daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Development News Forums > General Urban Developments > DN Archives



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old October 21st, 2012, 09:31 AM   #561
soup or man
Avant Garde
 
soup or man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 3,758
Likes (Received): 864

Quote:
Originally Posted by BWYuko View Post
Do you know the means of demolition, Soup? Can't imagine they could dynamite very easily in that location.
Kind of unwise to blow up a building that sits on or near a fault line.
__________________
Far from basic.

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
soup or man no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old October 21st, 2012, 02:50 PM   #562
BWYuko
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 46
Likes (Received): 63

Quote:
Originally Posted by soup or man View Post
Kind of unwise to blow up a building that sits on or near a fault line.
Serious answer please. Most of SoCal's active faults are tens of miles deep in the crust. The 3 extremely shallow ~M3 ruptures near Bev. Hills this year were in the 1-2 mile depth range. The controlled collapse of this or frankly any building anywhere wouldn't get even remotely near affecting seismic activity.

Are they just going to bulldoze from roof to foundation? Wrecking ball? Seems like demo would take a long time with any "large machine" demo. Months.
BWYuko no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2012, 05:14 PM   #563
soup or man
Avant Garde
 
soup or man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 3,758
Likes (Received): 864

I'm totally serious. Ever hear of the Puente Hills fault line?

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar...lt20-2010mar20

But in regards to the demolition of the Wilshire Grand: It's going to be torn down floor by floor.
__________________
Far from basic.

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
soup or man no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2012, 10:22 PM   #564
BWYuko
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 46
Likes (Received): 63

Quote:
Originally Posted by soup or man View Post
I'm totally serious. Ever hear of the Puente Hills fault line?
Yes, more than you. In this USC Geology article, it is thought to be 2-4 miles deep. The official wikipedia entry even states it goes deeper, 8km (almost exactly 5 miles). In either instance, it would take a lot more than the simultaneous collapse of this entire building to even reach the shallowest part of the fault (which doesn't run under the Figuerroa Corridor) let alone trigger any sort of seismic activity. It would require something like several hundred times the force.

Furthermore the LA Times article you cited makes no reference to the fault depth whatsoever.

Floor-by-floor means a long demo. That's too bad :C
BWYuko no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2012, 10:29 PM   #565
PinkFloyd
R.I.P. Chris Cornell
 
PinkFloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Fontana, California
Posts: 881
Likes (Received): 3454

It's a long process but worth it and no doubt will be interesting to watch.
__________________

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
PinkFloyd no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 22nd, 2012, 06:25 AM   #566
Kenni
What?
 
Kenni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: LATAM
Posts: 27,204

Quote:
Originally Posted by soup or man View Post
I'm totally serious. Ever hear of the Puente Hills fault line?

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar...lt20-2010mar20

But in regards to the demolition of the Wilshire Grand: It's going to be torn down floor by floor.
But regardless Soup, detonations above ground don't trigger faults, they have to be a few hundred meters underground, and they don't detonate underground floors when tearing down buildings, they demolish them with heavy machinery.
Kenni no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 22nd, 2012, 06:33 AM   #567
Kenni
What?
 
Kenni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: LATAM
Posts: 27,204

Quote:
Originally Posted by BWYuko View Post
Serious answer please. Most of SoCal's active faults are tens of miles deep in the crust. The 3 extremely shallow ~M3 ruptures near Bev. Hills this year were in the 1-2 mile depth range. The controlled collapse of this or frankly any building anywhere wouldn't get even remotely near affecting seismic activity.

Are they just going to bulldoze from roof to foundation? Wrecking ball? Seems like demo would take a long time with any "large machine" demo. Months.
The more sallow the earthquake, the more dangerous. Epicenters between 10-5 km deep produce the most dangerous earthquakes. The deeper, the least dangerous. Of course relative to the rating, but even a small shallow earthquake is more dangerous because the seismic waves are closer to ground level.

Let's see. The Northridge earthquake (1994), Whittier earthquake in 1987(?), all in small "insignificant faults".
Kenni no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 22nd, 2012, 09:50 AM   #568
BWYuko
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 46
Likes (Received): 63

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenni View Post
The more sallow the earthquake, the more dangerous. Epicenters between 10-5 km deep produce the most dangerous earthquakes. The deeper, the least dangerous.
Okay? That's... obvious ... and unrelated. How does that refute or support my argument against Soup believing the building detonation could in any realistic way trigger such an earthquake?

The region flanking both sides of the San Andreas plate boundary is a web of both known and undiscovered micro-faults. The entire seismic zone is like a massive sheet of fractured glass. The Northridge event was compound blind thrust/strike-slip/probably other faulting; very complex. This fault was unknown at the time of the event, and has since been dubbed the Pico Fault. The rupture itself had a diamond shape, covering a vast portion of the San Fernando Valley: extending east from its epicenter in Reseda, south to Tarzana, north to Simi and west to somewhere in the rocky Ahmanson wilderness. Its focal depth was 18km (11.2 mi) beneath the intersection of Strathern St and Reseda Blvd. The M6.7 was of modest size. It is nowhere near the worst-case scenario for Southern California if the southern segment of the San Andreas were to finally slip. Most buildings that go up in Southern California are code retrofitted to survive that inevitability (which will be in the M7.7-8.0 range if the whole segment goes at once). There are dozens of unknown micro-faults such as the Pico Fault that lie beneath both the Los Angeles and San Francisco metropolitan areas, all along the San Andreas, many likely capable of repeating Northridge, or furthermore triggering the San Andreas slip.

It stands to reason that any event, in its proximity to those observing it, is more severe the closer one is to the shaking, whether that is horizontal or vertical distance. I only argued that there is no conceivable means -- ever -- for the planned collapse of a building this size to in any remote way affect seismic activity. I doubt the Burj Dubai would have such an effect were it subject to collapse. Faults are buried too far in the crust and the force of the toppling debris at terminal velocity is just too insignificant to reach them. As you suggest, however, explosions of human origin WITHIN the earth (e.g. fracking in USA, missile testing in N.K.) have triggered minor quakes in the past. The USGS registers these events and states their origin explicitly as unnatural.

I hope we can keep this thread on the topic of the new beautiful supertall now.
__________________

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
BWYuko no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 22nd, 2012, 06:52 PM   #569
DemolitionDave
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,336
Likes (Received): 208

You may not trigger a fault but you can cause liquefaction.

Actually you try to put as much explosives as you can in the underground floors because you want to totally fragment the columns underground which creates a better respiratory for the debris. It also lowers the cost because you don't have to perform as much covering of the columns to prevent fly of debris as you do on the floors at or above grade.
__________________

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
DemolitionDave no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 22nd, 2012, 07:27 PM   #570
BWYuko
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 46
Likes (Received): 63

Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionDave View Post
Actually you try to put as much explosives as you can in the underground floors because you want to totally fragment the columns underground which creates a better respiratory for the debris. It also lowers the cost because you don't have to perform as much covering of the columns to prevent fly of debris as you do on the floors at or above grade.
Neat. Makes a nice, organized pit full of debris to remove. Learn something new everyday. Some aspects of demolition seem like such fun. I bet a lot of it is tedious, though.
__________________

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
BWYuko no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2012, 04:50 AM   #571
PinkFloyd
R.I.P. Chris Cornell
 
PinkFloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Fontana, California
Posts: 881
Likes (Received): 3454

Curbed

Work officially begins at site of LA's second tallest tower



The 1952 Wilshire Grand hotel finally started for-real coming down today at a big press event at which officials "cut a ceremonial beam out of the building's iconic entrance on Wilshire Blvd." (The building's been closed since last year.) Korean Air is redeveloping the site with an enormous tower (scaled back from two towers)--it'll be 70 stories with a lobby on the top floor and have 900 hotel rooms, 400,00 square feet of office space, and "exciting new restaurants," according to a press release. Those 70 stories will make it second tallest in Los Angeles only to the US Bank building. AC Martin is designing the building, but so far renderings are still pretty sketchy. Deconstruction should take about a year as the building is "dismantled piece-by-piece to allow for recycling of raw materials and [to] reduce traffic impacts to neighbors." The new Wilshire Grand is set to open in 2017.
__________________

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
PinkFloyd no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2012, 05:26 AM   #572
RegentHouse
City Development Shitlord
 
RegentHouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,213
Likes (Received): 769

Quote:
Originally Posted by PinkFloyd View Post
Those 70 stories will make it second tallest in Los Angeles only to the US Bank building.
__________________

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post

Last edited by RegentHouse; October 26th, 2012 at 05:58 PM.
RegentHouse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2012, 06:23 AM   #573
PinkFloyd
R.I.P. Chris Cornell
 
PinkFloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Fontana, California
Posts: 881
Likes (Received): 3454

Quote:
Originally Posted by RegentHouse View Post
Lol. Well the news sites keep saying "2nd tallest" but they only mention the floor count. The actual height in feet or meters hasn't been announced. There's still a chance that it could be the tallest, at least to the spire.
__________________

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post

Last edited by PinkFloyd; October 24th, 2012 at 06:29 AM.
PinkFloyd no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2012, 11:31 PM   #574
Jay
Registered User
 
Jay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: California to Barcelona
Posts: 4,054
Likes (Received): 1863

it looks to be about 920' to the roof and maybe 980 or so the crown and 1000+ with the spire... it could still be a supertall, maybe not quite as much as previously thought though, let's wait for actual figures.
Jay no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2012, 11:36 PM   #575
DemolitionDave
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,336
Likes (Received): 208

Quote:
Originally Posted by BWYuko View Post
Neat. Makes a nice, organized pit full of debris to remove. Learn something new everyday. Some aspects of demolition seem like such fun. I bet a lot of it is tedious, though.
It's all tedious! The lack of a repository for debris is the real reason you don't see many implosions in congested areas like NYC, London, Hong Kong etc.. There is no place for the debris. When you implode a building you average 2'-2 1/2 feet per floor of debris so if you implode a 20 story building you have a pile 40-50' high and the debris has an angle of repose of 2:1. So, in this business basements are good things...
__________________

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
DemolitionDave no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2012, 12:10 AM   #576
Kenni
What?
 
Kenni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: LATAM
Posts: 27,204

Quote:
Originally Posted by BWYuko View Post
Okay? That's... obvious ... and unrelated. How does that refute or support my argument against Soup believing the building detonation could in any realistic way trigger such an earthquake?

The region flanking both sides of the San Andreas plate boundary is a web of both known and undiscovered micro-faults. The entire seismic zone is like a massive sheet of fractured glass. The Northridge event was compound blind thrust/strike-slip/probably other faulting; very complex. This fault was unknown at the time of the event, and has since been dubbed the Pico Fault. The rupture itself had a diamond shape, covering a vast portion of the San Fernando Valley: extending east from its epicenter in Reseda, south to Tarzana, north to Simi and west to somewhere in the rocky Ahmanson wilderness. Its focal depth was 18km (11.2 mi) beneath the intersection of Strathern St and Reseda Blvd. The M6.7 was of modest size. It is nowhere near the worst-case scenario for Southern California if the southern segment of the San Andreas were to finally slip. Most buildings that go up in Southern California are code retrofitted to survive that inevitability (which will be in the M7.7-8.0 range if the whole segment goes at once). There are dozens of unknown micro-faults such as the Pico Fault that lie beneath both the Los Angeles and San Francisco metropolitan areas, all along the San Andreas, many likely capable of repeating Northridge, or furthermore triggering the San Andreas slip.

It stands to reason that any event, in its proximity to those observing it, is more severe the closer one is to the shaking, whether that is horizontal or vertical distance. I only argued that there is no conceivable means -- ever -- for the planned collapse of a building this size to in any remote way affect seismic activity. I doubt the Burj Dubai would have such an effect were it subject to collapse. Faults are buried too far in the crust and the force of the toppling debris at terminal velocity is just too insignificant to reach them. As you suggest, however, explosions of human origin WITHIN the earth (e.g. fracking in USA, missile testing in N.K.) have triggered minor quakes in the past. The USGS registers these events and states their origin explicitly as unnatural.

I hope we can keep this thread on the topic of the new beautiful supertall now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWYuko View Post
Serious answer please. Most of SoCal's active faults are tens of miles deep in the crust. The 3 extremely shallow ~M3 ruptures near Bev. Hills this year were in the 1-2 mile depth range. The controlled collapse of this or frankly any building anywhere wouldn't get even remotely near affecting seismic activity.

Are they just going to bulldoze from roof to foundation? Wrecking ball? Seems like demo would take a long time with any "large machine" demo. Months.
It was mostly in response to this, which I understood as you saying that because the deeper large faults are quite far from LA, that we're "safe" from serious earthquakes, or damaging ones.
Kenni no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2012, 01:08 AM   #577
Eric Offereins
The only way is up
 
Eric Offereins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Rotterdam
Posts: 68,581
Likes (Received): 28145

I have little concern about that. I'd be more interested in the earthquake safety systems in the new tower.
__________________

ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post
Eric Offereins no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2012, 03:38 AM   #578
BWYuko
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 46
Likes (Received): 63

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenni View Post
It was mostly in response to this, which I understood as you saying that because the deeper large faults are quite far from LA, that we're "safe" from serious earthquakes, or damaging ones.
Oh. Well then I accept your apology.
BWYuko no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2012, 03:41 AM   #579
jess2012rocha
Registered User
 
jess2012rocha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 19
Likes (Received): 2

Boy it sucks just thinking it will only be second tallest but nice building though, hopefully we can someday have a taller one that will surpass the US bank, but US bank is my favorite building!
jess2012rocha no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2012, 06:40 AM   #580
PinkFloyd
R.I.P. Chris Cornell
 
PinkFloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Fontana, California
Posts: 881
Likes (Received): 3454

How to Tear Down a 15-Story Hotel







Quote:
DOWNTOWN LOS ANGELES - When a property owner decides to demolish an old building, it’s impossible not to at least consider blowing it up or knocking it over with a crane-suspended wrecking ball.

Chris Martin, the man in charge of dismantling the 61-year-old Wilshire Grand hotel to make room for a 70-story, $1 billion hotel and office tower complex at Seventh and Figueroa streets, sure thought about it.

“People like explosions,” said Martin, whose Martin Project Management is overseeing the project for developer Korean Air. Martin’s architecture firm, AC Martin Partners, is also the architect.

But as Martin imagined an explosion of the hotel, which stands at a key Financial District intersection just across the street from the newly opened Target, his better senses took over. Such a sensation would hurl asbestos-laden materials, not to mention concrete and glass projectiles, into a dense employment hub. So, how long did he really consider blowing it up?

“Oh, about 30 seconds,” Martin said.

Sorry, pyro-enthusiasts: The downfall of the 15-story, 900-room hotel will not be sparked by a mayor pushing down a lever on a TNT box. Instead, the edifice will be carefully “deconstructed” floor-by-floor, piece-by-piece. The work will also be largely obscured from public view by scaffolding and an opaque exterior wrap that will blanket the structure.

“Demolition would have been cost effective in one regard but messy, and we would have had to impact traffic, so we settled on the deconstruction approach,” Martin said. “It takes more time but it’s cleaner and safer, and we get a real good value out of recycling building materials.”

The deconstruction is expected to cost $24 million, but $4 million is estimated to be recouped by selling the salvaged steel, copper and concrete, said Jeff Evans, senior vice president of Martin Project Management.

Floor by Floor

The deconstruction is a three-phase project. Phase one, which is under way, involves “soft demolition,” or the taking down of all the non-load-bearing walls and the elimination of hazardous materials.

The hotel floors have been stripped of most interior walls, with the utility infrastructure removed from the old dropped ceilings. Remnants of metal ducts dangle like robot tentacles.

The lobby is dotted with piles of scrap metal. The floors are a mix of ground-up drywall and bits of concrete that have been moistened to keep dust down. One remaining strip of carpet that leads to a temporary security office is drenched from an overhead leak. Asbestos-laden dust is sucked out via industrial fans affixed to the exterior of the structure. The contaminants are filtered out as the air exits and reserved for careful removal, Martin said

The demolition is being handled by Turner Construction and several subcontractors, and next month crews will transition into phase two, when heavy machinery and two giant cranes will dismantle the hotel floors, starting from the top. Small, tractor-like machines will be hoisted onto the upper levels of the building, where they will drill through concrete walls and platforms. Then, torches will be used to cut through steel beams. The cranes will ferry the heavy pieces to a street-level bin and the metal will be trucked away for recycling.
...
Full article: LA Downtown News
__________________

Shrimpo7, ChuckScraperMiami#1 liked this post

Last edited by PinkFloyd; October 25th, 2012 at 07:10 AM.
PinkFloyd no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
dtla, korean air group, los angeles, south figueroa street, wilshire boulevard, wilshire grand center, wilshire grand tower

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu