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Old December 7th, 2012, 11:09 AM   #4341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
No, HX tried all-J for their London route and it flopped. In fact, they axed the route altogether recently. The plane has gone to its parent, Hainan Airlines.
Didn't HX lease 2 x A330s to a UK charter carrier?!?!?
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Old December 7th, 2012, 11:21 AM   #4342
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Originally Posted by EK413 View Post
Didn't HX lease 2 x A330s to a UK charter carrier?!?!?
As reported on 12 November : http://airlineroute.net/2012/11/12/hu-pekszx-dec12/
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Old December 7th, 2012, 06:55 PM   #4343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
No, HX tried all-J for their London route and it flopped. In fact, they axed the route altogether recently. The plane has gone to its parent, Hainan Airlines.
I actually remember that experiment as Hong Kong to London Gatwick, in which it only was operational for just a few months. I think that an all-C configuration may not necessarily work because of the high overhead needed to keep the aircraft going, as well as fluctuating passenger demand, especially in today's volatile economy.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 08:24 PM   #4344
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Capacity is not the sole distinctive factor between aircraft, at least not among the industry knowers. A bigger plane can be a competitor to a smaller plane.
A bigger plane can be a competitor to a smaller plane ...yes, but the key question here is .... how often a bigger plane can be a real competitor to a smaller plane? when does it really happen? on a 5% of the cases?

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Airlines have a lot of options to satisfy their long-haul needs. Some opt for high-capacity, such as the 747 and the A380 for high-traffic routes, or routes where slots are hard to come by (London). Some opt for more frequency, and use smaller twin-engined aircraft to save some fuel and run a few more flights.
That statement is just valid -and only occasionally- for the World's leading airlines like DL, LH, EK, SQ, KE, etc, etc ...but for smaller carriers like SK or UX neither a B-747 nor an A-380 it's not an option and it will never be an option to consider. VLA's segment is not made for medium-small airlines size.

The A380 market has nothing to do with the B787 market. Simply, they are different sizes for different markets. Exactly the same happen in the late 1980's and the 1990's with the 747's and 767's.

If you dare to say that "The 787 and even the A350 are definitely in the same class of plane as the A380" ...why not to say that "The 787 is in the same class of plane as the A319LR"?? both 787 and 319LR are twins with a great range, right?

By the way, you're contradicting yourself when saying:

Quote:
Clearly, in this economic environment, filling up seats is hard.
...and then...

Quote:
You need to consider a lot more about the aviation industry than simply how many bodies sit in an aircraft.
If filling up seats is hard like you correctly say, consider "how many bodies sit in an aircraft" is not a trivial issue, is it?
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Old December 7th, 2012, 09:31 PM   #4345
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I think I'll sum up the A380 versus the other long-range aircraft in a few statements:

- The A380 is specifically designed to be a flagship aircraft for the largest airlines in the world that want to provide the utmost service. It can carry up to 600 people in a single flight, bigger than the B747, and it can fly as far as a B747 with a larger capacity.

- The B747, in service for over 40 years, has been an exceptional aircraft, with several evolutions over time. While it may not carry as many passengers as the A380, its unique "bump" design is a trademark of its longevity that many carriers still operate this aircraft over time. And with the B747-8I, it is surely a competition for customers for both Airbus and Boeing.

- The B787, smaller in size than both the B747 and A380, may be considered a small aircraft for many people, but don't be fooled: its twin engines and materials used can carry a limited number of passengers (around 200 to 250) about the same distance as the B747 or A380, if not longer. It is a more environmentally-efficient aircraft to use since it uses alternative materials for the airframe rather than aluminum, and a twin-engine design (similar to the B767 and B777) allows for less fuel consumption, thus lessening the carbon impact in the atmosphere.

I think the A380 though has set a new standard, not only on how many passengers can be carried, but also on the amenities and features an aircraft can give to its airlines. I'm very happy to see a massive aircraft (and quiet engines too!) fly over San Francisco everyday as the A380 -- it's just a matter of time when this aircraft type will be as familiar as the B747.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 04:42 AM   #4346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrex View Post
A bigger plane can be a competitor to a smaller plane ...yes, but the key question here is .... how often a bigger plane can be a real competitor to a smaller plane? when does it really happen? on a 5% of the cases?
You can see the A380 co-exist with its Boeing and Airbus long-haul counterparts on numerous routes. Perhaps you can provide examples where the A380 is the sole type of aircraft used on long-haul?

I can think of a few right away :
KE - HKG-ICN has multiple types of aircraft in use, including the A380
SQ - HKG-SIN same story
TG - HKG-BKK same story
QF - HKG-SYD same story
EK - HKG-BKK same story

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrex View Post
That statement is just valid -and only occasionally- for the World's leading airlines like DL, LH, EK, SQ, KE, etc, etc ...but for smaller carriers like SK or UX neither a B-747 nor an A-380 it's not an option and it will never be an option to consider. VLA's segment is not made for medium-small airlines size.
That's why smaller carriers with limited patronage will choose other long-haul aircraft such as the 777 and the A330/A340. There are also a few more choices. The A380 and B787 use composite materials to save operational costs, giving them an advantage over the other types of aircraft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrex View Post
The A380 market has nothing to do with the B787 market. Simply, they are different sizes for different markets. Exactly the same happen in the late 1980's and the 1990's with the 747's and 767's.
Can you explain why airlines are buying both types of aircraft to serve their long-haul markets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrex View Post
If you dare to say that "The 787 and even the A350 are definitely in the same class of plane as the A380" ...why not to say that "The 787 is in the same class of plane as the A319LR"?? both 787 and 319LR are twins with a great range, right?
A319LR still doesn't have the same range as the 777/330/340/787/380. They will not effectively compete with its long-haul twin-engined and 4-engined counterparts.

Filling up seats is hard, which is why airlines need to seriously consider their traffic flow before paying up for the A380. The 787 is far more flexible with fewer seats, similar to a pre-existing 777/330/340, so they don't need to embark on a new revenue model, and can easily transfer jets to other routes. I suspect that's why airlines are still suspicious about the A380 and still standing on the sidelines.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 02:31 PM   #4347
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Starting today, Emirates operates its flights to heathrow by A380 only (5 flights a day).
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Old December 10th, 2012, 03:45 PM   #4348
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Old December 10th, 2012, 06:21 PM   #4349
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Originally Posted by Space Invader View Post
Starting today, Emirates operates its flights to heathrow by A380 only (5 flights a day).
son of a ....gun. 5 flights a day on a 380 :O. talk about a busy route.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 06:42 PM   #4350
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Now let's bet when one of the 3 B777 flights to London Gatwick will be operated by A380...
I'd say september 2013.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 06:44 PM   #4351
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so in all they (Emirates) have 8 flights a day to Dubai? Thats a lot of flights. Anyways can Gatwick handle an A380?
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Old December 10th, 2012, 06:56 PM   #4352
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Yes, 8 flights indeed.
And yes it can, Emirates A380 landed this summer for a special event but a proper A380 terminal is under construction, It will be done next summer.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 08:42 PM   #4353
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Gatwick is already a future EK destination, just not sure when the first airframe will roll in, but can see all three slots being the big bird.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 10:57 PM   #4354
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San Francisco is also a future A380 destination for EK. It's just that a modified air frame that could fly longer distances that would be needed to make the flight.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 12:49 AM   #4355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
...
Again, you are missing the point. The A380 is specifically aimed at airlines who can not only fill the seats but who might be slot restricted at certain airports, having 4 flights a day instead of 2 might not be possible.

For the last time, the 787 and the A380 are not competitors. They are aimed at two totally different markets. Yes they are both long range, long haul jets, but thats the only similarity.
Not even Boeing claims the A380 competes with the 787.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 01:06 AM   #4356
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San Francisco is also a future A380 destination for EK. It's just that a modified air frame that could fly longer distances that would be needed to make the flight.
am pretty much ignorant about what you wrote. what exactly do you mean by a modified airframe?
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Old December 11th, 2012, 01:10 AM   #4357
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A higher gross weight version and/or lower seating density? Maybe, additional crew rest areas, for example.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 03:07 AM   #4358
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am pretty much ignorant about what you wrote. what exactly do you mean by a modified airframe?
Well, EK has ordered additional A380 that can fly nearly the same distance as a B77W, in which, in my best guess, can be achieved by either lowering the seating capacity or improving the engine used for the aircraft. It's like making another variant for the same aircraft.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 04:32 AM   #4359
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Originally Posted by future.architect View Post
Again, you are missing the point. The A380 is specifically aimed at airlines who can not only fill the seats but who might be slot restricted at certain airports, having 4 flights a day instead of 2 might not be possible.

For the last time, the 787 and the A380 are not competitors. They are aimed at two totally different markets. Yes they are both long range, long haul jets, but thats the only similarity.
Not even Boeing claims the A380 competes with the 787.
Not that I don't agree with your first point, but the A380 and 787 are competitors in a sense of ideology. The A380 was developed based on the theory of passengers being funnelled into an airline hub to get to ones' destination, while the 787 was developed based on the idea of increasing smaller secondary hubs. So while yes the A380 and 787 have different markets in a sense, these ideologies are technically in competition with one another.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 04:55 AM   #4360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by future.architect View Post
Again, you are missing the point. The A380 is specifically aimed at airlines who can not only fill the seats but who might be slot restricted at certain airports, having 4 flights a day instead of 2 might not be possible.

For the last time, the 787 and the A380 are not competitors. They are aimed at two totally different markets. Yes they are both long range, long haul jets, but thats the only similarity.
Not even Boeing claims the A380 competes with the 787.
The contradiction is at many airports where there are slot restrictions, business passengers prefer high frequency to justify paying extraordinary J and F fares. That's why we see Emirates ramp up both capacity and frequency for London. The contradiction also manifests itself on the popular New York - London route, where we don't see US carriers buy and deploy an A380.

We also see the A380 fly into airports that don't have this slot problem, such as SYD, HKG, ICN, SIN, and the like. It is also very much possible to use a 787, 777, A330, or A340 on these routes. Airlines then decide how many seats they can fill up and whether it's economical to use a big or small jet.
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