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View Poll Results: A qui devraient revenir Sebta, Melilia et les îlots méditerranéens?
Maroc 40 61.54%
Espagne 14 21.54%
C'est aux habitants des 2 villes d'en décider 11 16.92%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 11th, 2013, 11:06 PM   #1941
alserrod
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Let me explain in English the situation of these islands and cities. Maybe it could be interesting for any forumer to learn about them and, obviously entitled to their own opinion.

I've said islands and cities because their status is completely different.

The two cities are considered "autonomous cities". The Spanish constitution (1978) considers all the regions as autonomous regions (or autonomous communities as official name). They are regions with self parliament, self administration, etc... and each region has its own status. For instance, Basque country has its own police for everything except border control and main issues
But these two cities have a status with self autonomy. Nothing special but when the constitution was written... they should have consider these cases.
Let's consider the issue of education. There is an education system but decission about teachers, school, etc... are taken by each region. And in the case of these two cities... it is the own ministry who manages this kind of issues there. Just because it is not considered a region.
In fact I would state that if they would be upgraded to autonomous regions instead of cities, some politicians would avoid a nightmare.

Looking to the word colony and how the UN consider it... it requires to have a territory separated from mainland and with different laws than in the mainland.
Considering that laws to apply are the same ones and because the status, they are the two cities more managed by the "mainland government"... I think that the word "colony" is not the most accurate.
(in fact, several policitians have said that their regions are colonies and that stuff... but I am talking about several historical regions in Spain).


Looking to the islands... the status is absolutely different. Quite, quite different.

All territory in Spain is part of a municipality, managed by a major (maire) and with its town hall (hôtel de ville).
Either little islands.
For instance, these islands are part of Vigo (and BTW, a national park), these ones are from Teguise, Formentera is a whole municipality itself (all villages in the island are the same one).


But... islands close to Africa, to my best knowledge are not part of any municipality (maybe someones I should have to check). They are just managed by the Defense ministry. They have no specific laws because nobody lives there.




I expect these administration information should help someone and I apologize because writting in English. I'm learning French but not enough yet to write so much
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Old November 11th, 2013, 11:46 PM   #1942
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Let me explain in English the situation of these islands and cities. Maybe it could be interesting for any forumer to learn about them and, obviously entitled to their own opinion.

I've said islands and cities because their status is completely different.

The two cities are considered "autonomous cities". The Spanish constitution (1978) considers all the regions as autonomous regions (or autonomous communities as official name). They are regions with self parliament, self administration, etc... and each region has its own status. For instance, Basque country has its own police for everything except border control and main issues
But these two cities have a status with self autonomy. Nothing special but when the constitution was written... they should have consider these cases.
Let's consider the issue of education. There is an education system but decission about teachers, school, etc... are taken by each region. And in the case of these two cities... it is the own ministry who manages this kind of issues there. Just because it is not considered a region.
In fact I would state that if they would be upgraded to autonomous regions instead of cities, some politicians would avoid a nightmare.

Looking to the word colony and how the UN consider it... it requires to have a territory separated from mainland and with different laws than in the mainland.
Considering that laws to apply are the same ones and because the status, they are the two cities more managed by the "mainland government"... I think that the word "colony" is not the most accurate.
(in fact, several policitians have said that their regions are colonies and that stuff... but I am talking about several historical regions in Spain).


Looking to the islands... the status is absolutely different. Quite, quite different.

All territory in Spain is part of a municipality, managed by a major (maire) and with its town hall (hôtel de ville).
Either little islands.
For instance, these islands are part of Vigo (and BTW, a national park), these ones are from Teguise, Formentera is a whole municipality itself (all villages in the island are the same one).


But... islands close to Africa, to my best knowledge are not part of any municipality (maybe someones I should have to check). They are just managed by the Defense ministry. They have no specific laws because nobody lives there.




I expect these administration information should help someone and I apologize because writting in English. I'm learning French but not enough yet to write so much
In three words:

"They are colonized"
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Old November 12th, 2013, 01:56 AM   #1943
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Sebta and Mellila aren't colonies and are definitely not Moroccans .
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Old November 12th, 2013, 03:35 AM   #1944
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Sebta and Mellila aren't colonies and are definitely not Moroccans .
SoubhanAllah.

Finalement le plus gros obstacle a la resolution de certains probléme du Maroc, c'est le marocain lui-même.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 06:30 AM   #1945
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Originally Posted by CasaMor View Post
Nous avons décidé de changer le titre avec Gadiri et adamelstar, vous avez des propositions? Un truc neutre sans provoc'.
Sebta/Ceuta, Melilia/Melilla/Mritch and Mediterranean islets.

This is the most neutral title.

No need to create useless and foolish controversies. Everybody was ok with the title till a disgraced ex-moderator suddenly reappeared after years of inactivity, and now he's acting like he owns the place.

This is an international forum, so cordiality, respect, and neutrality should prevail.

Last edited by jack_shooter; November 12th, 2013 at 06:36 AM.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 06:50 AM   #1946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
But these two cities have a status with self autonomy. Nothing special but when the constitution was written... they should have consider these cases.
Let's consider the issue of education. There is an education system but decission about teachers, school, etc... are taken by each region. And in the case of these two cities... it is the own ministry who manages this kind of issues there. Just because it is not considered a region.
In fact I would state that if they would be upgraded to autonomous regions instead of cities, some politicians would avoid a nightmare.
The best solution for both cities is to grant them a status similar to that of Gibraltar, something more than a mere autonomy. When Spain claims "the rock" it's the local government that responds to these verbal attacks on the sovereignty of Gibralatarians, ...sparing the UK from the inconvenience of getting involved and damaging its relations with another EU member.

Like I said several times here, only Gibraltarians can decide for themselves, and only Ceuties and Melillenses can have a say in all matters that affect them.
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Last edited by jack_shooter; November 12th, 2013 at 06:59 AM.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 08:30 AM   #1947
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Sahraoui View Post
SoubhanAllah.

Finalement le plus gros obstacle a la resolution de certains probléme du Maroc, c'est le marocain lui-même.
Aji dbe7ni .
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Old November 12th, 2013, 08:36 AM   #1948
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack_shooter View Post
The best solution for both cities is to grant them a status similar to that of Gibraltar, something more than a mere autonomy. When Spain claims "the rock" it's the local government that responds to these verbal attacks on the sovereignty of Gibralatarians, ...sparing the UK from the inconvenience of getting involved and damaging its relations with another EU member.

Like I said several times here, only Gibraltarians can decide for themselves, and only Ceuties and Melillenses can have a say in all matters that affect them.
Agree. Makes sense.

The UK is putting the responsibility on to the Government of Gibraltar and if one day this last one decide on a course that is contradictory to the UK strategic interests then the UK government of the day will make sure that it is the UK interests that will prevail.

The same thing will happen for Sebta and Melilia as the majority of its inhabitants would prefer to maintain the status-quo and if one day due to a shift in population, the inhabitants of these 2 cities decide to join Morocco then the government of Spain will make sure the act to protect their interests, which could to actually allow them to join Morocco!!!! See the examples of Hong-Kong and Macau
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Old November 12th, 2013, 08:59 AM   #1949
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doukali View Post
The same thing will happen for Sebta and Melilia as the majority of its inhabitants would prefer to maintain the status-quo and if one day due to a shift in population, the inhabitants of these 2 cities decide to join Morocco then the government of Spain will make sure the act to protect their interests, which could to actually allow them to join Morocco!!!! See the examples of Hong-Kong and Macau
Sebta/Ceuta and Melilia/Melilla already have a Muslim majority (all of them Spanish citizens),....but they're all staunchly pro-Spain, the proof,....both autonomous cities vote massively for the Right-wing Popular Party (70%), more than any region in Spain.

Si it would take much more than a mere demographic shift (which already happened a long time ago)...to convince the populations of these enclaves that being part of Spain is not in their best interest.

Same thing happens with Gibraltar, I think one third of the population are of Spanish origins (many of them descendents of Republicans that fled Franco dictatorship),...but they're all (more than 99% as the last sovereignty referendum showed) pro-UK.

Last edited by jack_shooter; November 12th, 2013 at 11:01 AM.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 10:42 AM   #1950
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Titre mis à jour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jack_shooter View Post
Sebta/Ceuta, Melilia/Melilla/Mritch and Mediterranean islets.

This is the most neutral title.

No need to create useless and foolish controversies. Everybody was ok with the title till a disgraced ex-moderator suddenly reappeared after years of inactivity, and now he's acting like he owns the place.

This is an international forum, so cordiality, respect, and neutrality should prevail.
Mais on est d'accord que pour nous, les marocains, il est plus politiquement correct de mettre un titre qui privilégie la position marocaine.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 10:48 AM   #1951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack_shooter View Post
Sebta/Ceuta and Melilia/Melilla have already a Muslim majority (all of them Spanish citizens),....but they're all staunchly pro-Spain, the proof,....both autonomous cities vote massively for the Right-wing Popular Party (70%), more than any region in Spain.

Si it would take much more than a mere demographic shift (which already happened a long time ago)...to convince the populations of these enclaves that being part of Spain is not in their best interest.

Same thing happens with Gibraltar, I think one third of the population are of Spanish origins (many of them descendents of Republicans that fled Franco dictatorship),...but they're all (more than 99% as the last sovereignty referendum showed) pro-UK.
Then why do Moroccans want to get these cities back ?!
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Old November 12th, 2013, 10:54 AM   #1952
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Old November 12th, 2013, 10:58 AM   #1953
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AceOfSpades View Post
Sebta and Mellila aren't colonies and are definitely not Moroccans .
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack_shooter View Post
Sebta/Ceuta and Melilia/Melilla have already a Muslim majority (all of them Spanish citizens),....but they're all staunchly pro-Spain, the proof,....both autonomous cities vote massively for the Right-wing Popular Party (70%), more than any region in Spain.

Si it would take much more than a mere demographic shift (which already happened a long time ago)...to convince the populations of these enclaves that being part of Spain is not in their best interest.

Same thing happens with Gibraltar, I think one third of the population are of Spanish origins (many of them descendents of Republicans that fled Franco dictatorship),...but they're all (more than 99% as the last sovereignty
referendum showed) pro-UK.
Le Sahara n'est pas Marocain dans ce cas, il n'est pas reconnu comme Marocains, et la majorité des Sahraouis sont pour l'indépendance, il faut etre cohérent entre les faits et les conséquences dans son discours.

Vous ne pouvez pas réclamer un Sahara Marocain, et dans le meme temps Sebta/Melillia comme Espagnole.

Géographiquement, historiquement, culturellement, ethniquement, etc ces deux villes ont la légitimité pour etre Marocaine, au moins autant que le Sahara, la seul chose qui change c'est le statut.

L'Espagne continue toujours de réclamer Gibraltar a UK, l'Etat Marocain ne fait rien ou presque pour récupérer les deux villes pour plusieurs raisons, mais cela ne doit pas empêcher les citoyens Marocains de défendre les intérêts de leur pays.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 11:06 AM   #1954
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jack_shooter, ce n'est très fair pour le Maroc le fait de laisser les habitants des 2 villes décider, ils vont certainement choisir l'Espagne, c'est plus avantageux pour eux et ils ont le Maroc à 2 pas.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 11:37 AM   #1955
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I voted for Morocco because these 2 cities and islands are part of Moroccan mainland! the same way i would vote for Gibraltar to be returned to Spain.

I am not advocating war or violence to get them back because in this case violence is never the best option!
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Old November 12th, 2013, 11:41 AM   #1956
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Y'a pas d'autres priorités pour les modérateurs que de changer des titres?
Il ne s'agit pas pas d'être neutre ou pas. On est sur un forum marocain, et non dans une section internationale. Le titre doit refléter l'opinion de la majorité des membres, et à part quelques uns, l'opinion dominante est que Sebta, Melilia et les îlots sont occupés/colonisés par l'Espagne.

Il ne faut pas chercher à être plus royaliste que le roi (d'Espagne). Non content de tendre la joue aux aldjériens sur ce forum, on doit également adopter la technique de muselage / manipulation favorite des maîtres occidentaux (à savoir la pseudo-neutralité) même sur un forum marocain?
Allez voir sur les forums espagnols ce qu'ils doivent dire de Gibraltar.

Pauvre de nous. Et ensuite on s'étonne que personne ne nous respecte que l'on vraiment, vraiment, vraiment si faibles.
Pitoyable, lamentable et finalement, triste décision.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 11:52 AM   #1957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamelstar View Post
Le Sahara n'est pas Marocain dans ce cas, il n'est pas reconnu comme Marocains, et la majorité des Sahraouis sont pour l'indépendance, il faut etre cohérent entre les faits et les conséquences dans son discours.

Vous ne pouvez pas réclamer un Sahara Marocain, et dans le meme temps Sebta/Melillia comme Espagnole.

Géographiquement, historiquement, culturellement, ethniquement, etc ces deux villes ont la légitimité pour etre Marocaine, au moins autant que le Sahara, la seul chose qui change c'est le statut.

L'Espagne continue toujours de réclamer Gibraltar a UK, l'Etat Marocain ne fait rien ou presque pour récupérer les deux villes pour plusieurs raisons, mais cela ne doit pas empêcher les citoyens Marocains de défendre les intérêts de leur pays.
The only difference is:

-Sebta hasn't belonged to any Moroccan dynasty for more than 700 years (Granada kingdom was not a Moroccan dynasty). Melilla for more than 500 years.

-What is now Western Sahara has always been controlled by Moroccan dynasties, albeit sporadic and sometimes prolonged periods of unruliness (just like the Rif and most Blad, the Atlas and all bled Siba).

-----------

-In Sebta and Melilia, till the 60's the Muslim population was a tiny almost non-existent minority. In fact, according to a late 19th century census, only 17 Muslims lived in Melilia. So who are the original inhabitants of these two enclaves? Would you force old Christian families, the original settlers of the cities, to become Moroccans?

-Sahara was and is populated by Sahrawis, and Sahrawis have always been the Sultans' subjects, hence Moroccans. Before someone here mentions the fact that during parts of the 18th and 19th century the de-facto rule of the Makhzen stopped at Guelmim, .....Half what is now Morocco was Bled Siba, untouched by the direct rule of the Sultan, but no one in his sanity would call for the right to self-determination for Riffians and Chleuhs of the Atlas.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 12:06 PM   #1958
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Originally Posted by CasaMor View Post
jack_shooter, ce n'est très fair pour le Maroc le fait de laisser les habitants des 2 villes décider, ils vont certainement choisir l'Espagne, c'est plus avantageux pour eux et ils ont le Maroc à 2 pas.
Et ce n'est pas fair l'occupation de l'Alsace et le Roussillon par la France, le Texas par les USA, Istambul par la Turquie, etc....jusqu'à l'infini. Si chaque pays réflechit comme ça, on aura bientôt une nouvelle guerre mondiale.

C'est pourquoi je dis: laisse les habitants décider.

Si le Sahara était totalement Independent, ou appartenait à une autre dynastie ou un autre état, et ça depuis des siècles, j'aurais dit la même chose.

Mais le Sahara (Avec la Mauritanie et une partie du sud-ouest algérien),....3ad lbare7 étaient Marocains, ....ce sont des créations artificielles du colonialisme.

Last edited by jack_shooter; November 12th, 2013 at 12:13 PM.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 12:07 PM   #1959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CasaMor View Post
Titre mis à jour.



Mais on est d'accord que pour nous, les marocains, il est plus politiquement correct de mettre un titre qui privilégie la position marocaine.

Puisqu'on est sur un sous-forum Marocain, je metterai même Mritch avant Melilla.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 12:20 PM   #1960
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack_shooter View Post
Et ce n'est pas fair l'occupation de l'Alsace et le Roussillon par la France, le Texas par les USA, Istanbul par la Turquie, etc....jusqu'à l'infini. Si chaque pays réflechit comme ça, on aura bientôt une nouvelle guerre mondiale.

C'est pourquoi je dis: laisse les habitants décider.

Si le Sahara était totalement Independent, ou appartenait à une autre dynastie ou un autre état, et ça depuis des siècles, j'aurais dit la même chose.

Mais le Sahara (Avec la Mauritanie et une partie du sud-ouest algérien),....3ad lbare7 étaient Marocains, ....ce sont des créations artificielles du colonialisme.
Ce n'est pas pareil! Y a un très grand écart de développement (humain, social...) entre le Maroc et l'Espagne. Je pense que si un sebtawi/melili né et ayant grandi à Sebta/Melilia choisit le Maroc c'est plus par patriotisme (influencé par les parents/la famille) ou peut être par extrémisme religieux.
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