Introducing Tram and Trolley buses in new cities.

[gramercy]

So, what do you think?

Which cities should have
a) entirely new tram networks?
b) extended tram networks?
in Hungary?

Also, I'm OBSESSED with trolley buses, in that they can be much more cost-effective and they are used much more frequently in western europe (for example Luzern, Thun, Montreaux in Switzerland, just to name a few smallER towns).

I think we should make much more use of
natural gas powered buses
hybrid buses and
trolley buses
in (smaller) townes like: Győr, Tatabánya, Székesfehérvár, Pécs, Veszprém, Szombathely, Zalaegerszeg, Nagykanizsa , Eger, Nyíregyháza, Békéscsaba, Kecskemét, Szolnok (to name a 'few').


Going back to the trams:
- the Hévíz-Keszthely tram should definitely be built
- we should also think of a Tokaj-Balatonfüred-Veszprém (light)-rail/tram combo utilizing the (electrified...) railroad, this one could go from Balatonfüred then connect Szentkirályszabadja then go through the centre of Veszprém and terminate at the railroad station on the northern edge

- Kecskemét should have an East-West tram from the Airport (future HSR station(?)) through the centre (station) all the way to the M5
- Pécs should have at least a couple of lines (from the east to the centre, from the west to the centre and from the Airport to the centre)
- Eger seems small, but the railroad station is located all the way to the south, so maybe a single-rail system could work from the station through the centre all the way up to the northern edge
- Nyíregyháza could have a tramway that follows the path of the main ringroad(s), so it could be a big circle, maybe only a single track in the beginning, later complemented with more directions
- i'm not sure about Győr, because it is much smaller than the rest, and fortunately everything is located in the centre so the distances are like 1-2 kms, nevertheless i can think of at least 1 route: Pér airport - future HSR station - downtown

finally, I think we all agree that all 4 cities should extend their networks significantly:
- Miskolc should also have a thirtiary line from the centre to Miskolctaolca, also, they should get rid of the HUGE industrial area in the middle and doing so they could have a new branch from the east-west line coming down here
- Debrecen should also have a third line from the railroad station to the airport, and a fourth from the station to the eastern side of the city
- and finally, Szeged: there are so many possibilities, its amazing. the city's design begs for at least 10-20 kms more

[RawLee]

Tokaj-Balatonfüred-Veszprém?

[Kontúr]

Yeah, I was wondering about that too. I think he meant Tapolca. Regarding other cities I think Szombathely-Köszeg line would also be useful. Győr, Pécs and Hévíz-Keszthely lines are already planned I dont think there is any chance before 2015-2022 maybe Keszthely-Hévíz but defiantly not the others.

[gramercy]

Sorry, I really meant TIHANY: this line would connect:
- Veszprém Station (IC, EC trains etc.)
- middle of Veszprém
- Szentkirályszabadja Airport
- Balatonfüred downtown/port
- Tihany

[Sieg]

I can only speak for Fehérvár here. We used to have plans for a tramline between the two world wars but back then it was cancelled for financial reasons, and later - when articulated buses became popular - there was no further need for tramlines.
During the 2006 elections one of the candidates - Mr. Karsai - campaigned with the idea of building a tram line that would circle the city center and make a detour to the hospital and the railway stations. He didn't get elected...
I think it would be cool to see a few trams on the streets of Fehérvár but I'm not sure of their usefulness. In the city center itself distances are rarely bigger than 1-2 kms, people would rather walk than wait for a tram that comes every 10-15 minutes (because of the limited ridership closer follow-up times would not really be possible). Most people travel to the city from the vast suburbs, where population is scarce and a tram would not be used to its full potential.
Therefore I think Fehérvár does not need a tramline - better said, it would if we had endless money but as we do not, it would be a better idea to set up a really excellent bus transport system. Personally I think the city only needs solo buses, articulated ones are wasteful - however, on the denser lines follow-up times should be decreased from 30-60 minutes to 15-30, only with solo buses instead of articulated ones. A GPS-based info system in the more central stops (and of course integrated information panels in the buses) would be a fine addition and with this Fehérvár would have a perfect transport system for less money than the costs of a tramline.

[gramercy]

Yea, I think you are right in that:
- 1 km of DIGGING UP the entire city can easly cost upwards of 10 bn
- 1 tram probably costs 3-5x as much as an articulated bus


I toyed with the idea of a tramline in Tatabánya, since it is _VERY_ long, ~6-8 kms from end to end depending on how you measure it. But if we take the figure from above, that could easily cost 50 bn or more...in a city with a yearly budget of ~20 bn

Thats why I think we should _heavily_ focus on trolley buses: the catenary wiring can probably be done from ~ 50 m / km, which is like 0.5 % of a tramway's cost, and trolley buses probably only cost 10-30 % more (???) than regular buses

[RawLee]

The wires shouldnt cost much in any city,as where trolleys would probably go,there are streetlamps...so the only cost would be the wires themselves,and the transformator.

[Sieg]

Originally Posted by gramercy

Yea, I think you are right in that:
- 1 km of DIGGING UP the entire city can easly cost upwards of 10 bn
- 1 tram probably costs 3-5x as much as an articulated bus


I toyed with the idea of a tramline in Tatabánya, since it is _VERY_ long, ~6-8 kms from end to end depending on how you measure it. But if we take the figure from above, that could easily cost 50 bn or more...in a city with a yearly budget of ~20 bn

Thats why I think we should _heavily_ focus on trolley buses: the catenary wiring can probably be done from ~ 50 m / km, which is like 0.5 % of a tramway's cost, and trolley buses probably only cost 10-30 % more (???) than regular buses

I am not an expert on this, but I think trolleys are MUCH more expensive than normal buses. I know that a normal solo bus costs approx. 40-50 million HUF. The Solaris trolleys of Budapest cost 100 million. Even if there is a cheaper model available, even if larger order quantities reduce costs, it IS expensive. (Of course they also last longer).
Wires cannot be too expensive but they kinda spoil the cityscape... In general I think trolleys are a good long-term solution but introduction costs are very high (you also have to train drivers/maintenance in a city where such a thing never existed before so you must attract experts, trainers etc. first). Few cities would risk such high costs, especially in this economic climate.
Generally, though, trolleys are the best in hilly cities because the combination of electric engines and rubber wheels are the best for large elevations. This is why they are so popular in Switzerland, but not all Western European cities like them this much. Flat cities like Fehérvár or Kecskemét would profit less from such buses than hilly ones like Veszprém or Pécs.

[gramercy]

Mennyi hely elég egy villamosnak?

[Sieg]

És ez tényleg nem ragadt be azon a sarkon?

[gramercy]

gyanítom azok a kockakövek megvannak már 100 évesek

[HQ]

Originally Posted by gramercy

Mennyi hely elég egy villamosnak?

Akarhanyszor elhajt a villamos, elsodor par embert?!

[AlbertZ]

Sieg, szerintem a sofőrök kiképzése a troligyártó (és leszállító) feladata (legalábbis Szegeden a villamosbeszerzésnél ez egy feltétel). Az lehet, hogy a szerelők betanítása már nem tartozik bele.

Originally Posted by gramercy

Mennyi hely elég egy villamosnak?

nekem ez elég erősen keskenynyomközűnek tűnik (760 mm). Nagyon jól néz ki

[Ultra84]

Originally Posted by gramercy

Mennyi hely elég egy villamosnak?

Le merném fogadni, hogy ez Lisszabon. Mi a nyereményem?

[BND]

Originally Posted by Ultra84

Mi a nyereményem?

index.hu előfizetés

[blogen_]

Állami finanszírozás nélkül szolgáltatna az Orangeways

2009. július 24. péntek 12:06:58

A Volán társaságok legfőbb kifogásával ellentétben állami finanszírozás nélkül működtetné öt új belföldi járatát az Orangeways Zrt. - közölte az Orangeways az MTI-vel pénteken.

Korábban több Volán szakszervezet is levélben kérte Hónig Péter közlekedési, hírközlési és energiaügyi minisztert, hogy ne támogassa a magánvállalat menetrendszerű autóbuszjáratainak indítását, mivel azok elindításával tisztességtelen versenyhelyzet alakulhat ki.

Az Orangeways pénteki közleményében kiemelte: a társaság egy olyan fogyasztói kört céloz meg járataival, amelynek igényeit a jelenlegi állami tömegközlekedési lehetőségek nem elégítik ki, mindezt saját üzleti kockázatára, állami finanszírozási igény nélkül.

A társaság szerint ha a tervezett járatok sértenék is a jelenlegi közszolgáltatók érdekeit, akkor is lehetőségük van kapacitásaikat az átrendeződő igényekhez igazítani, így összességében a vállalat piacra lépése csak csökkentené a Volán társaságok összfinanszírozási igényét.

Az Orangeways arra számít, hogy bár autóbuszjáratainak beindulása esetén mind az öt vonalon az ott jelenleg üzemelő szolgáltatók bevételcsökkenéssel kell hogy számoljanak, a csökkenésnek megfelelő mérsékelt kínálatukkal hatékonyságuk nem feltétlenül romlana, finanszírozási igényük nem növekedne, vagy ha mégis, akkor annál kisebb mértékben, mint amilyen mértékben az Orangeways befizetővé válik majd a központi költségvetés felé.

A vállalat azzal számol, hogy autóbuszai - amelyekből várhatóan 10-30 működhet majd az új vonalakon - és az üzemanyag utáni adók, a mintegy 100 új munkavállaló utáni járulékok, az autópályadíjak, és a remélt nyereség adója révén jelentős befizetővé válhat a költségvetés felé.

Az Orangeways öt célállomásra tervezi prémium járatok bevezetését budapesti indulással: Győrbe, Zalaegerszegre, Miskolcra, Debrecenre és Szegedre.

MTI/Menedzsment Fórum

[Qtya]

What are the deadline for the new tram tenders of Debrecen, Miskolc and Debrecen?

[RawLee]

Na ez érdekes:

"állami finanszírozás nélkül működtetné"

(...)

"ne támogassa a magánvállalat menetrendszerű autóbuszjáratainak indítását, mivel azok elindításával tisztességtelen versenyhelyzet alakulhat ki."

Tisztességtelen versenyhelyzet lenne,ha az Orangeways is kapna pénzt? Most csak a Volán kap,ez így tisztességes? Vagy az én definícióm a piaci versenyről hibás?

[gramercy]

volánokat privatizálni kellett volna már vagy 10 éve

[Sieg]

Én nagyon bírom ezt a céget, a román furgonosoknak is jól megmutatták, mit jelent a kapitalizmus
A MÁV helyett is kéne valami ilyen normális szemléletű személyfuvarozó cég.