before purchasing the plane. We will need massive global phenomena to strike before we can knock out the use of airports in London, Singapore and Sydney, for example, if we are looking at SIA's maiden flight route. If such an event were to happen, I doubt the few planes operated by the relevant airlines will constitute that much of a lost compared to the far larger number of flights operated by smaller planes.

3. This issue has to be addressed by plane makers and airliners before it rolls out, obviously. It is said, that most major airports able to handle the B747 will be able to handle the A380 as well. In fact, whati is more cause for concern, is the evacuation plan for passengers should an emergency arise.

The introduction of the B747 did raise similar questions about its viability and safety issues. It has been several decades, and the plane seems to be doing very well still. The prioneering airliners will be forever remembered as the brave "guinea pigs" ready to try the plane out, and they score for the publicity it gives them. The effects of being seen as an innovative airliner willing to be at the forefront of technology and service excellence will probably win the airline more passengers and $$$ then airlines prefering to adopt a more cautionary approach, which although gives it more room to evaluate the experience of existing carriers, they have to fight for market share which has already been wrested away, and their attempts to overcome initial problems faced by pioneering airlines can be quickly eroded should pionering airlines react in kind.
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Old January 22nd, 2005, 08:07 AM   #275
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Quote:
As has been shown earlier, the Hong Kong authorities did not wait before clamouring for the right to fly across the Atlantic. They have been asking it for years, just as SIA did. Just as Cathay had to wait for a good opportunity like the Australian factor before it could secure the rights, SIA has to wait for such an opportunity too. And yes, opportunities like these do arise even in a supposedly "open-skies" environment, as will be explained below.
And after years of negotiations, an agreement was finally made because both sides offered something attractive and beneficial to each. The key is what can be offered and is it useful?

Quote:
Hong Kong and Singapore are not exactly comparable. Singapore is an independent country, while Hong Kong is not. National interests play as much a role for Singapore as it does for countries many times its size, in fact, it probably plays a far bigger role here, due to our small size. Singapore adobts the open-skies policy, because it places the interests of its role as an aviation hub above that of protecting its airlines. This policy has been in place for decades, and has been publicly spelt out in recent years when Mr Lee Kuan Yew announced, that the government is not obliged to rescue SIA should it fail to meet the competition. He puts it across clearly, that if SIA and her affiliates interests has to be sacrificed for the good of the airport's hub status, then yes, it will happen.
Hong Kong has taken a different approach in negotiating bilateral air services agreements. Hong Kong has been slow in scoring agreements, but when they do, big concessions arise. The British agreement signalled the first time Virgin would fly the kangaroo route via Hong Kong. For smaller cities, these agreements are important to maintain regional connections. However, since Hong Kong's airlines are independently-owned, there is less conflict of interest when implementing these agreements across airlines. While Dragonair was granted flights to Sydney under the Australia open skies agreement, Cathay was granted rights to fly to China under the Chinese open skies agreement.

Singapore has taken a different approach. Government ranks are involved in the running of SIA - the state-owned airline. Senior government officials have stepped out voicing concerns about job actions, for example.

Quote:
Singapore's early adoption of liberal aviation policies has given it an early head start in the fight for transit traffic, leaving late comers far behind in her wake. For example, the coverted kangaroo route has been flying overwelmingly through Singapore for decades, not just because of geography in being the shortest route between London and Australia, but also because of the liberal aviation pacts already in place. In addition, the might of Singapore Airlines alone in fighting the war with an alliance of British Airways/Qantas keeps them rooted to this location. Cathay pacific, being in the same alliance with BA and Qantas, is less likely to be seen as a competing threat. Rather, it is Virgin Atlantic flying via HK which is more likely to raise the ire of British Airways. Afterall, not only is Virgin a major competitor of BA, it is also 49% owned by Singapore Airlines!
This is in dispute, since other regional airports have successfully been chosen as stopover points for kangaroo flights. The biggest success story by far is Dubai, as Emirates wants to develop its own hub. Hong Kong and Bangkok have also been choices for stopovers. In fact, Virgin Atlantic was pushing very hard for the HK-UK air services agreement so they could fly to Australia through Hong Kong. So why would an airline 49% owned by SIA choose Hong Kong as the stopover point rather than codeshare through Singapore?

Hong Kong's primary market is not transit flights. Transit passengers offer very little value to the overall economy. Many stay in the airport awaiting their next flight and don't venture out to the city. Point-to-point traffic is far more value-adding. However, the number of transit flights have increased in recent years, notably to Australia, but also to Vietnam (United Airlines and Air Canada codeshare).

Quote:
Singapore Airline's inability to fly out of Heathrow over the Atlantic has become less of a major issue in recent decades, especially after it has bought into Virgin Atlantic. Current code-sharing arrangements now allows Singapore Airlines passengers to transfer to Virgin Atlantic flights out of Heathrow to Miami, Boston and Washington DC, as well as from Manchester to Orlando, while Virgin Atlantic passengers codeshare on the flights from Heathrow and Manchester to Singapore.
On the other hand, SIA officials expressed outrage and voiced their opposition once Cathay was granted rights to fly from New York to London. If flying their planes across the Atlatnic was so irrelevant to them, why such a reaction?

Running ahead with the first air services agreement may give a comfortable lead, but economics play a much larger role in how routes are planned. Bangkok poses a major threat to regional airports because of Thailand's massive tourism industry. Many airlines are already using Bangkok as a stopover point on their long-haul flights before continuing to other destinations in the region. If the market is there, even if there is no air services agreement, the airlines will still fight their way to get in there, as opposed to using an airport in a smaller market with free access. The ultimate decision is economics.

Quote:
Seen in this regard, being given the right to fly once a day across the busy trans Atlantic route out of Heathrow seems puny compared to being given full liberty to fly any amount of flights not only to, but also beyond the said territories, something SIA is seeking out of Australia to the US. Cathay Pacific still has no rights to fly beyond the United States to any destination, including London, contrary to what has been said earlier, so regulatory hurdles has yet to be cleared. In addition, Cathay Pacific itself was the one acknowledging that the securing of landing slots at Heathrow will be difficult. That the flights have yet to commence is a testimony to the hurdles still in existance. It is not just a case of others feeling "jealous and sore" about it.
The 2002 air services agreement between Hong Kong and the United States includes a codeshare deal between Cathay Pacific Airways and American Airlines, as well as extra cargo and passenger flights. The deal will increase the number of "fifth freedom" cargo flights from eight to 58 per week for both countries, while US and Hong Kong carriers will be allowed to make 56 passenger flights per week, up from 28.

The fifth freedom flights - which allow carriers to pick up cargo and passengers in Hong Kong and the US and continue to a third destination - will be phased in over two or three years, reported Reuters. This means that Cathay can pick up passengers in New York and fly them out to a third destination, namely London, which is why an agreement with the British was so crucial for all this to work.

Here are a few articles discussing the issue :

Hong Kong industry: A new aviation pact
From the Economist Intelligence Unit


The new bilateral aviation agreement between the US and Hong Kong significantly liberalises air transport between the two sides and should lead to a wider and more efficient choice of passenger and all-cargo services. Although the benefits of the deal are tilted towards US airlines--a predictable outcome in light of US negotiating muscle--the deal will also help to deepen and expand Hong Kong’s role as a regional aviation hub, and should boost traffic at the territory’s new and under-utilised Chek Lap Kok airport.

The agreement, signed on October 19th, ended three years of on-again, off-again negotiations between the two sides. The deal stops short of the so-called ‘open skies’ agreements that the US has signed with dozens of other countries in the last decade. But it gives airlines from the US and Hong Kong direct rights to serve any city in the other’s territory, allows carriers to sell seats on partners’ flights, awards ‘beyond rights’ to third countries and substantially improves linkages for all-cargo airlines.

***
Hong Kong/UK air deal may boost competition
By KEVIN DONE IN LONDON AND ANGELA MACKAY IN HONG KONG.
Financial Times
27 November 2003

The complex business of negotiating international air traffic rights is being transferred from individual member states to the Commission. Many of the procedures have not yet been put in place, however, and there was confusion on Thursday in both London and Brussels about how long the process could take and how the Commission would react to a deal negotiated by the UK, which includes clauses discriminating against other EU carriers and are technically illegal. The deal also faces opposition from some other UK carriers, led by BMI British Midland and British Airways.

BMI, controlled by Sir Michael Bishop, has been trying for several years without success to break into the protected market between Heathrow and the US and has lobbied hard against a UK government deal, which will allow another foreign carrier, Cathay Pacific, rather than a UK airline into the transatlantic market.

Tim Bye, BMI legal director, said: "We are extremely disappointed.

"We remain totally frustrated at not being able to fly from our home base at Heathrow to the US, when foreign carriers are granted these rights."

Virgin plans to introduce daily flights next summer from London to Sydney via Hong Kong, while Cathay Pacific would have the right to fly from Hong Kong to New York via London. British Airways, a dominant force on both the North Atlantic routes from London and the so-called kangaroo routes from London to Australia in a joint venture with Qantas, the Australian flag-carrier, will bear the brunt of the increased competition.

***

Landmark UK air deal agreed
Keith Wallis.
28 November 2003
The Standard

Hong Kong and Britain have agreed to end all restrictions on passenger and cargo services between the two destinations in the most liberal air services agreement ever signed by the SAR.

The deal means Cathay and Hong Kong Dragon Airlines (Dragonair), Virgin Atlantic and British Airways can operate an unlimited number of flights between London, Manchester and Hong Kong.

It also gives Cathay Pacific the rights to launch transatlantic services between London and New York, while allowing Virgin Atlantic to fly between Hong Kong and Sydney.

The pact also grants Hong Kong and British airlines codeshare rights that could see British Airways codesharing on Cathay flights to Asia and elsewhere. It would also allow Virgin to codeshare with Dragonair once Hong Kong's No 2 airline secures rights to Sydney. Virgin has an interlining agreement with Dragonair.

Cathay and Dragonair could also codeshare with European or US airlines so long as there were reciprocal agreements with these third countries.

"For the first time, Hong Kong and the UK have liberalised codeshare arrangements so Hong Kong carriers can codeshare beyond London, and UK airlines can codeshare beyond Hong Kong," Grant said.

Virgin Group chairman Richard Branson said: "Virgin Atlantic has long wished to operate to Australia and today's deal between Hong Kong and the UK means our ambition will soon be a reality."

***

Hong Kong has signed agreements with Australia, Austria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Belgium, Brazil, Brunei, Cambodia, Canada, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Israel, Italy, Japan, Jordan, Kenya, Kuwait, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Mauritius, Mongolia, Myanmar, Nepal, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Pakistan, Papua New Guinea, the Philippines, South Korea, Oman, Qatar, Russia, Singapore, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Sweden, Switzerland, Thailand, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, the UK, the US and Vietnam.

Cathay Pacific will be one of very few non-native airlines that will be able to fly the lucrative New York - London route. Other airlines will obviously look at that huge concession with jealousy. These agreements might just bring the first A380 to Hong Kong by Virgin.
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Last edited by hkskyline; January 22nd, 2005 at 08:12 AM.
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Old January 22nd, 2005, 08:50 AM   #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline
The 2002 air services agreement between Hong Kong and the United States includes a codeshare deal between Cathay Pacific Airways and American Airlines, as well as extra cargo and passenger flights. The deal will increase the number of "fifth freedom" cargo flights from eight to 58 per week for both countries, while US and Hong Kong carriers will be allowed to make 56 passenger flights per week, up from 28.

The fifth freedom flights - which allow carriers to pick up cargo and passengers in Hong Kong and the US and continue to a third destination - will be phased in over two or three years, reported Reuters. This means that Cathay can pick up passengers in New York and fly them out to a third destination, namely London, which is why an agreement with the British was so crucial for all this to work.

Here are a few articles discussing the issue :

Hong Kong industry: A new aviation pact
From the Economist Intelligence Unit


The new bilateral aviation agreement between the US and Hong Kong significantly liberalises air transport between the two sides and should lead to a wider and more efficient choice of passenger and all-cargo services. Although the benefits of the deal are tilted towards US airlines--a predictable outcome in light of US negotiating muscle--the deal will also help to deepen and expand Hong Kong’s role as a regional aviation hub, and should boost traffic at the territory’s new and under-utilised Chek Lap Kok airport.

The agreement, signed on October 19th, ended three years of on-again, off-again negotiations between the two sides. The deal stops short of the so-called ‘open skies’ agreements that the US has signed with dozens of other countries in the last decade. But it gives airlines from the US and Hong Kong direct rights to serve any city in the other’s territory, allows carriers to sell seats on partners’ flights, awards ‘beyond rights’ to third countries and substantially improves linkages for all-cargo airlines.
Before I give you a comprehensive reply, I suppose I have to point out your biggest mistakes here.

Firstly, look at the above closely. Do diffrentiate between cargo and passenger agreements, because the October 19th pact gives more flights per week between the Hong Kong and the United States for both passenger and cargo flights, but it only gives fifth freedom rights for all-cargo flights, and not for all passenger flights.

In this regard, Cathay Pacific has NO right to fly any passenger out of the United States to any European destinations beyond, including to London, until further negotiations takes place.

A relevant article on the issue:

US, Hong Kong reach pact on air services

The US and Hong Kong reached a breakthrough pact on air services that creates sorely needed business opportunities for US airlines and buttresses Hong Kong's position as the busiest air-freight hub in Asia.
After three years of difficult talks, government negotiators from both sides announced an agreement here Saturday that sharply expands US carriers' access to Hong Kong as a regional base for cargo and passenger flights, and opens up new US destinations for Hong Kong's three carriers.

It also creates a lucrative "code sharing" agreement between AMR Corp.'s American Airlines and Hong Kong's largest carrier, Cathay Pacific Airways, that will allow the airlines to sell seats on each other’s flights. American Airlines currently lacks service to Hong Kong, and industry watchers said the arrangement would provide fresh revenue at a time when it and other US carriers are creaking under the weight of losses stemming from the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks last year.

Travelers and shippers can expect to gain from the new pact, industry insiders said, as the new competition brings lower fares and less-costly cargo rates.

Besides the code-sharing arrangement, analysts said the most significant portion of the pact concerns new rights allowing airlines from each side to fly to third countries after stopping in the US or Hong Kong. US carriers, for example, can make more money when they pick up passengers or cargo in Hong Kong and then fly on to a third country than when they return directly home. But until now Hong Kong has tightly restricted the number of such US flights, and the US has imposed similar restrictions on Hong Kong carriers. Under the agreement, each side would expand the number of such flights to 64 from eight cargo flights a week, and to 56 from 28 passenger flights a week, said Daisy Lo, a Hong Kong government spokeswoman.

Cathay Pacific executives, however, complained that the agreement contains US restrictions on third countries to which Cathay planes will be allowed to fly, skewing the pact in favor of the US carriers. While Cathay will be competing with the US carriers on its bread-and-butter routes in Asia under the new agreement, Cathay planes won’t be allowed to challenge US carriers on many routes to Europe, for example, said company spokeswoman Lisa Wong. "We are disappointed with the US protectionism, which denies Hong Kong carriers equivalent commercial opportunities," she said.

Cathay's complaints notwithstanding, the agreement is an overall plus for Hong Kong. The city’s four-year-old Chek Lap Kok airport - already the world’s third-busiest for cargo after Memphis, Tennessee, and Los Angeles, California - still has loads of excess capacity. Analysts say the relatively liberal terms of the new air-services pact will make Hong Kong a more attractive hub than regional rivals such as Narita in Japan or the major new airport being built in China’s southern city of Guangzhou.

"US airlines might now look at routing, say, their Thailand traffic through Hong Kong instead of Japan," said Tony Concil, regional communications director for the International Air Transport Association. Increased volume in passengers and cargo would set off an economic ripple, creating business for airport catering services, hotels, and logistics and trade companies. Those effects appear to explain why Hong Kong officials were willing to cede ground on issues over which Cathay wanted to keep negotiating.

"The overall interest of Hong Kong may not be identical to that of a particular company," said Sandra Lee, a senior official with Hong Kong’s Economic Development and Labor Bureau, which participated in the negotiations. “This is clearly important if Hong Kong is to strengthen its status as an aviation and logistics hub,” she said.

While some clauses take immediate effect, others, such as the increase in flights allowed to travel on to third countries will be phased in over two to three years, according to a US Department of Transportation statement.

More important, the financial straits of many US airlines will make it difficult for them to take advantage of the new pact. "It’s fairly unlikely" that US airlines will commit airplanes to new routes immediately, said Peter Harbison, head of the Center for Asia Pacific Aviation, an aviation consulting company in Sydney. Companies such as UAL Corp.'s United Airlines, which is considering seeking bankruptcy-law protection, "don’t have the luxury of thinking about expansion," said Harbison. (Dow Jones from tdctrade.com)
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Old January 22nd, 2005, 08:59 AM   #277
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The above piece was written before the European air services pact was signed. In fact, the UK agreement came in 2003 while the US agreement was signed in 2002, so naturally at that time Cathay would not be able to fly the transatlantic route. That's why the transatlantic route issue came up when the British deal was reached. Otherwise BMI and Singapore Airlines would not have voiced opposition to the deal if the New York - London route was not on the table. In fact, both airlines specifically referred to Cathay's approval to fly that transatlantic route in their petitions.

Analyze the sentence structure :
But it gives airlines from the US and Hong Kong direct rights to serve any city in the other’s territory, allows carriers to sell seats on partners’ flights, awards ‘beyond rights’ to third countries and substantially improves linkages for all-cargo airlines

The fifth freedom rights that allow beyond rights to third countries involve passenger services. The cargo implications are linked with a conjunction so that is separate.

In fact, Cathay's granting of the New York - London route is consistently talked about in the news media covering the UK-HK bilateral air services agreement, and is consistently being the source of complaints by rival airlines. If it is not the issue, why is there such a big reaction?
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Old January 22nd, 2005, 09:03 AM   #278
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Here is yet another article from the Financial Times documenting Cathay's success in securing the New York - London route :

Air deal could benefit Virgin and Cathay
By KEVIN DONE
26 November 2003
Financial Times

The UK and Hong Kong governments are hoping to achieve a breakthrough in talks today on a significant liberalisation of air services that would lead to increased competition on routes from the UK to both Australia and the US.

Virgin Atlantic, the British long-haul airline, is seeking so-called fifth freedom rights to allow it fly to Australia via Hong Kong with the right to carry local passengers between Hong Kong and Australia.

The opening of a service from London to Sydney has been a long-held ambition of Sir Richard Branson, Virgin chairman, in his efforts to create more competition against the joint venture of British Airways and Australia's Qantas that currently dominates the route.

He said yesterday he hoped to be able to commence services to Australia via Hong Kong, an existing Virgin destination, from next summer.

In return Hong Kong is seeking similar fifth freedom rights for Cathay Pacific, its de facto flag carrier, to fly to the US via London's Heathrow airport.

The British government is understood to have backed the deal, but it is expected to run into severe opposition from some other carriers, most significantly BMI British Midland and Singapore Airlines, which have been campaigning in vain for several years to fly on the lucrative transatlantic routes from Heathrow to the US.

Under the terms of the current bilateral air services agreement between the UK and the US, only four airlines, British Airways and Virgin Atlantic from the UK and American Airlines and United Airlines from the US, are allowed to fly direct services between the US and Heathrow, the main transatlantic gateway for the US in Europe.

At the same time only three airlines - Air India, Kuwait Airways and Air New Zealand - have the fifth freedom rights sought by Cathay Pacific to pick up passengers in London for travel to the US.

The US is willing to accept flights by Cathay, while it is blocking BMI in the absence of a much wider so-called "open skies" deal with the UK or between the European Union and the US.
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Old January 22nd, 2005, 09:07 AM   #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline
Hong Kong has signed agreements with Australia, Austria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Belgium, Brazil, Brunei, Cambodia, Canada, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Israel, Italy, Japan, Jordan, Kenya, Kuwait, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Mauritius, Mongolia, Myanmar, Nepal, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Pakistan, Papua New Guinea, the Philippines, South Korea, Oman, Qatar, Russia, Singapore, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Sweden, Switzerland, Thailand, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, the UK, the US and Vietnam.

Cathay Pacific will be one of very few non-native airlines that will be able to fly the lucrative New York - London route. Other airlines will obviously look at that huge concession with jealousy. These agreements might just bring the first A380 to Hong Kong by Virgin.
Giving us a listing of aviation agreements means nothing, when just about any other country on Earth have a similarly impessive list to boast of. Singapore, for example, has air services agreements with more than 90 countries around the world, compared to only 54 for Hong Kong listed above. Meanwhile, fully liberal aviation pacts seems to elude HK no thanks to its protectionist policies. Compare that to the United States, which has, at the end of 2004, a total of 65 open-skies policies. The US-India deal is its 66th deal. It has signed multi-lateral agreements with seven nations, of which Singapore is one of them.

Hence, the UK is probably quite smart in giving Cathay access to something which they probably wont be able to use at all, until the US manages to force Hong Kong into an open skies pact, for example, something which HK has stalled again in the past years. Perhaps they will have to relook at their protectionist stance now.

I suppose other airlines dont have much to feel jealous over, if Cathay cant even utilise its rights, and even then, can only offer just one flight per day?
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Old January 22nd, 2005, 09:11 AM   #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline
At the same time only three airlines - Air India, Kuwait Airways and Air New Zealand - have the fifth freedom rights sought by Cathay Pacific to pick up passengers in London for travel to the US.

The US is willing to accept flights by Cathay, while it is blocking BMI in the absence of a much wider so-called "open skies" deal with the UK or between the European Union and the US.
Look at the above list of airlines, plus that of Cathay. How many of them are considered serious threats to existing carriers in flying the trans atlantic route?

And meanwhile, how many of them have actually exercised their rights till today?
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