daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Forums > Stadiums and Sport Arenas

Stadiums and Sport Arenas » Completed | Under Construction | Proposed | Demolished



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old April 3rd, 2009, 09:52 PM   #21
K-Lex
Moderator
 
K-Lex's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Kazan
Posts: 11,227

Stadium design questions / debate / ideas

Hi to everyone! I need help in recognizing 3 stadiums. The city where I live wants to erect new football stadium (45-50 000 seats). Maybe it would be build on the basis of one of the projects of 3 next stadiums, that are represented on the picture which you can see here:





Not long time ago there was a short reporting on TV about this plans and I've made the screenshot of the booklet that was demonstrated with half an eye. Does anybody know or recognize at least one of the stadiums? Help me to find them, please. Maybe logos of some companies (I think they designed stads) in the top of the booklet will help you. Thanks!

Last edited by K-Lex; July 28th, 2009 at 04:55 PM.
K-Lex no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old April 3rd, 2009, 11:02 PM   #22
canarywondergod
Registered User
 
canarywondergod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Camberley/ Norwich/ Birmingham
Posts: 713
Likes (Received): 83

well one is the aviva stadium in dublin (top left) and the bottom one looks like the new stadium they are building in Kazakhstan
canarywondergod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 3rd, 2009, 11:29 PM   #23
K-Lex
Moderator
 
K-Lex's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Kazan
Posts: 11,227

Thank you for Aviva and the bottom one! Are you sure, that the right one is from Kazakhstan too?
K-Lex no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 4th, 2009, 01:00 AM   #24
NeilF
Reasons To Be Cheerful
 
NeilF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Edinburgh / Belfast
Posts: 552
Likes (Received): 3

I'm pretty sure the bottom one isn't the new stadium in Kazakhstan.

The one on the right looks shockingly like the (now-abandoned) proposal for The Maze stadium, near Lisburn, in Northern Ireland. The renders were drawn up by HOK Sport, so there's a chance:

__________________
In economics, hope and faith coexist with great scientific pretension and also a deep desire for respectability.
NeilF no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 4th, 2009, 01:55 AM   #25
K-Lex
Moderator
 
K-Lex's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Kazan
Posts: 11,227

Thank you! It seems that it is that very project. Now I have to dot one's "i's" concerning the bottom stadium. Any ideas, except Kazakhstan?
K-Lex no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 4th, 2009, 05:02 AM   #26
danVan
Registered User
 
danVan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 494
Likes (Received): 180

I might be worng, but i think the caption in the bottom image says Astana Kazakhstan
danVan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 4th, 2009, 08:43 AM   #27
Chimaera
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bruges
Posts: 2,709
Likes (Received): 174

Quote:
Originally Posted by danVan View Post
I might be worng, but i think the caption in the bottom image says Astana Kazakhstan
That was also my first impression: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=518006
__________________
My websites:
Belstadions Belgian stadiums and arenas
Arch4MC Sketchup designs
Chimaera no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 4th, 2009, 08:47 AM   #28
pompeyfan
Registered User
 
pompeyfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Queensland
Posts: 1,410
Likes (Received): 84

Definitely the third one is Astana

__________________
Check out my latest stadium models for sketchup here

Keep up with my latest projects here
pompeyfan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 4th, 2009, 01:28 PM   #29
K-Lex
Moderator
 
K-Lex's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Kazan
Posts: 11,227

You're right! Thanks to all!
K-Lex no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 26th, 2009, 03:02 AM   #30
weava
Arch(Struct) Engineer
 
weava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Missouri/Ozarks/KC
Posts: 1,753
Likes (Received): 1963

Stadium design questions / debate / ideas

I live in the USA so I understand how our stadiums are designed but I'm curious about some things about stadiums from the rest of the world as I know very little about soccer, cricket, rugby and any other sport not popular in the USA.

1) In the USA many outdoor games are played at night which means stadiums require lighting, do most other countries play night games/day games or a mix?

2) What is the point of terracing and what is the ticket cost vs buying a seated ticket. I had never heard of terracing before I started checking out this site. In the USA some college stadiums and minor league baseball have bleachers or bleacher backs since they are cheaper but terracing just seems weird.

3) What sports can be played in what type of stadiums. I know that soccer field is slightly wider than a NFL football field but what about other sports shared stadiums. Baseball and NFL football share some stadiums in the USA but it requires movable stand sections to fit the different dimentions but that trend is going away as MLB and NFL teams have only been building sport specific stadiums recently.

4) Roofs: In the USA baseball is not played rain. NFL football is more exciting in rain/snow so the only stadiums with roofs are normally so they can host basketball/superbowls unless the enviroment is out of the norm like rainy seatlle or hot arizona. So why are roofs such a hot topic for stadiums when they are typiclly seem to not be needed?

5) Ownership: In different parts of the world who pays for the stadiums, does the local government, private company, or the home teams owners own the stadium. It is a mix in the USA but many teams force the local cities to pay for stadiums since they threaten to move to another city and the city would lose out on the taxes created by the team.
__________________
[ Bernie Sanders 2016 ] [ArtDeco = The best skyscrapers] [ American Football ]
USA + Brazil
weava no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 26th, 2009, 03:43 AM   #31
Bobby3
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 1,267
Likes (Received): 52

Quote:
Originally Posted by weava View Post
I live in the USA so I understand how our stadiums are designed but I'm curious about some things about stadiums from the rest of the world as I know very little about soccer, cricket, rugby and any other sport not popular in the USA.

1) In the USA many outdoor games are played at night which means stadiums require lighting, do most other countries play night games/day games or a mix?
Day and night.

Quote:
2) What is the point of terracing and what is the ticket cost vs buying a seated ticket. I had never heard of terracing before I started checking out this site. In the USA some college stadiums and minor league baseball have bleachers or bleacher backs since they are cheaper but terracing just seems weird.
It's cheaper to build and some people like standing for the entire match. Terraces can also hold more. The tickets are cheaper vs. seats.

Quote:
3) What sports can be played in what type of stadiums. I know that soccer field is slightly wider than a NFL football field but what about other sports shared stadiums. Baseball and NFL football share some stadiums in the USA but it requires movable stand sections to fit the different dimentions but that trend is going away as MLB and NFL teams have only been building sport specific stadiums recently.
Soccer is interesting. Clubs can play on smaller pitches, actually, and you see many shoehorned into American football stadiums here. It's perfectly legal.

International matches require a regulated sized pitch though.

Both codes of rugby occasionally use soccer stadiums.

Soccer and rugby can also be played at cricket ovals but it's awful to watch.

When Highbury (Arsenal) was standing it was the smallest pitch in the Premiership at 110 x 73 (yds), compared to the largest at the City of Manchester Stadium (Manchester City) at 116 x 77. So there's a variance.

The largest a pitch can be is 130 x 100, the smallest is 100 x 50.

Quote:
4) Roofs: In the USA baseball is not played rain. NFL football is more exciting in rain/snow so the only stadiums with roofs are normally so they can host basketball/superbowls unless the enviroment is out of the norm like rainy seatlle or hot arizona. So why are roofs such a hot topic for stadiums when they are typiclly seem to not be needed?
They keep the weather out and soccer is played in some pretty extreme conditions. The NFL plays into January but it doesn't play in February, the coldest month of the year, soccer leagues do. They also play in mid-summer in some places, so the sun is a factor.

You have to remember, Russia is a bit colder than Illinois, and Libya a bit hotter than Florida.

It's also cultural.

Quote:
5) Ownership: In different parts of the world who pays for the stadiums, does the local government, private company, or the home teams owners own the stadium. It is a mix in the USA but many teams force the local cities to pay for stadiums since they threaten to move to another city and the city would lose out on the taxes created by the team.
Depends on the country.

I personally admire when a club foots the bill, like Arsenal did, rather than taking from the tax payers because stadiums often fall on the bad side of the "risk-reward" gamble for municipalities.

Last edited by Bobby3; April 26th, 2009 at 03:53 AM.
Bobby3 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 26th, 2009, 10:23 AM   #32
Chimaera
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bruges
Posts: 2,709
Likes (Received): 174

Quote:
Originally Posted by weava View Post
I live in the USA so I understand how our stadiums are designed but I'm curious about some things about stadiums from the rest of the world as I know very little about soccer, cricket, rugby and any other sport not popular in the USA.

1) In the USA many outdoor games are played at night which means stadiums require lighting, do most other countries play night games/day games or a mix?
Morst first division football matches in Belgium are played on Saturday evening, so we definitely need lighting.

Quote:
2) What is the point of terracing and what is the ticket cost vs buying a seated ticket. I had never heard of terracing before I started checking out this site. In the USA some college stadiums and minor league baseball have bleachers or bleacher backs since they are cheaper but terracing just seems weird.
Football in Europe has always known terracing, but after the Heizel Drama in our country (Champions' Cup Final in Brussels, when riots between Juventus and Liverpool fans resulted in collapsing fences and many casualties) and maybe some other incidents the terraces were significantly reduced or totally suppressed. These last years though terracing is making a comeback (especially in Germany; in Belgium: Genk) since they are better for atmosphere and "Kop" fans usually prefer them.

Quote:
3) What sports can be played in what type of stadiums. I know that soccer field is slightly wider than a NFL football field but what about other sports shared stadiums. Baseball and NFL football share some stadiums in the USA but it requires movable stand sections to fit the different dimentions but that trend is going away as MLB and NFL teams have only been building sport specific stadiums recently.
In Belgium it's all about association football, since the late 1800's; baseball, rugby and other football codes aren't popular and therefore don't need stadiums. Quite a few football clubs play in a multifunctional stadium, usually owned by the city: football field surrounded by an athletics track. In the past some even had a cycling track, or a combination of athletics and cycling track. But when the clubs have the possibility to get rid of the track, they will do it. Our history in stadium design is similar to Britain: rectangular, often separate stands (sometimes converted from oval/U-shaped terraces) close to the pitch, and after all only one meeting needs a big athletics stadium: the Ivo Van Damme Memorial (Diamond League) draws 50,000 at the end of the summer.

Quote:
4) Roofs: In the USA baseball is not played rain. NFL football is more exciting in rain/snow so the only stadiums with roofs are normally so they can host basketball/superbowls unless the enviroment is out of the norm like rainy seatlle or hot arizona. So why are roofs such a hot topic for stadiums when they are typiclly seem to not be needed?
Belgium has very unpredictable weather (wind, rain, cold etc. and a combination). Roofs are not a luxury. A lot of stadiums don't have 100% coverage though, and contrary to The Netherlands we don't have stadiums with roofs closing over the pitch.

Quote:
5) Ownership: In different parts of the world who pays for the stadiums, does the local government, private company, or the home teams owners own the stadium. It is a mix in the USA but many teams force the local cities to pay for stadiums since they threaten to move to another city and the city would lose out on the taxes created by the team.
A few clubs in Belgium have signed stadium naming rights contracts with private companies (in basketball it's a different story: lots of new arenas were built recently and most of them have brand names). Until now no stadiums have been built with private company money (at least none that I know of). The stadiums are either built and owned by local governments, or by the club. All this will probably change in the near future, with the new stadium boom partly nourished by the prospect of hosting FIFA World Cup 2018.
__________________
My websites:
Belstadions Belgian stadiums and arenas
Arch4MC Sketchup designs

Last edited by Chimaera; April 26th, 2009 at 03:03 PM.
Chimaera no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 26th, 2009, 01:53 PM   #33
Alemanniafan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 676
Likes (Received): 20

Quote:
Originally Posted by weava View Post
1) In the USA many outdoor games are played at night which means stadiums require lighting, do most other countries play night games/day games or a mix?
With soccer in germany it's a mix and also depends on the league, first Bundesliga is mostly on saturday afternoons, some matches on friday evening. Second Bundesliga plays mostly on sunday afternoons, some matches Friday evening and one match monday evening. So we have both matches during daytime and matches in the evnenings, especially in winter when it allready gets dark around 5pm. The fans here usualy prefer the atmosphere in evening matches, but for away fans the afternoon times on the weekends are usually better, because you can drive there and back in one day, even if the distances are a bit further.

Quote:
Originally Posted by weava View Post
2) What is the point of terracing and what is the ticket cost vs buying a seated ticket. I had never heard of terracing before I started checking out this site. In the USA some college stadiums and minor league baseball have bleachers or bleacher backs since they are cheaper but terracing just seems weird.
Terracing has the greatest atmosphere you can imagine. You have twice as many people standing in the same area than sitting. And when standing people are much more emotional. The atmosphere is more old school if you like. If you've never followed a match in a terracing area, It's somewhat like watching soccer in a large rock concert type of atmosphere, a pretty dense crowd singing, shouting at the referees... etc.
Here where I live our club plays in an 81 years old stadium with a capacity of 21.2000. of which only 3500 are seats. The stadium is well known in germany for it's outstanding atmosphere. Not just because of the terracing, but also because its all so narrow and te spectators are so close to the pitch. I, like many soccerfans here in germany prefer watching a match in the stadium in the terracing areas, since it's just more fun there. The ticket prices for terracing here in germany are usually about half of what a cheaper seat costs and when a terracing area is converted into seating, the conversion rate is usually around 2:1.


Quote:
Originally Posted by weava View Post
3) What sports can be played in what type of stadiums. I know that soccer field is slightly wider than a NFL football field but what about other sports shared stadiums. Baseball and NFL football share some stadiums in the USA but it requires movable stand sections to fit the different dimentions but that trend is going away as MLB and NFL teams have only been building sport specific stadiums recently.
Soccer fields classically can vary in sizes. And in germany even up to today there are stadiums with different sized pitches in proffessional soccer. But for all modern, recently new built stadiums the pitch size is the same, 105m x 68m but the inside must be at east 120m x 80m because the minimum distances between the pitch and the stands is 6m at the sides and 7.5m behind the goals. So the difference between a soccer and an american football field isn't much and there are several stadia here in germany where both can be played, like the commerzbankarena in frankfurt or The stadium in Cologne and some others. Even though american football isn't all that popular here, there are a few cities where they do have attendancies up to over 30000 spectators.

Quote:
Originally Posted by weava View Post
4) Roofs: In the USA baseball is not played rain. NFL football is more exciting in rain/snow so the only stadiums with roofs are normally so they can host basketball/superbowls unless the enviroment is out of the norm like rainy seatlle or hot arizona. So why are roofs such a hot topic for stadiums when they are typiclly seem to not be needed?
Soccer is played in any weather, even when it snows. (Then the mostly white ball is usually replaced with an orange ball.) As long as it's safe and still somehow playable a match bill be played. Some rare times, like in heavy rain or snowfall there is an intermission to get the pitch playable again. So for the visitors a roof is quite an advantage. And some big stadia have fully closable roofs even over the pitch, which I personally don't like all that much in soccer, because I believe it should remain an outdoor sport.

Quote:
Originally Posted by weava View Post
5) Ownership: In different parts of the world who pays for the stadiums, does the local government, private company, or the home teams owners own the stadium. It is a mix in the USA but many teams force the local cities to pay for stadiums since they threaten to move to another city and the city would lose out on the taxes created by the team.
Here in germany it's a mix some stadia belong to the local authorities(cities mostly) and clubs rent them, like in Berlin or Nürnberg, Dresden, then there are clubs that own the stadium they play in like here in Aachen or Gladbach. And some stadia belong to investors, like in Leipzig.
Here in germany local authorites often support their local clubs. And even when a stadium is built and financed only by the club usually the ground and infrastructure is fully provided and paid for by the city.
And clubs with financial problems often sold their stadium to the city and rent it for cheap, that is also quite common, especially in the lower leagues, but even in Kaiserslautern this is the case and they're playing in the second bundesliga in a very large stadium for only 1.75 mio€ rent per year.

Last edited by Alemanniafan; April 26th, 2009 at 02:06 PM.
Alemanniafan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 27th, 2009, 02:16 AM   #34
Horatio Caine
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Stockholm/Miami
Posts: 106
Likes (Received): 8

Quote:
Originally Posted by weava View Post
1) In the USA many outdoor games are played at night which means stadiums require lighting, do most other countries play night games/day games or a mix?
Yes, most normal countries have lightning on their most basic stadiums.
In Spain almost all football games are played in the evening (on saturdays they can start as late as 10 PM!

Quote:
2) What is the point of terracing and what is the ticket cost vs buying a seated ticket. I had never heard of terracing before I started checking out this site. In the USA some college stadiums and minor league baseball have bleachers or bleacher backs since they are cheaper but terracing just seems weird.
It waries alot. In England it costs a small fortune to go to games. In Germany it's really cheap, which is why Germany has the largest attendances in the whole of Europe.

Quote:
3) What sports can be played in what type of stadiums. I know that soccer field is slightly wider than a NFL football field but what about other sports shared stadiums. Baseball and NFL football share some stadiums in the USA but it requires movable stand sections to fit the different dimentions but that trend is going away as MLB and NFL teams have only been building sport specific stadiums recently.
In Europe you never play baseball. American Football can be played on most turfs (not most english though since the stands are so close).

Quote:
4) Roofs: In the USA baseball is not played rain. NFL football is more exciting in rain/snow so the only stadiums with roofs are normally so they can host basketball/superbowls unless the enviroment is out of the norm like rainy seatlle or hot arizona. So why are roofs such a hot topic for stadiums when they are typiclly seem to not be needed?
Almost all newer stadiums have roof over the stands. Even in the most southern parts of Europe it can rain, and rain in january isn't pleasent anywhere. Except Miami.
Retractable roof is only an issue in the north of Europe. I dont know why americans enjoy freezing temperatures and snow in the open, but we dont in Europe. Perhaps it's because you still got the sun (the US is much more south on the planet than Europe), but we like warmer weather if we're required to stay outside.

Quote:
5) Ownership: In different parts of the world who pays for the stadiums, does the local government, private company, or the home teams owners own the stadium. It is a mix in the USA but many teams force the local cities to pay for stadiums since they threaten to move to another city and the city would lose out on the taxes created by the team.
If the city pays for a arena it's always owned by it and there's a great deal of debate before building it.

I think that the american tradition if building stadias for private teams is an eye-sore in the american tradition of freedom and small-government. It's insane that tax payers build a stadium for a private team.
Horatio Caine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 27th, 2009, 03:36 AM   #35
en1044
Unregistered User
 
en1044's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 2,405
Likes (Received): 113

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horatio Caine View Post
I dont know why americans enjoy freezing temperatures and snow in the open, but we dont in Europe. Perhaps it's because you still got the sun (the US is much more south on the planet than Europe), but we like warmer weather if we're required to stay outside.
American football is a very gritty, blue collar sport. The fans are (for the most part) just the same.

Tough it out and enjoy yourself, its all about connecting yourself with your environment. And warm temperatures really dont have anything to do with it, it gets pretty damn cold here in the winter.
__________________
WASHINGTON REDSKINS
en1044 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 27th, 2009, 11:10 AM   #36
Horatio Caine
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Stockholm/Miami
Posts: 106
Likes (Received): 8

Quote:
Originally Posted by en1044 View Post
American football is a very gritty, blue collar sport. The fans are (for the most part) just the same.

Tough it out and enjoy yourself, its all about connecting yourself with your environment. And warm temperatures really dont have anything to do with it, it gets pretty damn cold here in the winter.
That's why I love the Miami Dolphins. Great team and great weather.
Horatio Caine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 30th, 2009, 07:31 AM   #37
dl3000
Registered User
 
dl3000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 418
Likes (Received): 10

Ok to answer terracing Im surprised no one mentioned game duration. American Football lasts around 3 hours per game. Soccer always finishes under 2 hours (with half time and stoppage) unless you have to break a tie. Standing makes more sense when you don't have to do it as long. 90 minutes of playing time and the clock doesn't stop goes by fast.
__________________
"San Diego...drink it in, it always goes down smooth" - Ron Burgundy
dl3000 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 30th, 2009, 02:34 PM   #38
GNU
Gnuru
 
GNU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Brave GNU World
Posts: 2,749
Likes (Received): 35

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby3 View Post
It's cheaper to build and some people like standing for the entire match. Terraces can also hold more. The tickets are cheaper vs. seats.
Its not a financial question. Terraces are merely stands without fitted seats and adding them is not expensive.
GNU no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 30th, 2009, 08:55 PM   #39
zyclope
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 11
Likes (Received): 0

1) In Brazil, weekend matches starts at 4pm or at 6 pm and the matches that happens on the rest of the week (mostly on wednesday and on thursdays but also sometimes on tuesdays) starts at 7:30pm, 8:30pm or eben at 9:50pm.

2) Like was by other people, terracing is all about atmosphere and ticket prices. In the city where I live, the stadium had a drop in capacity by almost 40 000 due seats addition. The stadium held once 132 000 people and had a average attendance of 75 000. Today, the greatests attendances are about 60 000 (very rare) and average attendances are about 40 000. It's not only drop of interest. It's also rise of ticket prices and drop of avaible tickets.

Also, the analogy with a rock concert is verry good. Imagine to shout, sing and jump for your favourite team (and it's crazy how people love the soccer team they like, is something like a religious fanatism), with lits of big flags, fireworks, and so on... it's simply insane. We do belive that this will change our team's performance.

3) Well, today is played just soccer, but some stadiums were planned to held athletics tracks... but they are not used very often. Some stadiums are also used for big concerts.

4) Not all stadium in Brazil have roofs and, if they exist is only for the crowd or for even a part of the crowd. Brazil is a VEEEEEERY hot cowntry that rains quite much too, so roofs are made to protect a little bit... Once I went to a match in a "unroofed" stadium AT NIGHT (about 9 pm) but the seats were still DAMN HOT! So, that's the point of roof here.

5) If the stadium isn't owned by the club (and was built by the club) the stadium is build and owned by the city or state or even by the state soccer federation, for example, Mineirão, the stadium of Belo horizonte, is owned by the Minas Gerais State soccer federation and Cruzeiro and Atletico-MG pay a fee when they play there.
zyclope no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 3rd, 2009, 01:13 AM   #40
Loranga
Hoj!
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Ludvika
Posts: 359
Likes (Received): 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by dl3000 View Post
Ok to answer terracing Im surprised no one mentioned game duration. American Football lasts around 3 hours per game. Soccer always finishes under 2 hours (with half time and stoppage) unless you have to break a tie. Standing makes more sense when you don't have to do it as long. 90 minutes of playing time and the clock doesn't stop goes by fast.
Terraces are also very common in european ice hockey also.
Loranga no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
american, european, roof, stadium

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu