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Old November 22nd, 2015, 09:41 AM   #7781
mcarling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ESPImperium View Post
Until then, the Hub/Spoke design will carry on for decades to come, and is the total bain of my life as i have to take at least 4 flights to wherever i wish to go, or as i have worked out for a potential trip next year, one way was as many as 4 flights there and 4 flights back.
The point of fragmenting markets with smaller aircraft that can fly longer distances (such as the 767 and A330 did with the trans-Atlantic market and the 787 is now doing with the trans-Pacific market) is not that one can fly nonstop between cities that are both small and distant but rather that one can fly to more places from each hub and therefore fewer hub-to-hub flights are needed. Someday your four flight route might become a three flight route. The A380 was a bet that the fragmentation of markets had come to an end. Airbus lost that bet and the A380 program has lost more money than any other program in commercial aerospace history. Fortunately, the A330neo and the A350 are very capable aircraft that will continue to fragment markets.

Last edited by mcarling; November 24th, 2015 at 05:09 AM. Reason: Specified _commercial_ aerospace history since there is no way to know how much government programs lose.
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Old November 22nd, 2015, 07:18 PM   #7782
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Emirates A380 by Airbus Group, on Flickr



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Old November 22nd, 2015, 08:21 PM   #7783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ESPImperium View Post
However for those in the UK, you need to travel to their major Hub in LHR in order to travel to those destinations. Or if you wish to travel from Mumbai to Leeds, Manchester, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen or next year Inverness, you need to travel via LHR. So you need to travel via a Hub with a 787 leg.

Yes, the 787 is a good aircraft for this non hub/spoke design. However, I think that all 'Flag Carriers' like BA should be diversified to the top 5 Airports in the country with more 787s flying direct routes that those airports do not connect to. So for BA id have 12 based aircraft at GLA & EDI, 20 at MAN, 40 at LGW and the rest of the fleet to LHR.

Until then, the Hub/Spoke design will carry on for decades to come, and is the total bain of my life as i have to take at least 4 flights to wherever i wish to go, or as i have worked out for a potential trip next year, one way was as many as 4 flights there and 4 flights back.

However, i do realise that carriers need to run a business and also they need to support the hub they fly through as thats a business as well and people need jobs and companies need my money.
BA uses the 787s for Houston, Austin, San Diego, Oakland, and I am sure a few other places.

I think flying directly to Heathrow / london is why people will fly that flight. They dont want to fly to an airport thats not as attractive of a flight to fly.
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Old November 22nd, 2015, 10:51 PM   #7784
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
The point of fragmenting markets with smaller aircraft that can fly longer distances (such as the 767 and A330 did with the trans-Atlantic market and the 787 is now doing with the trans-Pacific market) is not that one can fly nonstop between cities that are both small and distant but rather that one can fly to more places from each hub and therefore fewer hub-to-hub flights are needed. Someday your four flight route might become a three flight route. The A380 was a bet that the fragmentation of markets had come to an end. Airbus lost that bet and the A380 program has lost more money than any other program in aerospace history. Fortunately, the A330neo and the A350 are very capable aircraft that will continue to fragment markets.
A380 changed the development cycles in Airbus, introduced many technologies and other strategies. That was needed anyway and better it happened on A380 than A350 being delayed 5 years.

Now Airbus has A380 out and A350 is out only a few years behind 787, while they are working on other NEO versions at same time.
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Old November 24th, 2015, 01:48 AM   #7785
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Quote:
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Airbus lost that bet and the A380 program has lost more money than any other program in aerospace history. Fortunately, the A330neo and the A350 are very capable aircraft that will continue to fragment markets.
Well in fairness the F-35 is already $200bn over budget and is keeping going onwards and upwards from there.

And Concorde was a disaster in Civil Aviation terms and as good as bankrupted the participating companies so they could no longer develop new airliners....so off they went and founded Airbus so they did ( plus a few new members).

Compared to Concorde and the F-35 the A380 is small beer, honestly.
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Old November 24th, 2015, 05:05 AM   #7786
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Well in fairness the F-35 is already $200bn over budget and is keeping going onwards and upwards from there.

And Concorde was a disaster in Civil Aviation terms and as good as bankrupted the participating companies so they could no longer develop new airliners....so off they went and founded Airbus so they did ( plus a few new members).

Compared to Concorde and the F-35 the A380 is small beer, honestly.
I meant "commercial aerospace history". Sorry. Mea culpa. Yes, the F35 has cost over $200 billion, but there are arguments about the value. My own opinion is that the F35 is a boondoggle, but that is not an established fact.

I think you'll find the A380 has lost Airbus (about 20-25 billion euro, so far) at least double what the Concorde lost Aérospatiale and BAC (about 1.3 billion pounds, which is probably less than 10 billion euro after adjusting for inflation).
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Old November 25th, 2015, 08:03 AM   #7787
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It looks as if Airbus is about to face a wave of further order cancellations for the A380, shrinking its already underwhelming order list even further -here are some excerpts:

Quote:
After carefully analyzing the order book it can be concluded that a lot of orders are still listed, while airlines are looking for a way out of the deal. Airbus probably tries to keep the orders in the books to make the order book look robust, scratching these orders would show weakness and would show that demand for the Airbus A380 is low.
Quote:
Airbus claimed that it is currently talking with airlines to buy the Airbus A380. Potential customers probably are Saudi and Royal Air Maroc, both airlines are looking for a replacement for their Boeing (BA) 747-400 and could deploy the superjumbo during the Hajj pilgrimage. With these 2 new potential customers Airbus could add 30 units to the order book, which would be most welcome. However, it also shows the niche market for the A380.
Quote:
In the worst case scenario about 50 orders will be scratched from A380 backlog, while in the best case scenario it can sell 30 aircraft on the short term. All with all, for the short and long term Airbus is positioned poorly with its order backlog as well as with its entire superjumbo concept.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/3707...-than-it-seems
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Old November 25th, 2015, 08:11 AM   #7788
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Airbus A380 is not that bad. Although it's not as successful as expected, at least it is not a waste.
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Old November 25th, 2015, 03:42 PM   #7789
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Airbus A380 is not that bad. Although it's not as successful as expected, at least it is not a waste.
If you mean that the A380 is not as bad as the F35, then I agree.
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Old November 25th, 2015, 11:09 PM   #7790
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I agree
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Old November 26th, 2015, 04:21 AM   #7791
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a380 & a400 military same cockpit rite?
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Old November 26th, 2015, 08:39 AM   #7792
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F-35 is a total waste, and I'm doubtful it would be a combat capable aircraft when compared to the likes of F-22, or even F-16 and F-15!

A380 on the other hand have scored some degree of commercial success. It has performed as what the engineers and airlines expected.

The downside of A380 is that it was born at the time when smaller airplanes like Boeing 777 or even Boeing 787 are capable to fly economically on a long haul distance. A feat that was only achievable during the heyday of Boeing 747 between 1970s until 1990s.
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Old November 26th, 2015, 08:45 AM   #7793
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Quote:
Originally Posted by traindie View Post
a380 & a400 military same cockpit rite?
They are similar (as all newer generation Airbus widebody cockpit design goes), however differences include:

- Electronic Flight Bag screens located behind the sidesticks on A380, not on A400M;
- On A400M, both ECAM screens located on main panel in front of pilots in arrangement of six screens, whereas A380 has one ECAM screen located on centre pedestal between MCDU screens.
- Overhead panel differences, external light and engine start switches located on a new extension from the A400M's overhead panel, more in line with pilots' sightline (unlike Airbus' civil cockpit designs).
- The blue-grey cockpit colour of civil cockpits has been exchanged for black and grey.
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Old November 27th, 2015, 10:12 AM   #7794
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Airbus Pursues Saudia A380 Order With Super-Dense 615 Seater

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...nse-615-seater
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Old November 27th, 2015, 10:46 PM   #7795
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I am really confused by this article on Bloomberg!!!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...nse-615-seater

Quote:
Airbus sales chief John Leahy said this month at the Dubai Air Show that the company is in negotiations to sell as many as 32 A380s to two airlines, with one looking at as many as 20 aircraft and the other 10 to 12. The number of planes involved and the fact that they’d be new would appear to rule out Saudia as of the potential buyers. Leahy said the orders might be secured this year, though deals could equally come in 2016.

So Saudia are taking old aircraft and retrofitting them to the 2 class layout that EK are now taking delivery of (with 615 seats) by ripping out first class and some of the business class and replacing them with economy.

Or else they are new Amadeo planes on lease or old planes (ex Emirates or Singapore), on lease and obviously with some work done like ripping out first class.

Last edited by sponge_bob; November 27th, 2015 at 11:16 PM.
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Old November 27th, 2015, 11:32 PM   #7796
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I am really confused by this article on Bloomberg!!!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...nse-615-seater




So Saudia are taking old aircraft and retrofitting them to the 2 class layout that EK are now taking delivery of (with 615 seats) by ripping out first class and some of the business class and replacing them with economy.

Or else they are new Amadeo planes on lease or old planes (ex Emirates or Singapore), on lease and obviously with some work done like ripping out first class.
Have you tried contacting the authors of this article for clarification? I know one of them has a Twitter account.
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Old November 27th, 2015, 11:46 PM   #7797
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I'll go easy on them, they might have had a deadline after a pint at lunchtime.
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Old November 27th, 2015, 11:47 PM   #7798
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The Bloomberg article looks like a rather drastically abridged version of this German article.

http://www.aero.de/news-22975/Airbus...ration-an.html

Airbus is offering Saudi the same 2 Class high density lay-out which Emirates recently introduced. That's pretty much all what is said about a possible Saudi order. It doesn't say anything specific about the status or the details of this prospective order.

The 2nd part, where they talk with Amedeo makes it confusing. The German article links the 1st part about Airbus offering to the 2nd part about Amedeo wanting to create a 2nd hand market for the A380 in a creative way. They say that Saudi has remained very tight lipped about a possible order, not saying too much just that they are evaluating the A380 within their fleetplan. This means that they also haven't said anything about if they are open to take 2nd hand planes.

And then the article continues with the very desperate mr. Lapidus of Amedeo, trying very hard to create a market for "their" A380s after Emirates retire them early. Yes, the pilgrimage market to Mecca is a likely market for high density A380. But for now there's no connection between the possible Saudia order and Amedeo trying to push the A380 in this specific market segment. Mr. Lapidus is very opportunistic, sticking his nose anywhere there could be a potential A380 order. For example, at the time Delta was deciding between a Airbus and Boeing order he came along with a story that he was certain that Delta would go for the A380. Delta went with Airbus went with Airbus, but just for the A330 and A350. It's not that strange that when Airbus now is talking with Saudi he also jumps in and talks about the benefits of the A380 in specific market. But as I said, there's nothing to suggest that mr. Lapidus has anything to with this prospective order.
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Old November 28th, 2015, 06:50 AM   #7799
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China, HongKong, places-yucun-had-been-2014-12.jpg by Yucun Tang, on Flickr



China, HongKong, places-yucun-had-been-2014-11.jpg by Yucun Tang, on Flickr



Emirates A6-EDG 29-11-2015 by Enda Burke Photography, on Flickr



T R E N T - X W B 9 7 by Quentin, on Flickr



EK 241 arriving from Dubai direct by brent jackson, on Flickr
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Old December 3rd, 2015, 09:34 PM   #7800
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EK have recieved their 70th A380 registration number A6-EOR.
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